12-08-14 06:40 AM
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  1. Matt Jude's Avatar
    IMHO flash is bloated and obsolete, being superseded by native HTML5. I understand the above concerns, but its a push in the right direction.
    11-24-14 02:29 AM
  2. dejanh's Avatar
    IMHO flash is bloated and obsolete, being superseded by native HTML5. I understand the above concerns, but its a push in the right direction.
    It's good that you put IMHO, otherwise I may have thought you were serious. Bloated? Absolutely. Obsolete? About the equivalent of saying the Earth is flat.

    This is a ridiculous cost cutting measure that is actually making the platform substantially less usable. If at least BlackBerry threw us a bone here by substantially expanding the native application portfolio to compensate for the loss of Flash I'd be less inclined to complain. Instead, new devices (like the Passport) are physically more capable, but practically becoming less useful than ever. Passport has virtually no native apps, the portfolio has barely expanded since the launch, virtually everything has to be installed from one of many Android stores, and now we're about to lose Flash, officially. Regression much?

    @eyesopen1111 - really appreciate your posts above. You're bang on.

    Finally, I know someone above said that they don't believe BlackBerry will try to fly this one under the radar. I'm very much of an opinion that this is the only way they can fly this one. The last thing you want to do if you're BlackBerry is advertise that you're taking core features away and making your devices substantially less usable. People already have a perception that BlackBerry devices are limited in capabilities. Saying "now we're more limited" is a bad idea. If you fly it under the radar you prevent any voices of opposition from unifying for at least a few months if at all. Mass confusion works in BlackBerry's favor on this one.

    Posted via CB10
    eyesopen1111 likes this.
    11-24-14 10:14 AM
  3. eyesopen1111's Avatar
    IMHO flash is bloated and obsolete, being superseded by native HTML5. I understand the above concerns, but its a push in the right direction.
    Obsolete? That's precisely the problem--flash is NOT obsolete. Flash would be obsolete if BlackBerry users could access all the content with only HTML5 that we can with HTML5 + flash support. But can we?

    Look at all of the content and scenarios discussed in this thread that still require flash and the answer is obvious. The reality is that there is still much Web content and many use scenarios that only flash will display, so HTML5 alone is not and has never been a full replacement for flash support.

    Another problem for those arguing flash obsolescence is that flash isn't going away anytime soon because flash content is still being actively produced by many participants and it is still (and will continue to be) consumed all over the Web with desktops, laptops, etc.

    So let's stop the fairy tale that HTML5 alone has fully replaced flash support, because it hasn't. And since it hasn't, the loss of flash would be a big and needless step backwards, not a step forwards.

    Z-30 / STA100-5 / 10.3.0.1418 / T-Mobile USA
    11-24-14 10:22 AM
  4. conite's Avatar
    Do you guys honestly think BlackBerry has not done a full business case analysis on this?

    No one has responded to this point. $x from people leaving platform compared to $y in ongoing development and licensing fees. Compute.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.1.1151
    11-24-14 10:31 AM
  5. dejanh's Avatar
    Do you guys honestly think BlackBerry has not done a full business case analysis on this?

    No one has responded to this point. $x from people leaving platform compared to $y in ongoing development and licensing fees. Compute.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.1.1151
    Yes, I honestly think that BlackBerry has not done a full business case analysis on this. Maybe on a napkin? You give corporations to much credit. Work on the operations side of a few businesses high enough and you'll see how many decisions are made without actually doing an analysis.

    Posted via CB10
    fadi.alsaidi likes this.
    11-24-14 10:41 AM
  6. conite's Avatar
    Yes, I honestly think that BlackBerry has not done a full business case analysis on this. Maybe on a napkin? You give corporations to much credit. Work on the operations side of a few businesses high enough and you'll see how many decisions are made without actually doing an analysis.

    Posted via CB10
    OK. So your argument now has whittled down to "BlackBerry is incompetent, and I know better". Well, I guess this discussion is over. I don't really know how to respond rationally to that. I can't speak to whether you're right or wrong on this.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.1.1151
    GPuba and Supa_Fly1 like this.
    11-24-14 10:48 AM
  7. dejanh's Avatar
    OK. So your argument now has whittled down to "BlackBerry is incompetent, and I know better". Well, I guess this discussion is over. I don't really know how to respond rationally to that. I can't speak to whether you're right or wrong on this.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.1.1151
    BlackBerry has demonstrated time and time again that they do have competence issues. Perhaps the new management is better, however seeing as nothing in regards to Flash being killed off has been announced, or even so much as hinted at, coupled with the fact that removal of *any* features from BlackBerry 10 just further cripples the platform (remember, BlackBerry has no substitute in the form of apps, unlike other platforms) does lead to a logical conclusion that this was a cost cutting measure and nothing more. After all, most are convinced that HTML5 is the way to go, except for the fact that this is not valid today because reality is that Flash is everywhere. The market has created an environment in which you don't have to do a cost-benefit analysis of removing Flash. You just have to fall back to the HTML5 argument, throw in some "Flash is insecure and bloated", and finish it off with "everyone else has already moved on" to mask regression under the guise of progress.

    The "I know better" part, I disagree with. It isn't about knowing better. I'm simply observing the facts and drawing my own conclusions from that, which happen to be supported by my actual real-life work experience. I could be wrong but I can also tell you that we will likely never find out. If this is kept quiet, Flash on BlackBerry 10 will die off without much fuss and that will be it. Heck, even I continue to use my BlackBerry 10 device with 10.3.1 and no Flash. I've just come to terms with the fact that it is no longer there and my device is now more limited than ever. I'm far from happy about it, and I still very much feel that it is a big loss to BlackBerry, however at this stage the discussion is purely academic. The decision has been made and we won't be going back.

    Posted via CB10
    sylvaing likes this.
    11-24-14 11:12 AM
  8. D3C0D3R's Avatar
    Do you guys honestly think BlackBerry has not done a full business case analysis on this?

    No one has responded to this point. $x from people leaving platform compared to $y in ongoing development and licensing fees. Compute.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.1.1151
    Just sayin, but this still isn't an official release and not a single peep from BlackBerry \:|/ nooooobody has confirmed this is for sure

    Praise be unto our Lord Squircle | Passport SQW100-1/10.3.0.1418
    11-24-14 11:47 AM
  9. sayf777's Avatar
    Silence on the front page of CB says one of three things imo, 1. BlackBerry are still deciding, or 2. They already have removed it permanently.


    Or possibly they don't care to say anything?


    Posted via CB10
    11-25-14 02:19 AM
  10. conite's Avatar
    Silence on the front page of CB says one of three things imo, 1. BlackBerry are still deciding, or 2. They already have removed it permanently.


    Or possibly they don't care to say anything?


    Posted via CB10
    With 8 successive 10.3.1 leaks and no flash, it would seem inconceivable that it would suddenly appear on the eve of official release - particularly since it's part of the OS and not the browser UI bar file.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.1.1133
    ppeters914 likes this.
    11-25-14 08:10 AM
  11. sayf777's Avatar
    True, one can only hope.

    Posted via CB10
    11-25-14 08:17 AM
  12. Supa_Fly1's Avatar
    BlackBerry is not like other platforms. They have tons of developers. One way or another their is another way of delivering media contain over the app. I only use flash for media streaming.

    Why so concerned about security now when flash was available from the day 1 bb10 was born.


    Posted via CB10
    You've clearly not seen the multiple flash security updates for the desktop alone in the last 60 days!

    Embedding a solution means you cannot update without updating the core BB10 which means end users must wait for providers to test and ratify against their own bloatware & services. Furthermore you've never seen the BB10 browser in BlackBerry World have you? Enterprises rarely use flash on internal sites, and are moving away from such.

    Flash is free as a plug-in for end users, yet a per machine license cost.

    BlackBerry - Accept no substitute. Period!
    11-25-14 09:02 AM
  13. Supa_Fly1's Avatar
    BlackBerry has demonstrated time and time again that they do have competence issues. Perhaps the new management is better, however seeing as nothing in regards to Flash being killed off has been announced, or even so much as hinted at, coupled with the fact that removal of *any* features from BlackBerry 10 just further cripples the platform (remember, BlackBerry has no substitute in the form of apps, unlike other platforms) does lead to a logical conclusion that this was a cost cutting measure and nothing more. After all, most are convinced that HTML5 is the way to go, except for the fact that this is not valid today because reality is that Flash is everywhere. The market has created an environment in which you don't have to do a cost-benefit analysis of removing Flash. You just have to fall back to the HTML5 argument, throw in some "Flash is insecure and bloated", and finish it off with "everyone else has already moved on" to mask regression under the guise of progress.

    The "I know better" part, I disagree with. It isn't about knowing better. I'm simply observing the facts and drawing my own conclusions from that, which happen to be supported by my actual real-life work experience. I could be wrong but I can also tell you that we will likely never find out. If this is kept quiet, Flash on BlackBerry 10 will die off without much fuss and that will be it. Heck, even I continue to use my BlackBerry 10 device with 10.3.1 and no Flash. I've just come to terms with the fact that it is no longer there and my device is now more limited than ever. I'm far from happy about it, and I still very much feel that it is a big loss to BlackBerry, however at this stage the discussion is purely academic. The decision has been made and we won't be going back.

    Posted via CB10
    Same old rhetoric. 'flash is everywhere'. What version is supported on which sites is the issue! Security is another. Many Corporate internal platforms, such as Sharepoint, use Silver light & java (yet another constant update nightmare) to render intranet sites.

    Flash is not everywhere and not only old and antiquated, it costs businesses license fees to maintain for content creation hosting and deploying, major costs that could be saved.

    BlackBerry - Accept no substitute. Period!
    ppeters914 likes this.
    11-25-14 09:27 AM
  14. dejanh's Avatar
    Same old rhetoric. 'flash is everywhere'. What version is supported on which sites is the issue! Security is another. Many Corporate internal platforms, such as Sharepoint, use Silver light & java (yet another constant update nightmare) to render intranet sites.

    Flash is not everywhere and not only old and antiquated, it costs businesses license fees to maintain for content creation hosting and deploying, major costs that could be saved.

    BlackBerry - Accept no substitute. Period!
    *yawn* *looks around* Oh ya, sorry, I got distracted there for a second with all the bull**** rolling down from the bull**** mountain. Yeah, Flash is everywhere, in fact probably more today than ever before. There is a very real reason why HTML5 has had such long, drawn out adoption. Why move away from something that works? Oh and those enterprises that you speak of that cost license fees to host and develop, sure, however they also have trained staff already working for them that know how to develop Flash. Cost of hiring new staff or retraining far exceed the licensing costs you speak of. Furthermore, the security argument is getting incredibly old. While there have been many vulnerabilities discovered in Flash over the years, it's hardly the case that users or corporations all over are affected by it. Patch and move on. Moreover, HTML5 is unproven, and just like any other technology, it too will suffer from a ton of vulnerabilities that will require patching. Remember when everyone was saying Mac can't have any exploits or malware? It's all about marketshare.

    So please spare me the nonsense. If BlackBerry didn't have Flash and was adding it in I'm sure you'd be singing praises about how amazing they are and how in tune they are that so many organizations and so much content uses Flash.

    Posted via CB10
    11-25-14 10:04 AM
  15. -Puck-'s Avatar
    I haven't used flash in years. Even on older builds that supported it, I had it disabled. No difference in my browsing experience, always in Desktop Mode.

    HTML is faster and much better suited to mobile devices. I can't wait for Flash to be gone for good.

    Posted in CB10 from my amazing Passport
    11-25-14 10:21 AM
  16. khehl's Avatar
    I haven't used flash in years. Even on older builds that supported it, I had it disabled. No difference in my browsing experience, always in Desktop Mode.

    HTML is faster and much better suited to mobile devices. I can't wait for Flash to be gone for good.

    Posted in CB10 from my amazing Passport
    Funny that you say that, you shouldn't have mentioned desktop mode. Now everyone knows your flat out lying or don't use browser at all.

    Thanks for coming out

    This is YouTube on desktop mode

    Attachment 316859
    eyesopen1111 likes this.
    11-25-14 11:49 AM
  17. Supa_Fly1's Avatar
    *yawn* *looks around* Oh ya, sorry, I got distracted there for a second with all the bull**** rolling down from the bull**** mountain. Yeah, Flash is everywhere, in fact probably more today than ever before. There is a very real reason why HTML5 has had such long, drawn out adoption. Why move away from something that works? Oh and those enterprises that you speak of that cost license fees to host and develop, sure, however they also have trained staff already working for them that know how to develop Flash. Cost of hiring new staff or retraining far exceed the licensing costs you speak of. Furthermore, the security argument is getting incredibly old. While there have been many vulnerabilities discovered in Flash over the years, it's hardly the case that users or corporations all over are affected by it. Patch and move on. Moreover, HTML5 is unproven, and just like any other technology, it too will suffer from a ton of vulnerabilities that will require patching. Remember when everyone was saying Mac can't have any exploits or malware? It's all about marketshare.

    So please spare me the nonsense. If BlackBerry didn't have Flash and was adding it in I'm sure you'd be singing praises about how amazing they are and how in tune they are that so many organizations and so much content uses Flash.

    Posted via CB10
    LMAO ... see it's true children resort to name calling and cursing when faced with intelligent opposition or when they have no other factoids to defend baseless statements.

    Apple, and BlackBerry do not use Flash on their sites any longer; do an exhaustive search. That is just simple two sites without breathing ... so using the word 'EVERYWHERE' by it's definition is incorrect.

    Secondly you have no idea why HTML5 took so long because you don't know the real reason, stop speculating.

    Third ... you obviously know NOTHING of I.T. in an Enterprise/Corporation ... Adobe Flash as a product or part of the Creative Suite of applications is based on a LICENSE! It is NOT FREE for corporate use and it's per user license - made the mistake of stating machine license earlier, so here is the correction. Corporations are audited and thus have short time for license payments ... I know of a certain 3rd largest global gold producer that was audited just 2.5yrs ago and paid a hefty fine just for Adobe Acrobat alone!!

    Existing employees are you stated already know how to use Flash ... so the cost of training doesn't make sense to even mention in your argument. The licenses are not one and done, it's software, level of content used and deployed. users/employees come and go in this industry and usually have dual purpose ... most of these coders are contractors ... you need about 2 to a very small team to maintain once deployed, contract several to code and deploy, submit the code in full and how it was implemented, have it checked by the employees to ensure when contractors leave it's all resolvable when things go awry. Much cheaper to higher a student in Uni vs a veteran for coding in Flash for a corporate site vs an application.

    ^ Case in point ... many of the coders, including the founder of Torch - the creators of the BlackBerry Browser (used since BBOS 6) have left.

    Creating content with Flash is a COST not FREE. Stop being a child and research your debate.

    Again I'll re-iterate you know NOTHING of I.T.!

    You don't simply just patch and move on in a corporation ... you must understand the USE of a software or program and it's use in delvered services. Many corporations have features or software that depend on java or flash that cannot simply be upgraded because it breaks the delivered service front end from being usable. Sometimes content is hosted in a VM or RDP or Citrix session where patching is not compatible with the service. Furthermore some configurations with the plug-in may no longer be present ... again pointing to my personal experience where corporations don't keep Flash coders still on hand for eventualities ... because well end users upgrade due to being click happy. It's roughly the same kind of experience an intranet site doesn't render certain buttons or tables in IEv10/11 when it does in IE8/9.

    I formerly sung the praises of Flash in the browser in BB10 when I used it less and less - notice it's OFF by default in every public OS build released officially - since the rendering of the pages I've visited where more responsive and used less power - I browser 6hrs a day consistently!

    and HTML5 is proven it's been in use since development over the past 4 years on various websites, so spare me the nonesense you're spreading FUD.

    The more web coders follow international and device agnostic standards for web content coding and stop worrying about services being hallowed by one mobile platform over another - ahem Instagram - the better the internet will be. As it stands the internet is already resembling human fallacy of first and second class citizens, class structures (resembling clout), etc. And you want this to continue.

    Consider my points deeply before you even bother to quote or reply.
    11-25-14 12:26 PM
  18. dejanh's Avatar
    ^ TL; DR - Same old arguments, Flash is insecure, HTML5 is the future, some ad-hominem attacks, cost, yada, yada, so on and so forth. Not interested. Flash is gone, it's a loss for BlackBerry. Makes the platform less interesting than it already is because now it can do even less. Will I continue using BlackBerry? Yes. Do I like that a core feature is removed? Absolutely not. It's the same as Sony removing Other OS. You sold devices with Flash so continue to support it as long as you support OS updates for those devices. I'm tired of the BlackBerry defense force defending every dumb move the company makes. Come back and talk to me when we have the app developers' support sufficient to compensate for the shortcomings of the platform. The entire "we're business" adage is old and worn out. Nobody will carry two devices any more unless they are mandated.
    Blue Hef likes this.
    11-25-14 01:31 PM
  19. 1magine's Avatar
    This is all so much in recent history, I would have thought that most on here would know what happened with flash and not bought into so much market manipulation. So here's what happened: Flash was everywhere. It was the number one choice for all sorts of applications and especially streaming media. Then Real Player stepped in and thought they could make some bucks. And then Apple stepped in with Quicktime. Quicktime won over allot of fans, especially recording artists who found that the quality was better than Flash. Then Apple launched its now infamous (at least among ad folks) campaign of insecurity. 'Only Apple devices are virus free', only 'Apple can properly secure content'. Apple continued to push in every direction every negative implication with regard to Flash as they could. So much so, that here we are years later and folks still think that flash is too bloated and insecure and on its way out. Of course this is just the height of silliness. There is no streaming media delivery system that is not heavily coded and subject to various hacking. Same as any OS or any digital tool - - the more places it's used and the more folks that use it, the more likely it is someone will target it's coding. But stop for just a moment and look around outside your own head. The internet is not filled with Real Player streaming. Mobile devices never adopted or used Quick Time. No municipalities in the USA are using Silverlight on their websites. BB has used Flash on their browser form more than a year. It is not slow, bloated or insecure. Flash is utilized on more sites and for more media streaming than any other tool - - including HTML5, 3 years after everyone "agreed" that it was the future. In 5 years, every website may move away from flash. But for right now - flash is still the main choice for streaming media on the internet.

    So - - let's not waste another byte of space by arguing that Sadam Hussein planned 9-11 - err that Flash is a waste. Flash is clearly useful and easily and well coded into the BB10 browser. Discussion should be cenetered on whether removing Flash, which is clearly a monetary decision is a going to save more in dollars than it will lose?

    And, quite frankly this is not a long discussion. BB made a financial decision to save money. Most of us flash supporters think that it is the wrong decision - not that BB won't save a few dollars, but that it sufficiently harms existing good will and further homogenizes its brand. Loss of good will in my opinion was what cost BBRY so dearly. BB made lots of decisions in 2007-2009 that were pretty poor, but most of them were based on a feeling that they could do what they wanted with regard to existing BES users - - because, where would they go? They delivered poor products and poor support and the first chance many folks got to jump ship (2011-2014); they did. They lost market share in 2012, 2013 and 2014 - even though they had equal to better products. But consumers have memories and don't want to know from BB anymore. In fact, I am personally always shocked when people can't understand the anti-BB vitriol. It is as if they didn't live through those years when BB told BES consumers to 'just deal with it'.

    Will BB save more money in 2015 than they will lose to users migrating because loss of flash? Of course they will. Is that a good business decision? In my opinion, no.
    khehl likes this.
    11-25-14 02:22 PM
  20. eyesopen1111's Avatar
    While some have claimed that they don't personally use flash, there seems to be no dispute that there is a substantial amount of flash content on the Web. And we all agree that users with flash support can access this flash content on their BB10 devices, but importantly, users without flash support on their BB10 devices are left with no support of this content.

    So how is it good news to have less content support?

    Obviously, it isn't good news.

    So, what are the apologists for a diminished, non-flash browser experience saying? They say nothing that addresses the support failure that is created by dropping flash, that's for sure.

    Some say they don't care because they personally never use flash. An egocentric analysis, but I assume it's honest.

    Some hypothesize that the financial cost-benefit analysis suggested the change. This analysis admits that flash is a value and that its loss matters, but they argue that the various savings are more important than customer satisfaction (and relatedly, customer defection). I disagree.

    IMHO, Chen wants to sell BlackBerry just as desperately as Thorsten Heins ever did. Growing companies sacrifice profit in order to grow users; BlackBerry is doing the opposite. Why? I think he's trying desperately to be quickly profitable as a sales effort to get this company sold ASAP. That's why the short term focus. That's why he talks about ruining BBM with ads before it has solidified its place. That's why he cuts the investment in developer relations, software licenses, etc.

    Z-30 / STA100-5 / 10.3.0.1418 / T-Mobile USA
    1magine, khehl and dejanh like this.
    11-25-14 03:38 PM
  21. khehl's Avatar
    Sad to say it but I'm with eyesopen111 on this.

    But completely wrong with the Heins part. If BlackBerry was doing amazing under him and he wasn't forced to leave. He would have never considered selling it. His vision was amazing but CEO of the company wasn't the right spot for him.

    Chen on the other hand, judging by what he is currently doing and his history: he is building up the company to sell in my eyes. I could be completely wrong but at least right now for me it's hard to think otherwise.

    Anyways, I'm off topic. Carry on

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by khehl; 11-25-14 at 06:55 PM.
    eyesopen1111 likes this.
    11-25-14 04:57 PM
  22. dejanh's Avatar
    @eyesopen111 - once again, very well put.

    Posted via CB10
    11-25-14 06:49 PM
  23. -Puck-'s Avatar
    Funny that you say that, you shouldn't have mentioned desktop mode. Now everyone knows your flat out lying or don't use browser at all.

    Thanks for coming out

    This is YouTube on desktop mode

    Attachment 316859
    Try again buddy. Desktop mode, 10.3.1.1151 leak. Youtube works fine, it has been HTML5 for ages.

    Posted in CB10 from my amazing Passport

    Edit: Your attachment didn't work so let me help ya out. This is YouTube on Desktop Mode
    Flash Usefulness-img_20141125_200508.jpg
    Flash Usefulness-img_20141125_200549.jpg
    Last edited by -Puck-; 11-25-14 at 08:18 PM.
    11-25-14 08:07 PM
  24. khehl's Avatar
    Try again buddy. Desktop mode, 10.3.1.1151 leak. Youtube works fine, it has been HTML5 for ages.

    Posted in CB10 from my amazing Passport

    Edit: Your attachment didn't work so let me help ya out. This is YouTube on Desktop Mode
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_20141125_200508.jpg 
Views:	155 
Size:	74.4 KB 
ID:	316936
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_20141125_200549.jpg 
Views:	155 
Size:	170.2 KB 
ID:	316937
    now play a video and show us on desktop mode. Every single video stream on desktop mode is flash. I promise you that. Try to disable Flash from your Chrome browser at home. HTML5 isn't used in desktop as much as you think it is, sure it might dominate mobile mostly because flash support is discontinued but isn't used as much in desktop.
    11-25-14 09:21 PM
  25. DickDorf's Avatar
    This was supposed to be a reply to a previous comment, dammit!

    Just a quick note on Netflix, it was removed temporarily on the Passport (was still available on my Z10) and after contacting Amazon, I got quick help, quick replies and Netflix is back. Although I'm not sure I like the recent update as I can't choose widescreen 16:9 video anymore. But it is back in my apps on the Amazon app store.

    Rockin a Passport and Z30! Two devices are better than 1!
    11-25-14 09:26 PM
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