07-01-14 02:15 PM
52 123
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  1. lawguyman's Avatar
    In the time since I did this test, BlackBerry announced its deal with Amazon. It is clearly banking on the Android Runtime to be the source of many kinds of Apps.

    My earlier video showed that Android Runtime performance had improved, at least in terms of load times, but that it was not comparable to a native Android experience, when compared to a Nexus 4. I was going to do a repeat of this test by using the 10.3.0.700 runtime, as opposed to the 10.3.0.442 runtime that was used in the earlier test. But, unfortunately load times seem to be the same. This would not accomplish much. One area of change between .700 and .442 is multitasking. On .442, many apps would not multitask. They would simply crash when minimized. .700 multitasks much better. Watch the video to see.

    However, all is still far from perfect here. The next months need to see BIG improvements to the runtime in order for the Amazon deal to be successful and for Android Apps to be accepted by BlackBerry users. These are the improvements that need to be made:

    1. Load times - Load times are still generally slower than native android. Let's speed things up!

    2. Multitasking issues:
    a. Pause when Resume - Most Android apps are frozen for a second or two when resuming. Resumes need to be instantaneous, like native apps are.
    b. Bugs - This is clearly a leaked beta but there are many bugs. Among them:

    (I) some apps show a blank wallpaper screen when minimized, you need to swipe to the main app screen to see the minimized apps.

    (II) Some apps appear in more than one active frame when minimized! If I load both Google Maps and Google Earth, Google Maps will appear to both active frames. You see this in the video where the Slingplayer and HBO Go active frames both are running HBO Go simultaneously at one point for some reason.

    (III) Inconsistent behavior - If I am playing music on SiriusXM, if I open another media app, sometimes play will be suspended, sometimes it will not. Behavior needs to be consistent.

    (IV) Crashes - You can see that VSCO Cam crashes when I try to resume. This may be because of the camera app, which is kind of wonky in this build.

    3. Compatibility - Compatibility is now generally pretty awesome. As a general rule, if the app does not rely on Google Services, it works. I am thinking we won't have an official way to make Google Services apps work. Fine. But, Blackberry needs to leave the door open here LIKE EVERY OTHER Non-Google vendor (Amazon Kindle, Jolla Sailfish) to get Google Apps working properly. This is really important for a lot of people.

    Comments are welcome.

    Last edited by lawguyman; 06-28-14 at 12:02 PM.
    06-28-14 11:43 AM
  2. santhoshmanikandan's Avatar
    Agree with you. Runtime needs some improvements to resume apps sooner and better hub integration

    Z10STL100-1/10.3.0.700/Updated bars for missing apps.
    06-28-14 11:56 AM
  3. app_Developer's Avatar
    I'm sure this is a major point of emphasis for them. The bar has just been raised, though, because Android L on the N5 is very, very snappy. App loading for example is much faster than 4.4.
    06-28-14 12:12 PM
  4. 018125's Avatar
    They also need to work on the AVRCP compatibility. Native apps can be controlled by external Bluetooth devices, but Android apps cannot. There is no consistency.

    Posted via CB10
    06-28-14 01:15 PM
  5. tickerguy's Avatar
    They also need to work on the AVRCP compatibility. Native apps can be controlled by external Bluetooth devices, but Android apps cannot. There is no consistency.

    Posted via CB10
    Oh yes it can. I run aha Radio and Pandora (both Android apps) from my Pioneer head unit in my car, and need do nothing but push the button on the head unit -- not only can it control the app from the head unit it calls it from a non-running state​ as expected as well.

    The biggest issue with performance is in I/O. There is a NASTY I/O interaction problem somewhere in the runtime, probably having to do with buffering differences. It's been there since 10.0 and while it has improved some it has not gone away. This is responsible for the longer load times and it also shows up in any app that makes heavy use of database access internally (where I/O REALLY counts.)

    This would be where I'd focus my attention as BlackBerry on the Android player. Fix this and the performance issues will ALL disappear. In essentially every other respect the Android player outperforms native Android devices on comparable hardware, in some cases by very wide margins. But poor I/O performance hurts perceived performance in a very serious way, most-visibly (but not exclusively) through load times.
    06-28-14 01:47 PM
  6. lawguyman's Avatar
    Oh yes it can. I run aha Radio and Pandora (both Android apps) from my Pioneer head unit in my car, and need do nothing but push the button on the head unit -- not only can it control the app from the head unit it calls it from a non-running state​ as expected as well.

    The biggest issue with performance is in I/O. There is a NASTY I/O interaction problem somewhere in the runtime, probably having to do with buffering differences. It's been there since 10.0 and while it has improved some it has not gone away. This is responsible for the longer load times and it also shows up in any app that makes heavy use of database access internally (where I/O REALLY counts.)

    This would be where I'd focus my attention as BlackBerry on the Android player. Fix this and the performance issues will ALL disappear. In essentially every other respect the Android player outperforms native Android devices on comparable hardware, in some cases by very wide margins. But poor I/O performance hurts perceived performance in a very serious way, most-visibly (but not exclusively) through load times.
    Load times may be a little bit behind Android and I agree that there needs to be a focus on it. We're running out of time. Let's get moving on it.

    The multitasking is also still a problem. PlayBook has Showcase Mode where each app runs separately. Why not option for that? Android and Apple may only have task switching but right now, that is faster than what BB10 has.

    Posted via CB10
    06-28-14 02:05 PM
  7. Qrackin's Avatar
    I bet that that the speed of the BB Android Runtime, beats the time that it takes for an IOS device to load an Android app.
    LP_Rigg likes this.
    06-28-14 02:12 PM
  8. tickerguy's Avatar
    Load times may be a little bit behind Android and I agree that there needs to be a focus on it. We're running out of time. Let's get moving on it.

    The multitasking is also still a problem. PlayBook has Showcase Mode where each app runs separately. Why not option for that? Android and Apple may only have task switching but right now, that is faster than what BB10 has.

    Posted via CB10
    QNX can definitely support multitasking but you might not like the impact it has on battery life.... in fact, you're kinda likely to REALLY dislike it.

    I'd like to see a per-app preferences switch that can be accessed from a "properties" screen (e.g. by holding down the app's icon to get to it, as you do for delete now) that would allow enabling or disabling certain things. Permissions is the obvious one, but another would be suspend/multitask-low/multitask-normal. The two "multitask" settings would either (for normal) leave priority a notch below the app with focus or allocate from a pool of cycles (e.g. 10% of the total available) to all in the "low" bucket -- and default anything not set either to suspend or multitask-low. That would cap the battery drain impact of background apps and yet you could override it if you so choose.

    I was very (pleasantly) surprised to find that 10.2.1 allows the call of an Android app via a bluetooth-connected external device. I did not expect to be able to punch up Pandora on my car head unit and have it call the Pandora app in "car mode" on my Z10 from a cold start -- but it does, and it both calls and controls it exactly as if it was on a native Android device.
    06-28-14 02:16 PM
  9. co4nd's Avatar
    I bet that that the speed of the BB Android Runtime, beats the time that it takes for an IOS device to load an Android app.
    But iOS has google services and little need for android apps
    06-28-14 02:42 PM
  10. app_Developer's Avatar
    I bet that that the speed of the BB Android Runtime, beats the time that it takes for an IOS device to load an Android app.
    How likely are you to find an app that is available for Android and not available natively for iOS?

    Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
    anon1727506 likes this.
    06-28-14 02:44 PM
  11. russworman's Avatar
    QNX can definitely support multitasking but you might not like the impact it has on battery life.... in fact, you're kinda likely to REALLY dislike it.

    I'd like to see a per-app preferences switch that can be accessed from a "properties" screen (e.g. by holding down the app's icon to get to it, as you do for delete now) that would allow enabling or disabling certain things. Permissions is the obvious one, but another would be suspend/multitask-low/multitask-normal. The two "multitask" settings would either (for normal) leave priority a notch below the app with focus or allocate from a pool of cycles (e.g. 10% of the total available) to all in the "low" bucket -- and default anything not set either to suspend or multitask-low. That would cap the battery drain impact of background apps and yet you could override it if you so choose.

    I was very (pleasantly) surprised to find that 10.2.1 allows the call of an Android app via a bluetooth-connected external device. I did not expect to be able to punch up Pandora on my car head unit and have it call the Pandora app in "car mode" on my Z10 from a cold start -- but it does, and it both calls and controls it exactly as if it was on a native Android device.
    I like your thoughts on the multi task options... I'd just have them in the settings menu some where though

    Posted via CB10
    06-28-14 02:47 PM
  12. PaulPaul49's Avatar
    At the start blackberry should have paid app developers to develop native apps for the mainstream apps
    06-28-14 04:21 PM
  13. 018125's Avatar
    Oh yes it can. I run aha Radio and Pandora (both Android apps) from my Pioneer head unit in my car, and need do nothing but push the button on the head unit -- not only can it control the app from the head unit it calls it from a non-running state​ as expected as well.

    The biggest issue with performance is in I/O. There is a NASTY I/O interaction problem somewhere in the runtime, probably having to do with buffering differences. It's been there since 10.0 and while it has improved some it has not gone away. This is responsible for the longer load times and it also shows up in any app that makes heavy use of database access internally (where I/O REALLY counts.)

    This would be where I'd focus my attention as BlackBerry on the Android player. Fix this and the performance issues will ALL disappear. In essentially every other respect the Android player outperforms native Android devices on comparable hardware, in some cases by very wide margins. But poor I/O performance hurts perceived performance in a very serious way, most-visibly (but not exclusively) through load times.
    Pandora doesn't use AVRCP, not sure what that other app is.

    Posted via CB10
    06-28-14 05:01 PM
  14. LamarStarr's Avatar
    Please please please show this to BlackBerry

    Posted via CB10
    06-28-14 09:25 PM
  15. lawguyman's Avatar
    Please please please show this to BlackBerry

    Posted via CB10
    Boy. I hope they know this kind of stuff.

    The question is are they going to deliver the runtime as it should be, meaning seamless and fully functioning or are they going to fall short?

    As important as Android now is to BlackBerry, I would go so far as to say that BB10 is toast if the runtime is not excellent.

    I have to admit I was hoping to see more progress between 442 and 700.

    Posted via CB10
    06-28-14 09:39 PM
  16. Samikk1's Avatar
    Agree we need to have option to turn off completely android.

    Posted via CB10
    peter0328 likes this.
    06-28-14 11:23 PM
  17. sayf777's Avatar
    Agree we need to have option to turn off completely android.

    Posted via CB10
    Um that's not what this thread is about..

    Posted via CB10
    06-28-14 11:37 PM
  18. sayf777's Avatar
    I agree with most of your points and that pause when resume and multiple active frames running the same app is particularly irritating.

    But do you really think BlackBerry will allow one to edit the android system files (or whatever it's called) to replace the stub that is currently there? Would it not compromise the security of the phone?


    Posted via CB10
    06-28-14 11:41 PM
  19. Nicholas Kathrein's Avatar
    This isn't taking into account Android L that comes out in Sept / Oct that uses ART (Android Run Time) instead of Dalvik which is what Android currently runs.

    "ART is now the default runtime
    We actually saw this coming, but it's now confirmed. ART brings twice the performance over the current runtime, Dalvik. It has been available as a preview for KitKat, but is becoming the default (and from what I can tell, only) runtime in the L release. It's more memory efficient, more flexible, and faster. Even older devices will benefit from this."

    Android Runtime Multi-Tasking Stresstest-android-l-performance-1-640x346.png

    [I/O 2014] Android L Performance Gains: ART Is Now The Default Runtime, Improved Graphics, And Drastically Better Battery Life With Project Volta
    06-29-14 12:00 AM
  20. LP_Rigg's Avatar
    Not gonna get deep in the weeds here on the technical aspects of the latest bb android runtime but, quite a few of the android versions I have loaded via snap actually load quicker and perform better than native.

    It is difficult to do a fair comparison when running a dev os, or even an early build full os, with another os. My experience has actually been pretty exceptional considering the fact my device has bar files from at least 6 os versions. I'm excited about what BB has accomplished.

    Posted via CrackBerry App
    06-29-14 12:13 AM
  21. Nicholas Kathrein's Avatar
    Not gonna get deep in the weeds here on the technical aspects of the latest bb android runtime but, quite a few of the android versions I have loaded via snap actually load quicker and perform better than native.

    It is difficult to do a fair comparison when running a dev os, or even an early build full os, with another os. My experience has actually been pretty exceptional considering the fact my device has bar files from at least 6 os versions. I'm excited about what BB has accomplished.

    Posted via CrackBerry App
    That is fair but 2x the performance on average is a lot to makeup unless you think getting to the current Android run time performance will be good enough.
    06-29-14 12:32 AM
  22. bmoney1229's Avatar
    Boy. I hope they know this kind of stuff.

    The question is are they going to deliver the runtime as it should be, meaning seamless and fully functioning or are they going to fall short?

    As important as Android now is to BlackBerry, I would go so far as to say that BB10 is toast if the runtime is not excellent.

    I have to admit I was hoping to see more progress between 442 and 700.

    Posted via CB10
    I see what's going on here... you work for Google, posing as a BlackBerry fan that is turning on your fav brand

    Posted via CB10
    06-29-14 01:07 AM
  23. Dave Bourque's Avatar
    But iOS has google services and little need for android apps
    No they have Google apps... without the need for Google services... a "favor" for Apple before android took off.

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.3175
    06-29-14 02:00 AM
  24. lawguyman's Avatar
    Not gonna get deep in the weeds here on the technical aspects of the latest bb android runtime but, quite a few of the android versions I have loaded via snap actually load quicker and perform better than native.

    It is difficult to do a fair comparison when running a dev os, or even an early build full os, with another os. My experience has actually been pretty exceptional considering the fact my device has bar files from at least 6 os versions. I'm excited about what BB has accomplished.

    Posted via CrackBerry App
    Which apps are you referring to?

    I agree that you can not draw any firm conclusions when using a beta Dev OS.

    I am using Native Android App performance on. Nexus 4 as a benchmark. Most In that regard apps generally run fine but load slower than Android. I think this is true with 10.2.1 too but those releases are not as compatible as 10.3 is. Many more apps don't run.

    Multitasking is the real issue. It doesn't work well with Android.




    Posted via CB10
    06-29-14 05:52 AM
  25. lawguyman's Avatar
    I agree with most of your points and that pause when resume and multiple active frames running the same app is particularly irritating.

    But do you really think BlackBerry will allow one to edit the android system files (or whatever it's called) to replace the stub that is currently there? Would it not compromise the security of the phone?


    Posted via CB10
    My understanding is that the Android runtime has a dummy Google Services Framework file and that it cannot be overwritten with a working version. The solution is obvious. Ford those who don't want Google Services, they need never install it.

    I don't see it as a security issue. GSF requires the same kind of permissions that other apps do. This is a choice.

    Posted via CB10
    06-29-14 05:57 AM
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