12-13-15 11:11 AM
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  1. KenV54's Avatar
    So why can't we have BB10 plus Google Play? I love BB10 and hear that it is somewhat compromised on the Priv
    Comite says it's against OHA rules and I accept that.

    The following is from Wikipedia:

    "Android, the flagship software of the alliance, is based on an open-source license and has competed against mobile platforms from Apple, Microsoft, Nokia (Symbian), HP (formerly Palm), Samsung Electronics / Intel (Tizen, bada), and BlackBerry

    "As part of its efforts to promote a unified Android platform, OHA members are contractually forbidden from producing devices that are based on incompatible forks of Android."

    This is very incomplete and confusing. Is BlackBerry a member of OHA and bound by the OHA contract with regard to its devices? They talk about "devices" but not apps. If Android is open source, can't anyone do anything they want with it?

    Admitting that I don't understand the OHA, to a layman like me it sure does sound anticompetitive. I can't go to four of my competitors and say, "Let's band together so that our competitor #6 can't interfere with our collective hold on the market."

    How do consumers benefit from the OHA? Isn't that a legal requirement of agreements among competitors?

    Obviously I'm missing something here. Probably a lot. Who could sue whom for what if BlackBerry were to bring full Android to its OS 10 devices?

    Enlighten me.

    Posted via CB10
    11-29-15 09:58 PM
  2. conite's Avatar
    @KenV54, Android is indeed open source, but Google Services is a proprietary product.

    If you want those services, Google has every right to set the terms.
    11-29-15 10:03 PM
  3. KenV54's Avatar
    @KenV54, Android is indeed open source, but Google Services is a proprietary product.

    If you want those services, Google has every right to set the terms.
    Right, but isn't Google essentially protecting companies like Samsung from competition by BlackBerry and others? IOW, Google says it won't allow Samsung's competitors to produce hybrid Android/other OS devices that can then license and run Google Play? And for such protection, Google in return can charge Samsung and others more for Google Play, because it is giving Samsung and others exclusivity. If that's how it works, it sounds anticompetitive to me.

    Posted via CB10
    11-29-15 10:22 PM
  4. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    Right, but isn't Google essentially protecting companies like Samsung from competition by BlackBerry and others? IOW, Google says it won't allow Samsung's competitors to produce hybrid Android/other OS devices that can then license and run Google Play? And for such protection, Google in return can charge Samsung and others more for Google Play, because it is giving Samsung and others exclusivity. If that's how it works, it sounds anticompetitive to me.

    Posted via CB10
    In theory, it's fairly simple. Want GPS? Get with OHA. Samsung, BBRY, HTC et al can skin Android, and that's it. No advantage. The member OEMs have the same material.

    Samsung may have the advantage of scale, but it still needs GPS.
    11-29-15 10:29 PM
  5. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Right, but isn't Google essentially protecting companies like Samsung from competition by BlackBerry and others?
    No. Google is protecting Android. There are over 180 licensees of Google Services - all companies that are competing against Samsung within the Android market - and BB is now among them with the Priv. That's not preventing competition at all.

    What Google is protecting itself (and licensees) from is companies that want to use Google Play and Google Services (which Google owns, and paid billions to develop) to compete against Android. That's kind of like Kia expecting to go to GM and saying "hey, you have these machines that make engines and transmissions for your cars, but you're the big guy, so you need to use your machines to make engines and transmissions for us every third Wednesday - for free."

    Google Play and Google Services aren't "free" or "open source" - they are the property of Google. Google has every right to license access to their properties as they see fit, just like everyone else does - including BB. Would you support someone forcing BB to give away access to, say, QNX? Or BES? Just because they are market leaders in certain markets? Of course not.

    Google isn't preventing OHA members from using other OSs - Samsung, HTC, and others have made WinPhone phones, for example, with no issues. Google is merely preventing OHA members, who have licenses to Google properties, from also using forked versions of Android to compete against Android. Google did nothing to stop BB10 from entering the market, or Jolla, or even FireFox OS (they actually funded Firefox!). But none of those contain Android code.

    If there was some legit case to be made against Google regarding Android, it would have been made - lots of companies would love to get a chunk of Google's cash or property. But there is no case, and so hoping for one to somehow save BB10 is a pure fantasy - or rather, a pipe dream.
    Dunt Dunt Dunt likes this.
    11-29-15 10:48 PM
  6. KenV54's Avatar
    No. Google is protecting Android. There are over 180 licensees of Google Services - all companies that are competing against Samsung within the Android market - and BB is now among them with the Priv. That's not preventing competition at all.

    What Google is protecting itself (and licensees) from is companies that want to use Google Play and Google Services (which Google owns, and paid billions to develop) to compete against Android. That's kind of like Kia expecting to go to GM and saying "hey, you have these machines that make engines and transmissions for your cars, but you're the big guy, so you need to use your machines to make engines and transmissions for us every third Wednesday - for free."

    Google Play and Google Services aren't "free" or "open source" - they are the property of Google. Google has every right to license access to their properties as they see fit, just like everyone else does - including BB. Would you support someone forcing BB to give away access to, say, QNX? Or BES? Just because they are market leaders in certain markets? Of course not.

    Google isn't preventing OHA members from using other OSs - Samsung, HTC, and others have made WinPhone phones, for example, with no issues. Google is merely preventing OHA members, who have licenses to Google properties, from also using forked versions of Android to compete against Android. Google did nothing to stop BB10 from entering the market, or Jolla, or even FireFox OS (they actually funded Firefox!). But none of those contain Android code.

    If there was some legit case to be made against Google regarding Android, it would have been made - lots of companies would love to get a chunk of Google's cash or property. But there is no case, and so hoping for one to somehow save BB10 is a pure fantasy - or rather, a pipe dream.
    Thanks, @Troy, for your lucid explanation.

    OK, I get it about Google protecting its Google Play Services. So, why can't they just charge BlackBerry for the use of GPS? And why do they implicitly support or allow the use of GPS by "hacked" or modified apps? Google knows that GPS is either being used or worked around every time an app is downloaded from the Play Store by a phone with a forked Android runtime.

    I'm not arguing, just trying to figure it out.

    Posted via CB10
    11-29-15 11:17 PM
  7. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    Thanks, @Troy, for your lucid explanation.

    OK, I get it about Google protecting its Google Play Services. So, why can't they just charge BlackBerry for the use of GPS? And why do they implicitly support or allow the use of GPS by "hacked" or modified apps? Google knows that GPS is either being used or worked around every time an app is downloaded from the Play Store by a phone with a forked Android runtime.

    I'm not arguing, just trying to figure it out.

    Posted via CB10
    But what would Google benefit from bending the rules for BlackBerry?

    As for the runtime, shutting it down was probably not worth the effort; heck, BB10 fizzled out on its own, and it most likely helped propagate the popularity of Android anyway.
    11-29-15 11:31 PM
  8. KenV54's Avatar
    But what would Google benefit from bending the rules for BlackBerry?

    As for the runtime, shutting it down was probably not worth the effort; heck, BB10 fizzled out on its own, and it most likely helped propagate the popularity of Android anyway.
    As I mentioned in another thread concerning BlackBerry's demise, it's the Betamax/VHS story all over again, or Gresham's Law as applied to computers and software.

    I guess it was foolish of BlackBerry to think it could go up against Google, using quality as a weapon, and hope to win or even to survive.

    Posted via CB10
    11-30-15 12:18 AM
  9. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    As I mentioned in another thread concerning BlackBerry's demise, it's the Betamax/VHS story all over again, or Gresham's Law as applied to computers and software.

    I guess it was foolish of BlackBerry to think it could go up against Google, using quality as a weapon, and hope to win or even to survive.
    Quality is a bit subjective though. It could be argued that true "quality" is a measure of the customizability of an OS. BB10 was a very late entry.
    11-30-15 01:22 AM
  10. kayuz6's Avatar
    You are right but please remember that for Google using their services is just another entry for revenues.
    Google is making a bunch of money with our datas ;(
    11-30-15 08:18 AM
  11. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    You are right but please remember that for Google using their services is just another entry for revenues.
    Google is making a bunch of money with our datas ;(
    Correct... most of those GPS, are services that are advertising opportunities for Google. Between Android and iOS... Google has most the eyeballs they need. And even non-OHA approved devices are able to get the key parts that Google wants them to have.... Maps, Gmail, Chrome.


    BlackBerry just took too long to adjust to the changing smartphone market back in 2007. If Google had done the same thing...and released Android in 2013, I doubt anyone would really care about it either.
    kayuz6 likes this.
    11-30-15 11:15 AM
  12. RyanGermann's Avatar
    If there was some legit case to be made against Google regarding Android, it would have been made - lots of companies would love to get a chunk of Google's cash or property. But there is no case, and so hoping for one to somehow save BB10 is a pure fantasy - or rather, a pipe dream.
    In what way is what BB does with the Android Run Time on BB10 "incompatible".

    Is BlackBerry, by doing what it does, encouraging App developers to write Android apps that won't be compatible with the "OHA version of Android"?

    Categorically no. The Android Runtime runs within a VM on BlackBerry pretty much unaltered from stock AOHP, doesn't it? That is, it doesn't introduce new or change existing APIs which, if apps used them, would render the apps incompatible them incompatible with "stock Android"?

    I get that the OHA agreement may exist partially to prevent other major players from "embracing and extending" Android, causing terrible fragmentation.

    If anything Google Play Services ITSELF violates the spirit of the OHA: Developers are making "Android Apps" that won't run on AOHP devices, because those devices don't have Google Play Services integrated.

    How's that for hypocrisy and irony?

    All this OHA stuff is a huge red herring, and all the Android device vendors, BlackBerry included, are falling for it, hook, line, and sinker, to the detriment of "open computing" and to the benefit of Google.

    The fact is that customers want "Google Handset Operating System": customers do not want "Android", because as BlackBerry 10 and Amazon Fire has shown, derivatives of AOHP that WILL run "Android Apps" but will not run "Google Handset OS Apps" are not what customers want. This is all misdirection on the part of Google and what astounds ME is how the tech press is silent on this issue. It's like it whizzes right over their heads, or they're so busy hopping on the Google money bandwagon that they don't see what's really going on here, or worse, they don't want to publicly criticize Google... for... some reason.

    Google Play Services and the way Google is using it's power is, to me, as bad or worse than the worst of what Microsoft was accused of in the 90's and 00's, but people just LURVE their overlord Google. Baffling.
    Last edited by RyanGermann; 11-30-15 at 01:43 PM.
    11-30-15 11:23 AM
  13. conite's Avatar
    In what way is what BB does with the Android Run Time on BB10 "incompatible".

    Is BlackBerry, by doing what it does, encouraging App developers to write Android apps that won't be compatible with the "OHA version of Android"?

    Categorically no.

    If anything Google Play Services ITSELF violates the spirit of the OHA: Developers are making "Android Apps" that won't run on OHA devices.

    How's that for hypocrisy and irony?

    All this OHA stuff is a huge red herring, and all the Android device vendors, BlackBerry included, are falling for it, hook, line, and sinker, to the detriment of "open computing" and to the benefit of Google.

    The fact is that customers want "Google Handset Operating System": customers do not want "Android", because as BlackBerry 10 and Amazon Fire has shown, derivatives of AOHP that WILL run "Android Apps are not what customers want. This is all misdirection on the part of Google and what astounds ME is how the tech press is silent on this issue. It's like it whizzes right over their heads, or they're so busy hopping on the Google money bandwagon that they don't see what's really going on here, or worse, they don't want to publicly criticize Google... for... some reason.

    Google Play Services and the way Google is using it's power is, to me, as bad or worse than the worst of what Microsoft was accused of in the 90's and 00's, but people just LURVE their overlord Google. Baffling.
    Although I don't have the same take, does it really matter? We can stamp our feet and complain that it's not fair, but this is the way it is.
    11-30-15 11:35 AM
  14. TomatoPaste's Avatar
    Yes.

    Posted via CB10
    12-02-15 03:14 PM
  15. RyanGermann's Avatar
    But there is no case, and so hoping for one to somehow save BB10 is a pure fantasy - or rather, a pipe dream.
    Please explain how the BB10 implementation of Android is 'incompatible'.

    The conditions about how the device boots or launches Android is just anti-competitive, it doesn't protect Android core OS or third party apps from having compatibility problems.

    The primary source of incompatibility on Android is Google Mobile Services.

    Google can leverage their market position any legal way they want, but Google's 'defenders' should stop trying to sell this as anything other than Google protecting their own business interests, as it has little or nothing to do with protecting the 'integrity of the Android platform'. That's just rubbish.

    Posted via CB10
    12-11-15 09:51 AM
  16. conite's Avatar
    On
    Please explain how the BB10 implementation of Android is 'incompatible'.

    The conditions about how the device boots or launches Android is just anti-competitive, it doesn't protect Android core OS or third party apps from having compatibility problems.

    The primary source of incompatibility on Android is Google Mobile Services.

    Google can leverage their market position any legal way they want, but Google's 'defenders' should stop trying to sell this as anything other than Google protecting their own business interests, as it has little or nothing to do with protecting the 'integrity of the Android platform'. That's just rubbish.

    Posted via CB10
    The Android Runtime is far from compatible.

    The entire notification system is dependent on BB10, not to mention all of the Android settings that can only be accessed via hacks or 3rd party apps.

    The Runtime has no ability to control system resources, or to manage almost anything outside of the application space - multitasking, widgets, you name it.

    Access to Bluetooth, WiFi, the mobile network, or any peripherals have to go through BB10 too - none of which function as Android apps expect. Use WiFi Analyser app or most paired tech to see that.
    Last edited by conite; 12-11-15 at 10:36 AM.
    12-11-15 10:23 AM
  17. TheSlydells's Avatar
    On

    The Android Runtime is far from compatible.

    The entire notification system is dependent on BB10, not to mention all of the Android settings that can only be accessed via hacks or 3rd party apps.

    The Runtime has no ability to control system resources, or to manage almost anything outside of the application space - multitasking, widgets, you name it.

    Access to Bluetooth, WiFi, the mobile network, or any peripherals have to go through BB10 too - none of which function as Android apps expect. Use WiFi Analyser app or most paired tech to see that.
    I believe this is the point where it gets complicated ... and the IP lawyers usually gets involved.

    Question is: Does implementing a wrapper (BB implementation for notification, messaging, etc.) around the stock Android runtime violate licensing agreements? Wouldn't those runtime API's be readily available in the public domain for BB to use? Unless BB reverse engineered or hacked it which I don't think is the case.

    GPS is a separate issue, which I think Google should just license out if revenue generation is the issue there.
    12-11-15 12:31 PM
  18. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    GPS is a separate issue, which I think Google should just license out if revenue generation is the issue there.
    Revenue is always an issue, but the much bigger issue for Android, and why they haven't and won't license GPS for non-Google-certified Android, is precisely because it is the leverage Google uses to combat the fragmentation of Android. By having restrictive licensing agreements for it, they ensure that OEMs stay in line and aren't able to use Android, which Google invests billions in, to compete against Google.

    OEMs are free to use other OSs, including their own OSs (as MS and Apple do, and as BB did in the past), to compete, but Google isn't going to supply them with the OS and the ecosystem with which they can use to compete directly against Google.
    12-11-15 01:30 PM
  19. anon(55900)'s Avatar
    So why can't we have BB10 plus Google Play? I love BB10 and hear that it is somewhat compromised on the Priv
    Do a search on CB for; cobalt landing page
    12-13-15 11:11 AM
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