06-03-15 12:41 PM
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  1. conite's Avatar
    I'm talking about 10.3 in general - it's full of bugs. If this anti-rollback feature had been implemented in 10.3, there'd be a lot of seriously unhappy campers.
    Don't confuse OS bugs with OTA-induced bugs.

    Frankly I think 10.3.2.680 is the best OS BlackBerry has ever put out.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.680
    kayuz6 and habs_fan like this.
    06-01-15 03:59 PM
  2. thurask's Avatar
    I'm in Canada, I don't fancy having the laws of the People's Republic of California imparted on me.
    Perhaps, but a large market (larger than Canada, mind you) having such a law in place would force the hand of any phone company that plans on doing business there.
    06-01-15 04:00 PM
  3. kayuz6's Avatar
    Don't confuse OS bugs with OTA-induced bugs.

    Frankly I think 10.3.2.680 is the best OS BlackBerry has ever put out.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.680
    I'm somewhat willing to agree with you
    06-01-15 04:03 PM
  4. ssbtech's Avatar
    I don't think it's full of bugs..
    Tell that to the Z30 owners who had their phones brick when the battery drained flat after upgrading to 10.3
    Or the numerous reports of problems with the hotspot
    Or the phone that keeps ringing after it's been answered
    Or those having WiFi problems

    Then there are those of us who simply hate the new UI, missing features in the calendar, the stupid BB Assistant in place of the simple search, etc... the list goes on.

    I had 10.3.1 on my Z10 for about 30 minutes before I had to spend the rest of the afternoon rolling back to 10.2.1. If I was locked into 10.3.1 with no way to roll back, I'd be right pissed off.
    playfoot likes this.
    06-01-15 04:16 PM
  5. Kaacz's Avatar
    Perhaps, but a large market (larger than Canada, mind you) having such a law in place would force the hand of any phone company that plans on doing business there.
    Yes. Country with stupid people make laws for stupid people.

    What about MY decision? As user/owner with functional BRAIN..
    - when I have Protect ENABLED, lets work it as is designed in 10.3.2 ..
    - when I have Protect DISABLED, lets it possible to load any version of OS ...

    Force protect against owner decision is stupid law...
    ssbtech and playfoot like this.
    06-01-15 06:54 PM
  6. conite's Avatar
    Yes. Country with stupid people make laws for stupid people.

    What about MY decision? As user/owner with functional BRAIN..
    - when I have Protect ENABLED, lets work it as is designed in 10.3.2 ..
    - when I have Protect DISABLED, lets it possible to load any version of OS ...

    That doesn't solve the problem. If thieves know that phones would be useless to them regardless of how the owner uses his phone, then it is not likely to get stolen. You saw the stats. It protects others - not just you. Sort of like vaccinations - it provides herd immunity.

    30-40% of ALL robberies in major cities involve electronic devices. These are serious numbers. People are getting hurt and in some instances, killed, over this stuff.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.680
    habs_fan likes this.
    06-01-15 06:58 PM
  7. ssbtech's Avatar
    Requiring a device password before an autoloader would be permitted to wipe the device would still satisfy the security requirements.

    It's absurd to prevent users from rolling back an OS.
    06-01-15 07:04 PM
  8. conite's Avatar
    Requiring a device password before an autoloader would be permitted to wipe the device would still satisfy the security requirements.

    It's absurd to prevent users from rolling back an OS.
    But the new security features, required by law, are only coded into version 10.3.2 and above. If you install an older OS, the security feature is no longer there.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.680
    06-01-15 07:06 PM
  9. ssbtech's Avatar
    The law also states this:

    (2) An authorized user of a smartphone may affirmatively elect
    to disable or opt-out of enabling the technological solution at any
    time. However, the physical acts necessary to disable or opt-out
    of enabling the technological solution may only be performed by
    the authorized user or a person specifically selected by the
    authorized user to disable or opt-out of enabling the technological
    solution.
    06-01-15 07:15 PM
  10. conite's Avatar
    The law also states this:

    (2) An authorized user of a smartphone may affirmatively elect
    to disable or opt-out of enabling the technological solution at any
    time. However, the physical acts necessary to disable or opt-out
    of enabling the technological solution may only be performed by
    the authorized user or a person specifically selected by the
    authorized user to disable or opt-out of enabling the technological
    solution.
    All this is fine, but it also explicitly states that the implementation "shall be able to withstand a hard reset or operating system downgrade" if enabled. If you are on an OS prior to 10.3.2, then this function cannot be enabled. Therefore it would not be legal. The security features must also be available by default. Again, if you are on a previous OS this is no longer possible.

    Look, BlackBerry, Android, and iOS are all on board (along with their lawyers). It is what it is. They've agreed to it, they have implemented it, it is happening. Move on.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.680
    habs_fan and Fret Madden like this.
    06-01-15 07:27 PM
  11. sylvaing's Avatar
    To be fair, they released this 'update full of bugs' only to selected voluntary beta testers as of yet. Flash is available btw Missing Adobe Flash on 10.3.1? Here's the best way to get it back! | CrackBerry.com
    And on my Passport, it's been rock solid. No issue whatsoever. Would not go back even if I could.

    Posted via CB10
    06-01-15 07:46 PM
  12. ssbtech's Avatar
    All this is fine, but it also explicitly states that the implementation "shall be able to withstand a hard reset or operating system downgrade" if enabled. If you are on an OS prior to 10.3.2, then this function cannot be enabled. Therefore it would not be legal. The security features must also be available by default. Again, if you are on a previous OS this is no longer possible.

    So give me, the AUTHORIZED user, the ability to disable it and downgrade.

    And it's only illegal to sell a phone without the feature, not illegal to use it. So it'd be perfectly legal for me to use a phone without that protection scheme.
    06-01-15 08:41 PM
  13. hindsketchup238's Avatar
    Ever since I loaded 10.3.2.680 I keep getting this when I open BBM
    Cannot go back to 10.3.1-img_20150601_214409.png

    My Canadian Passport
    06-01-15 08:47 PM
  14. conite's Avatar
    And it's only illegal to sell a phone without the feature, not illegal to use it. So it'd be perfectly legal for me to use a phone without that protection scheme.
    So you propose two branches of the OS from here forward? One for devices for sale and another for devices already sold? Beyond the onerous logistics of that, do you not think that that loophole would be quickly closed by law, since that is certainly trying to circumvent the spirit of the legislation?

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.680
    06-01-15 09:12 PM
  15. anon(9208252)'s Avatar
    Ever since I loaded 10.3.2.680 I keep getting this when I open BBM
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	IMG_20150601_214409.png 
Views:	1002 
Size:	35.8 KB 
ID:	355567

    My Canadian Passport
    wipe your phone and set up again.
    06-01-15 09:34 PM
  16. ssbtech's Avatar
    So you propose two branches of the OS from here forward? One for devices for sale and another for devices already sold? Beyond the onerous logistics of that, do you not think that that loophole would be quickly closed by law, since that is certainly trying to circumvent the spirit of the legislation?
    No, I'm proposing that the OSs simply come with the ability to disable the feature. The legislation requires phones to ship with an OS that resists attempts to roll-back, but it also provides the option for that protection to be disabled by the authorized user.
    06-01-15 09:56 PM
  17. conite's Avatar
    No, I'm proposing that the OSs simply come with the ability to disable the feature. The legislation requires phones to ship with an OS that resists attempts to roll-back, but it also provides the option for that protection to be disabled by the authorized user.
    Which you can - by disabling BlackBerry Protect. So BlackBerry is compliant with the legislation.

    As was said in the California legislature, it must be ubiquitous. "The idea is that if thieves expect the software to be enabled on ALL phones, they won't bother stealing them in the first place". This is the intent of the law. Judges usually look at the intent of the law, and not necessarily the letter of the law when deciding cases.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.680
    Last edited by conite; 06-01-15 at 10:57 PM.
    06-01-15 10:30 PM
  18. ssbtech's Avatar
    Which you can - by disabling BlackBerry Protect. So BlackBerry is compliant with the legislation.
    So by disabling BlackBerry protect, the user could downgrade the OS? Because if not, then they're not fully compliant with the requirement that the security features can be disabled.
    06-01-15 10:43 PM
  19. conite's Avatar
    So by disabling BlackBerry protect, the user could downgrade the OS? Because if not, then they're not fully compliant with the requirement that the security features can be disabled.
    No they can't, and I disagree with your conclusion. The "security feature" is the inability to activate the phone without a password.

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.680
    Rootbrian likes this.
    06-01-15 10:47 PM
  20. thurask's Avatar
    So by disabling BlackBerry protect, the user could downgrade the OS? Because if not, then they're not fully compliant with the requirement that the security features can be disabled.
    Disabling the security by user choice is separate from downgrading.

    For one, downgrading removes the capacity for the kill switch, which contravenes the law, since it has to be there (on or off)

    Second, the inability to downgrade is not the security measure at hand, but the BlackBerry ID-based kill switch. The option is whether or not you want the BBID check in place, not whether or not you want to downgrade to some ancient OS. The blacklist is there so that the scumbag that would steal a phone won't get anything useful out of it by circumventing the kill switch without your consent.

    tl;dr: Deal with it

    Posted via CB10
    06-01-15 10:54 PM
  21. ssbtech's Avatar
    Disabling the security by user choice is separate from downgrading.

    For one, downgrading removes the capacity for the kill switch, which contravenes the law, since it has to be there (on or off)
    Removing the kill switch doesn't contravene the law, since the law specifically states that the user may disable the technological solution (kill switch).
    06-01-15 11:01 PM
  22. thurask's Avatar
    Removing the kill switch doesn't contravene the law, since the law specifically states that the user may disable the technological solution (kill switch).
    Removing it isn't the same as disabling it. If it was, why the requirement of a blacklist in the law in the first place?

    As I said, if you don't like it, declare jihad on any kill switch law. Write to your MP to enshrine the right to maintain some out of date, unpatched, superseded several times over OS.

    Or, as has also been said, deal with it. Seriously.

    Posted via CB10
    Pdinos3 and habs_fan like this.
    06-01-15 11:11 PM
  23. playfoot's Avatar
    [QUOTE=shorski;11683646]You should know as well that once 10.3.2 becomes official and you update, you will never be able to go back to a previous OS because of the anti-theft feature.

    Wow. Yikes.

    I did not know this was a "feature" in 10.3.2. I think for many, like me, this would be a deal breaker for upgrading . . . Losing the ability to decide upon features and operating systems for my fully paid for unlocked phones, would far outweigh the supposed security benefits.
    06-02-15 02:43 AM
  24. playfoot's Avatar
    It's the law in some States now. It is a big deterrent to theft. Other manufacturers are doing the same.

    "The law represent an attempt to reduce rampant smartphone theft. Approximately 30% to 40% of robberies in major US cities involve the theft of mobile communications devices, according to the San Francisco district attorney's office. In San Francisco, that figure is 65%."

    Z30STA100-5/10.3.2.680
    Hmmmm. Why do I feel like I am being punished for the sins of those who do not properly look after their belongings . . .
    06-02-15 02:49 AM
  25. KemKev's Avatar
    You should know as well that once 10.3.2 becomes official and you update, you will never be able to go back to a previous OS because of the anti-theft feature.

    Wow. Yikes.

    I did not know this was a "feature" in 10.3.2. I think for many, like me, this would be a deal breaker for upgrading . . . Losing the ability to decide upon features and operating systems for my fully paid for unlocked phones, would far outweigh the supposed security benefits.
    So what are you going to do when iOS and Android implement the same thing? It really is just a matter of time, I think.
    habs_fan likes this.
    06-02-15 02:53 AM
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