03-15-14 08:31 PM
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  1. Omnitech's Avatar
    normally firmware issues are readily repeatable, but sometimes they are intermittent.

    The problem is not likely "intermittency", it is that most end-users simply have no idea what the spectrum of variables are that impact the things that they are observing.

    This why, in general, all the chatter about battery life whenever a new OS hits the street are so annoying. Probably at least 75% of the people making claims of better or worse are extrapolating things that should not be extrapolated, and making sweeping generalizations that should not be generalized.

    As I wrote above, I will be glad to include reports of battery-life issues with 10.2.1.2141 if those reports seem well-supported by multiple people and there is enough convincing data to explain why what they are observing is counter to the general trend that I have observed with 2141 overall.

    I need things like carrier names, locations, signal conditions, repeatability and so on - if this issue is reputedly related to one of the wireless radios.

    Feel free to post specific links here that I can investigate.

    Bear in mind I am a little behind on updating the post as I have been busy in other areas.
    02-24-14 04:53 AM
  2. aversfeld@hotmail.co.uk's Avatar
    Also on latest leak and Battery Life best ever.

    EE-UK, My fantastic Z10
    02-24-14 04:56 AM
  3. Observer2's Avatar
    Omnitech, do your own research and you will be invested. I have over 30 years as an engineering professional and I am now put out with you (professionally). you want to lead an effort and not do your own independent research. I am done dealing with you and wish you well in your efforts to support CB. I do not have the time to be your researcher, and yes I have already done the research, but without documenting, which I am not willing to do at this time. Perhaps you can assign someone else to do this for you. After all, this only affects all users of bb10 and if you have not experienced this particular bug, then it must not exist and good for you. thanks!
    02-24-14 07:29 AM
  4. Relletti's Avatar
    Here's my battery life from yesterday. I did some heavy usage on 4g but still got some good life out of the battery.


    2141 battery life-img_20140223_232458.png

    Posted via my Awesome Z30 using CB10
    02-24-14 07:49 AM
  5. sroberts1519's Avatar
    Omnitech,
    I am the co-worker that Observer2 mentioned. I can attest that he sometimes experiences a "strange" battery drain. His normal battery use is very good, until the "bug" rears it's ugly head, then he has rapid battery drain.

    My experiences are similar, but may or may not be exactly the same. I believe that the bug comes from 10.2.10xx and has not been fixed since then. Observer2 is on ATT and I am on TMO. Let me expalin what my software bug is (which has been identifed and discussed many times here on CB by several developers - all you have to do is a little bit of research to find it).

    I go along and have pretty good battery life (not quite as good as Observer2, but I am syncing many more email and social accounts then he is, so I expect more battery drain). I use Battery Guru (BG) and BASA to monitor my battery. I know typically, when my phone is in a "dormant" state, BG will indicate 0.0 to 0.02 W (0.01 A). All of a sudden, for no apparent reason (actually there is probably an explaination, which I will explain in a minute), I start having a constant 0.3W drain (as reported by BG). The drain will not go lower then this, ever. I can look at the history graph on BG, and the graph will show that the battery drain never went below 0.3W. This will drain a battery in about 6 hours with no use on the phone. When the battery drain occurs, if I put the phone on a charger in bed-side mode, the drain goes away. Restarting the phone does not change the drain. battery pull does not change the drain. Deep restart does not change anything. Pulling sim card does not change anything. I can turn LTE radio off, and the drain goes away. As soon as I turn LTE on, the drain is back (regardless if I am in a LTE region, a 4G region or a edge region). I believe the battery drain occurs when I change from one cell region (tower) to another, probably with different coverage (such as when the phone has to switch from LTE to 4G or 3G). The only way the battery drain will go away is I have to go through several different cell regions (towers), then the drain will go away.

    Research CB. You will find several discussions about a known bug in the radio stack, describing this very situation. The discussions here on CB talk about the bug as the radio stack getting in a "stuck" mode. Apparently, a power cycle of the phone does not clear the radio stack (I am assuming this has to do with software running on the radio, and not the main part of the phone).

    Anyways, this problem is real, and Blackberry needs to address it.
    Mecca EL likes this.
    02-24-14 09:07 AM
  6. Fret Madden's Avatar
    Omnitech,
    I am the co-worker that Observer2 mentioned. I can attest that he sometimes experiences a "strange" battery drain. His normal battery use is very good, until the "bug" rears it's ugly head, then he has rapid battery drain.

    My experiences are similar, but may or may not be exactly the same. I believe that the bug comes from 10.2.10xx and has not been fixed since then. Observer2 is on ATT and I am on TMO. Let me expalin what my software bug is (which has been identifed and discussed many times here on CB by several developers - all you have to do is a little bit of research to find it).

    I go along and have pretty good battery life (not quite as good as Observer2, but I am syncing many more email and social accounts then he is, so I expect more battery drain). I use Battery Guru (BG) and BASA to monitor my battery. I know typically, when my phone is in a "dormant" state, BG will indicate 0.0 to 0.02 W (0.01 A). All of a sudden, for no apparent reason (actually there is probably an explaination, which I will explain in a minute), I start having a constant 0.3W drain (as reported by BG). The drain will not go lower then this, ever. I can look at the history graph on BG, and the graph will show that the battery drain never went below 0.3W. This will drain a battery in about 6 hours with no use on the phone. When the battery drain occurs, if I put the phone on a charger in bed-side mode, the drain goes away. Restarting the phone does not change the drain. battery pull does not change the drain. Deep restart does not change anything. Pulling sim card does not change anything. I can turn LTE radio off, and the drain goes away. As soon as I turn LTE on, the drain is back (regardless if I am in a LTE region, a 4G region or a edge region). I believe the battery drain occurs when I change from one cell region (tower) to another, probably with different coverage (such as when the phone has to switch from LTE to 4G or 3G). The only way the battery drain will go away is I have to go through several different cell regions (towers), then the drain will go away.

    Research CB. You will find several discussions about a known bug in the radio stack, describing this very situation. The discussions here on CB talk about the bug as the radio stack getting in a "stuck" mode. Apparently, a power cycle of the phone does not clear the radio stack (I am assuming this has to do with software running on the radio, and not the main part of the phone).

    Anyways, this problem is real, and Blackberry needs to address it.
    Let me see if I'm following this correctly. Two people claiming they have a radio "bug" from the same area causing battery drain. Could it possibly, and I'm just going out on a limb here, be the signal? I'm sorry you two aren't having a good time, but please, don't include me in your assumption that this is affecting all BB10 users. I can assure you it isn't.

    Posted via CB10
    02-24-14 10:32 AM
  7. Omnitech's Avatar
    My experiences are similar, but may or may not be exactly the same. I believe that the bug comes from 10.2.10xx and has not been fixed since then. Observer2 is on ATT and I am on TMO. Let me expalin what my software bug is (which has been identifed and discussed many times here on CB by several developers - all you have to do is a little bit of research to find it).

    I go along and have pretty good battery life (not quite as good as Observer2, but I am syncing many more email and social accounts then he is, so I expect more battery drain). I use Battery Guru (BG) and BASA to monitor my battery. I know typically, when my phone is in a "dormant" state, BG will indicate 0.0 to 0.02 W (0.01 A). All of a sudden, for no apparent reason (actually there is probably an explaination, which I will explain in a minute), I start having a constant 0.3W drain (as reported by BG). The drain will not go lower then this, ever. I can look at the history graph on BG, and the graph will show that the battery drain never went below 0.3W. This will drain a battery in about 6 hours with no use on the phone. When the battery drain occurs, if I put the phone on a charger in bed-side mode, the drain goes away. Restarting the phone does not change the drain. battery pull does not change the drain. Deep restart does not change anything. Pulling sim card does not change anything. I can turn LTE radio off, and the drain goes away. As soon as I turn LTE on, the drain is back (regardless if I am in a LTE region, a 4G region or a edge region). I believe the battery drain occurs when I change from one cell region (tower) to another, probably with different coverage (such as when the phone has to switch from LTE to 4G or 3G). The only way the battery drain will go away is I have to go through several different cell regions (towers), then the drain will go away.

    Research CB. You will find several discussions about a known bug in the radio stack, describing this very situation. The discussions here on CB talk about the bug as the radio stack getting in a "stuck" mode. Apparently, a power cycle of the phone does not clear the radio stack (I am assuming this has to do with software running on the radio, and not the main part of the phone).

    Thanks for the details.

    There is an issue that I have heard of, that tickerguy describes as (from memory) an "LTE reselect bug". He is on T-Mobile. So it's possible this is mostly afflicting GSM-based devices.

    My recollection is that he felt this was fixed in 10.2.1.2141. I will look into it more.

    However I would appreciate links to other people's observations on this. Anecdotal datapoints are all well and good, but I prefer something more isolatable since in particular MOST people are reporting better battery life with this version.


    (EDIT: Here are some links to tickerguy's observances wrt to 10.2.1.1925. He did indeed think the problem was fixed with the newer radio code (1926), but it looks like he modified that opinion more recently:

    1926 Radio For Q10/5. Z10 1/2/3/4 / Z30 (Post #163)

    1926 Radio For Q10/5. Z10 1/2/3/4 / Z30 (Post #393)

    1926 Radio For Q10/5. Z10 1/2/3/4 / Z30 (Post #649)


    I will ask him if he would like to comment here on this.
    .
    02-24-14 12:34 PM
  8. tickerguy's Avatar
    It is not fixed in 2141.

    It is different though.

    What's happening in 2141 is that the tower and phone get confused in LTE mode and when that happens you wind up in "voice-only" with the phone trying to continually renegotiate LTE for data.

    That is a whopper of a battery-killer.

    This appears to not be the phone's fault, because (1) it is not consistent and (2) when it happens it survives a power-off reboot.

    That strongly implicates the carrier's software, since the state of the user's terminal device (the phone) has been reset.

    There was a different permutation of this problem with earlier releases and in those former releases it was not able to be determined who's fault it was -- indeed, it looked like the phone's fault as it would reliably clear when the phone was powered off.

    2141 has pretty-much demonstrated that it's NOT the phone's fault. It's on the carrier end.

    The really bad news is that if you're on AT&T you can't shut LTE off in an LTE service area as AT&T has flagged network technology settings off along with the editing of APNs and MMS parameters. This effectively means you're screwed blind if you run into a cell that exhibits this problem on AT&T's service and there is nothing you can do about it.

    It is definitely cell-dependent on 2141. I have a cell here near my house that I will quite-reliably get the phone into this state, but if I turn LTE on when across town at a local watering hole that is on a DIFFERENT cell site (which can be verified via escreens) it doesn't happen at all, no matter how long I keep the data link operational.

    If you're running into this and are on a carrier that does not lock the network screen turn off LTE and it will go away. Then ***** at the carrier involved.
    Relletti, Mecca EL and Omnitech like this.
    02-24-14 12:56 PM
  9. zipped's Avatar
    Not sure why there is discord about whether there are issues with battery drain as from what I can read there are a number of people reporting on this issue. I can definitely attest prior releases had a much better radio signal or reception pre 1925 and 2141. For the record I am in Colorado, travel primarily throughout the Western US for work on a weekly basis, using STL-004 on 2141/2142. I end up in the Rockies for snowboarding or summertime activities every other weekend. I switched from Tmobile after 8 years to Verizon a year ago due to Verizon having much better coverage in the mountains and typically most metro areas to where I traveled.

    Up until the releases I mentioned, and I wished I had documented better as I can't remember with 1055, however I do know I did not have signal issues. I can say my signal strength is worse that previous versions based on the bar strength and how often I now revert to 1X on the phone display. Based on this I would harbor a guess the radio is working harder to maintain a connection thereby causing a faster battery drain but again, just a layman's guess. I do not have anything to back this up except my observations. I do know I am frustrated with the current signal levels. Coming down I-70 which is a major corridor to the mountains I found my signal abysmal for roughly 15 miles to which I know I had previous signal as I used to stream Pandora without issue for the entire ride to the mountains (Pandora - Today's Comedy rocks btw!)

    As to gathering data Omnitech, I appreciate the fact you say you are keeping track however I would say there are a number of threads questioning battery life popping up now as to where previously I do not believe we had this many new threads. I would hazard a guess more people are looking for answers or validation now that the update to 1925 has been pushed system wide (at least on Verizon) and people are seeing the difference on usage times.

    I've had enough Blackberry's and phones in general as well as experience on the Z10 to know when there is an issue caused by an update. This is not to deter from your wisdom and I am not a few frys short of a happy meal when I say 1925 and 2141 have caused a much shorter battery life than I previously could depend on. Just my two cents and I am sticking to it.
    Last edited by zipped; 02-24-14 at 01:59 PM.
    Korepab and Norg like this.
    02-24-14 01:44 PM
  10. djnick's Avatar
    It is not fixed in 2141.

    It is different though.

    What's happening in 2141 is that the tower and phone get confused in LTE mode and when that happens you wind up in "voice-only" with the phone trying to continually renegotiate LTE for data.

    That is a whopper of a battery-killer.

    This appears to not be the phone's fault, because (1) it is not consistent and (2) when it happens it survives a power-off reboot.

    That strongly implicates the carrier's software, since the state of the user's terminal device (the phone) has been reset.

    There was a different permutation of this problem with earlier releases and in those former releases it was not able to be determined who's fault it was -- indeed, it looked like the phone's fault as it would reliably clear when the phone was powered off.

    2141 has pretty-much demonstrated that it's NOT the phone's fault. It's on the carrier end.

    The really bad news is that if you're on AT&T you can't shut LTE off in an LTE service area as AT&T has flagged network technology settings off along with the editing of APNs and MMS parameters. This effectively means you're screwed blind if you run into a cell that exhibits this problem on AT&T's service and there is nothing you can do about it.

    It is definitely cell-dependent on 2141. I have a cell here near my house that I will quite-reliably get the phone into this state, but if I turn LTE on when across town at a local watering hole that is on a DIFFERENT cell site (which can be verified via escreens) it doesn't happen at all, no matter how long I keep the data link operational.

    If you're running into this and are on a carrier that does not lock the network screen turn off LTE and it will go away. Then ***** at the carrier involved.
    In the engineering screen you can force the phone to 4g, 3g , or edge. Having said that what radio version are you sticking with?
    02-24-14 01:50 PM
  11. tickerguy's Avatar
    I'm running 2142 but it doesn't help you to go back to an earlier one; at best the earlier releases might allow you to clear it for a while if you're on a cell that exhibits the problem but it will come back.

    2142, if you're NOT on such a cell (a properly-working LTE one or on HSPA) has materially-lower power consumption in standby than earlier releases.
    02-24-14 02:44 PM
  12. sroberts1519's Avatar
    Tickerguy,
    I appreciate the feed back. While agree that it appears to not be the phone since the battery drain survives device restarts. I never once experienced the battery drain when I was on 10.0 or 10.1 (and I don't think 10.2.0, but not positive about that - it has been a few months It appeared on 10.2.10xx once or twice, but then when I installed 1925, it seems to be happening quite often (lately, almost daily). The first time I really tried to troubleshoot the issue, I was on .1925 with radio .1899, and I installed .1926 radio while the drain was occuring.

    I just wonder if there is part of the radio software/stack that does not get really reset on a phone restart. I am no expert on the negotiation protocol between the device and carrier tower/equipment. But I tend to believe that there is a problem with both the phone and the carrier that is causing this. Like maybe the phone gets in some mode where it is constantly asking the carrier for xyz, and the carrier is saying no, I don't care what you are asking for, you need to do abc. And the handshake negotiation never completes.

    I am currently on .1925 with .1926 radio. I have been meaning to backup, reflash 1925, then restore backup and see if that helps any. I am not sure if I want to go to .2141, as I have heard that TMO might be pushing out 10.2.1 in the next few weeks (I am pretty sure they will be pushing out .1925), and I would like to get wi-fi calling back - so I need to go with the version that TMO will be pushing out. If I have time to reflash my phone in the next day or two - I will try and report back my findings.
    02-24-14 03:02 PM
  13. tickerguy's Avatar
    I'm on T-Mobile and when they push their version, whatever it is, I am likely to load at least the radio if not the OS, but will attempt it non-destructively (I've got a good record of pulling that off.)

    The official T-Mobile loads have all done this as well, but again only on certain cells. I just happen to have one of them that covers my house, so I usually run with the phone in HSPA-but-no-LTE mode. When 2xxx came out I ran with LTE enabled and in the areas where the problem doesn't exist the performance and battery life are materially better than the earlier releases - the problem is that in the trouble areas it's REALLY bad now with drain around 0.7W idle (instead of 0.4 or thereabouts with previous versions.)
    02-24-14 03:12 PM
  14. Relletti's Avatar
    Anyone here on verizon? I was trying to go back on 3g because 4g is a battery killer. It's weird because it will only allow me to be on 4g or nothing. I see the option to switch to 3g in the mobile settings but it will not find a network.

    Posted via my Awesome Z30 using CB10
    02-24-14 05:44 PM
  15. Chase_Manley's Avatar
    2141 battery life-img_20140224_175108.png

    Battery life today. I've updated about 5 days ago. It's horrible. Before 10.2.1 my battery would last a good 2 days with heavy use. Now it just sucks .....But luckily I have an extra battery.

    Posted via CB10
    02-24-14 05:54 PM
  16. Omnitech's Avatar
    As to gathering data Omnitech, I appreciate the fact you say you are keeping track however I would say there are a number of threads questioning battery life popping up now as to where previously I do not believe we had this many new threads. I would hazard a guess more people are looking for answers or validation now that the update to 1925 has been pushed system wide (at least on Verizon) and people are seeing the difference on usage times.

    I've had enough Blackberry's and phones in general as well as experience on the Z10 to know when there is an issue caused by an update. This is not to deter from your wisdom and I am not a few frys short of a happy meal when I say 1925 and 2141 have caused a much shorter battery life than I previously could depend on. Just my two cents and I am sticking to it.


    Obviously I am not sticking my head in the sand here or I wouldn't be sending people here to share their input. I referred another couple of people here today as well.

    However bear in mind that my 2141 changelog post is primarily concerned with differences noted between 1925 and 2141, so if the issue already existed on 1925 it's less interesting to me. (I do have a section now for "existing bug" but as mentioned previously my standard is fairly high for what I consider "bug", because this forum is full of people claiming all sorts of things are bugs that are not. For what it's worth, at this point I'm on the verge of listing this particular issue in that category, however.)
    02-24-14 06:02 PM
  17. Omnitech's Avatar
    Anyone here on verizon? I was trying to go back on 3g because 4g is a battery killer. It's weird because it will only allow me to be on 4g or nothing. I see the option to switch to 3g in the mobile settings but it will not find a network.

    VZW doesn't let you disable just LTE in the user UI, though you may be able to accomplish it with the escreens.
    02-24-14 06:10 PM
  18. zipped's Avatar
    Relletti - I am on Verizon an the only options I have are Settings/Networks and Connections/Mobile Network then scroll down to Network Technology then if you tap that you have 3 options: Global or LTE/CDMA or UMTS/GSM. If I switch to the last I have only had it work overseas in China. When I have played with it in the US I have not had any success in picking up a network even with manual selection on the 3G, 3G/2G, or 2G options.

    Omnitech - well said and understood on the change log vs general issues.
    Relletti likes this.
    02-24-14 06:22 PM
  19. Relletti's Avatar
    Relletti - I am on Verizon an the only options I have are Settings/Networks and Connections/Mobile Network then scroll down to Network Technology then if you tap that you have 3 options: Global or LTE/CDMA or UMTS/GSM. If I switch to the last I have only had it work overseas in China. When I have played with it in the US I have not had any success in picking up a network even with manual selection on the 3G, 3G/2G, or 2G options.

    Omnitech - well said and understood on the change log vs general issues.
    Thanks zipped. I thought I was the only one. I guess I'm stuck with 4g.

    Posted via my Awesome Z30 using CB10
    02-24-14 06:39 PM
  20. heading4tomorrow's Avatar
    For some reason HUB used a lot of battery yesterday over %50 and my phone did not last all day. No difference from 1925 to 2141. Still 10.2.0 was the best.
    02-24-14 10:43 PM
  21. Foppa_21's Avatar
    For some reason HUB used a lot of battery yesterday over %50 and my phone did not last all day. No difference from 1925 to 2141. Still 10.2.0 was the best.
    I had a similar issue today where Hub++ started using a ton of CPU and battery. Stopping Hub++ and rebooting fixed it for me.

    Posted from my Z10 via CB10
    02-24-14 10:47 PM
  22. Omnitech's Avatar
    I had a similar issue today where Hub++ started using a ton of CPU and battery. Stopping Hub++ and rebooting fixed it for me.

    Recent versions of Hub++ have been battery chompers for me.

    I use 10.2.0.1809 on the device that Hub++ is installed on. My 10.2.1 device has a different notifications app installed.
    02-25-14 12:15 AM
  23. bikenski's Avatar
    I believe there is merit to the theory that something between the phone and cellular towers is causing high battery drain in the latest builds. My story:

    Q10 (SQN100-2) on Verizon. Had great battery life on 10.2.0.1791, but far worse on both 10.2.1.1925 and .2141.

    I did an autoloader install of 10.2.1.2141 early last week, and set everything up fresh (no backup restore.) Battery life is only ~18 hours under my typical usage scenario. This is no better than it was under .1925, despite being connected to WiFi for the vast majority of the day.

    This past weekend, however, I was doing errands around the house and didn't go anywhere where the phone would have moved towers for a 48 hour period. During this time the phone was cold to the touch, the battery graph flattened significantly, and estimated battery life was more than 3 days! I was thrilled, thinking the new OS had finally settled down, and that the great battery life had returned.

    Unfortunately once I ventured back out and the phone hopped between towers around town, the battery is back to its usual 18 hour drain, and the phone is always running warm.

    With the exception of the battery drain .2141 has been a great release, so hopefully it will be resolved soon!
    02-25-14 01:26 PM
  24. Foppa_21's Avatar
    Are PRL updates a thing of the past with BB10?

    Posted from my Z10 via CB10
    02-25-14 01:50 PM
  25. Omnitech's Avatar
    Are PRL updates a thing of the past with BB10?

    As I understand it, yes, at least with Verizon. I don't know about Sprint or the tiny number of other remaining CDMA carriers.
    02-25-14 02:23 PM
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