1. NormansBuecherei's Avatar
    I was an avid user of the BB Bold 9900 and then the Passport and I really loved both of them. And now I've got the KeyOne and it's OK, except for a lot of small things that annoy me. But I won't buy a BB phone after this even though I really loved the brand.

    I'm going to tell you why. And what BB, in my opinion, can do against this.

    What really spoke for the older phones, especially the Passport, was that it was comfortable to use. The swiping gestures worked perfectly fine and were intuitive, the idea of the hub was great, everything was well-tested, well-integrated and very stable. Even though I am a hardcore-user (I'm a software developer and on the phone all the time, doing all kinds of different things, web-browsing, app-testing, ssh'ing servers, even coding, and of course, phone, SMS, ...), in my 3 years of using the Passport, it only crashed twice and needed a reboot and only one time it hang so much that I needed to reboot manually.

    The modern KeyOne, in all of those regards, sucks. It does not matter to me whether it's Androids fault or Blackberrys. The only thing that matters is that it sucks. The Hub is only a bare reminiscence of what it used to be, not at all as comfortable and well-integrated into the OS. Swiping when getting calls doesn't work most of the time. Sometimes, when typing an email, I accidently press some buttons, go to the home screen and it detects my last key presses as "search for this item", which starts the (not really working) phone search (it never finds what I want and I practically stopped using it, though it was one of the best features on the Passport), which disrupts the email writing for like 30 seconds. I have to restart the phone like twice a month because something isn't working, mainly at the login screen when unable to login. Also, I use the music player a lot. But it was Google Music. Some day, they just told me "hey, we stopped Google Music. It won't work in a month from now and all your contents will be deleted. Use the Youtube Music app from now on". This is absolutely unacceptable to me. I don't want Google to decide what software I use. All alternatives suck, the least worst one being the VLC media player.
    It seems to me like the KeyOne software has barely been tested in a real work scenario by real people.

    But there's one even bigger thing in the way of BB making a widespread phone. The hardware.

    The specs are Ok. It's not a gaming machine, but it doesn't need to be. But the shell sucks.

    When looking out for a new phone, I came across the Unihertz Titan. A rugged BlackBerry clone. Waterproof, dustproof and so on. It would have been perfect if I just was able to trust the software (which I'm not, because it's full of chinese spyware). I have lots of friends and colleagues that would love a good QWERTY (or, in my case, QWERTZ) phone, like the Passport once was, but they're on their way all day long and need a more rugged phone that may fall down once or twice without everything breaking. My friends range from construction workers, water-workers, programmers and even hippies on their own farm, and they all use rugged phones and none of them is happy with the phone's software. But they put up with it, even though it annoys them, because they need rugged hardware. This is a huge market that a good software rugged phone can easily take.

    If BlackBerry wanted to be successful again, my advise would be:

    - Test your software thoroughly, and fix every small thing that is annoying. Don't hide behind "it's Android's fault". Fix it. The BBOS10 was near perfection imho. Everything worked, was intuitive and stable. The android versions suck.
    - Create a rugged hardware option. This will get you a lot of customers that would have not considered your phone and that can easily pe persuaded even with the mediocre software quality of the android phone, because it's way better than what rugged-phone-companies can offer now.
    12-18-20 06:12 AM
  2. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    I was an avid user of the BB Bold 9900 and then the Passport and I really loved both of them. And now I've got the KeyOne and it's OK, except for a lot of small things that annoy me. But I won't buy a BB phone after this even though I really loved the brand.

    I'm going to tell you why. And what BB, in my opinion, can do against this.

    What really spoke for the older phones, especially the Passport, was that it was comfortable to use. The swiping gestures worked perfectly fine and were intuitive, the idea of the hub was great, everything was well-tested, well-integrated and very stable. Even though I am a hardcore-user (I'm a software developer and on the phone all the time, doing all kinds of different things, web-browsing, app-testing, ssh'ing servers, even coding, and of course, phone, SMS, ...), in my 3 years of using the Passport, it only crashed twice and needed a reboot and only one time it hang so much that I needed to reboot manually.

    The modern KeyOne, in all of those regards, sucks. It does not matter to me whether it's Androids fault or Blackberrys. The only thing that matters is that it sucks. The Hub is only a bare reminiscence of what it used to be, not at all as comfortable and well-integrated into the OS. Swiping when getting calls doesn't work most of the time. Sometimes, when typing an email, I accidently press some buttons, go to the home screen and it detects my last key presses as "search for this item", which starts the (not really working) phone search (it never finds what I want and I practically stopped using it, though it was one of the best features on the Passport), which disrupts the email writing for like 30 seconds. I have to restart the phone like twice a month because something isn't working, mainly at the login screen when unable to login. Also, I use the music player a lot. But it was Google Music. Some day, they just told me "hey, we stopped Google Music. It won't work in a month from now and all your contents will be deleted. Use the Youtube Music app from now on". This is absolutely unacceptable to me. I don't want Google to decide what software I use. All alternatives suck, the least worst one being the VLC media player.
    It seems to me like the KeyOne software has barely been tested in a real work scenario by real people.

    But there's one even bigger thing in the way of BB making a widespread phone. The hardware.

    The specs are Ok. It's not a gaming machine, but it doesn't need to be. But the shell sucks.

    When looking out for a new phone, I came across the Unihertz Titan. A rugged BlackBerry clone. Waterproof, dustproof and so on. It would have been perfect if I just was able to trust the software (which I'm not, because it's full of chinese spyware). I have lots of friends and colleagues that would love a good QWERTY (or, in my case, QWERTZ) phone, like the Passport once was, but they're on their way all day long and need a more rugged phone that may fall down once or twice without everything breaking. My friends range from construction workers, water-workers, programmers and even hippies on their own farm, and they all use rugged phones and none of them is happy with the phone's software. But they put up with it, even though it annoys them, because they need rugged hardware. This is a huge market that a good software rugged phone can easily take.

    If BlackBerry wanted to be successful again, my advise would be:

    - Test your software thoroughly, and fix every small thing that is annoying. Don't hide behind "it's Android's fault". Fix it. The BBOS10 was near perfection imho. Everything worked, was intuitive and stable. The android versions suck.
    - Create a rugged hardware option. This will get you a lot of customers that would have not considered your phone and that can easily pe persuaded even with the mediocre software quality of the android phone, because it's way better than what rugged-phone-companies can offer now.
    BlackBerry Limited solved the problem in 2016 when it exited mobile OEM space. The Android limitations are simple to fix by OEMs either proprietary or licensed however Google does ultimately control the OS because Google is the owner. There’s nothing for BlackBerry Limited to fix because licensees of BBAndroid have also ended their licensing relationship.

    The new licensee OM hasn’t done anything yet but will probably use Android One for the OS if the venture ever happens. I suspect a Unihertz Titan similar phone that has BlackBerry stickers just made by FIH somewhere in some neutral political facility. OM hinted at USA manufacturing possibilities. As far as rugged phones, OM has connections with Sonim that currently makes rugged phones. That could be your real-time actual solution.
    Trouveur likes this.
    12-18-20 06:44 AM
  3. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Yeah we are long past the point of BlackBerry caring about the hardware market..... they are tiny software company with some remnant smartphone IP and name. And looks like they are selling off the hardware patents. So the name and the legacy of what BlackBerry was may soon be separated.

    As Chuck said, OM might simply be some stickers and maybe some Enterprise level BlackBerry software solutions.... that I'm not so sure consumers are going to want to pay for.
    12-18-20 07:03 AM
  4. the_boon's Avatar
    If OM builds a rugged PKB Berry, they would also be reaching out into the rugged phone market as opposed to just the keyboard/BB market, which would be a smart move. Basically it's what UniHertz is doing.
    12-18-20 07:43 AM
  5. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    If OM builds a rugged PKB Berry, they would also be reaching out into the rugged phone market as opposed to just the keyboard/BB market, which would be a smart move. Basically it's what UniHertz is doing.
    And how many Titan's have they sold.... 5K?

    And how many Titan owners have complained of the weight and bulk?

    Personally I don't really understand the rugged phone market.... I'd rather buy the phone I want at a good price and then add a case to it. You don't see rugged phones "on sale" or being updated all that much.


    What I wish they'd do is just forget about Government, Enterprise or Invincibility, and build a "good" low cost PKB phone that get's updates and patches via the Android One program (and OM continuing support of that program and their phones). But then that risks the BlackBerry name. So in the end it's going to have something BlackBerry on it. My guess is off the shelf enterprise solutions... for a monthly fee.
    12-18-20 08:13 AM
  6. conite's Avatar
    I was an avid user of the BB Bold 9900 and then the Passport and I really loved both of them. And now I've got the KeyOne and it's OK, except for a lot of small things that annoy me. But I won't buy a BB phone after this even though I really loved the brand.

    I'm going to tell you why. And what BB, in my opinion, can do against this.

    What really spoke for the older phones, especially the Passport, was that it was comfortable to use. The swiping gestures worked perfectly fine and were intuitive, the idea of the hub was great, everything was well-tested, well-integrated and very stable. Even though I am a hardcore-user (I'm a software developer and on the phone all the time, doing all kinds of different things, web-browsing, app-testing, ssh'ing servers, even coding, and of course, phone, SMS, ...), in my 3 years of using the Passport, it only crashed twice and needed a reboot and only one time it hang so much that I needed to reboot manually.

    The modern KeyOne, in all of those regards, sucks. It does not matter to me whether it's Androids fault or Blackberrys. The only thing that matters is that it sucks. The Hub is only a bare reminiscence of what it used to be, not at all as comfortable and well-integrated into the OS. Swiping when getting calls doesn't work most of the time. Sometimes, when typing an email, I accidently press some buttons, go to the home screen and it detects my last key presses as "search for this item", which starts the (not really working) phone search (it never finds what I want and I practically stopped using it, though it was one of the best features on the Passport), which disrupts the email writing for like 30 seconds. I have to restart the phone like twice a month because something isn't working, mainly at the login screen when unable to login. Also, I use the music player a lot. But it was Google Music. Some day, they just told me "hey, we stopped Google Music. It won't work in a month from now and all your contents will be deleted. Use the Youtube Music app from now on". This is absolutely unacceptable to me. I don't want Google to decide what software I use. All alternatives suck, the least worst one being the VLC media player.
    It seems to me like the KeyOne software has barely been tested in a real work scenario by real people.

    But there's one even bigger thing in the way of BB making a widespread phone. The hardware.

    The specs are Ok. It's not a gaming machine, but it doesn't need to be. But the shell sucks.

    When looking out for a new phone, I came across the Unihertz Titan. A rugged BlackBerry clone. Waterproof, dustproof and so on. It would have been perfect if I just was able to trust the software (which I'm not, because it's full of chinese spyware). I have lots of friends and colleagues that would love a good QWERTY (or, in my case, QWERTZ) phone, like the Passport once was, but they're on their way all day long and need a more rugged phone that may fall down once or twice without everything breaking. My friends range from construction workers, water-workers, programmers and even hippies on their own farm, and they all use rugged phones and none of them is happy with the phone's software. But they put up with it, even though it annoys them, because they need rugged hardware. This is a huge market that a good software rugged phone can easily take.

    If BlackBerry wanted to be successful again, my advise would be:

    - Test your software thoroughly, and fix every small thing that is annoying. Don't hide behind "it's Android's fault". Fix it. The BBOS10 was near perfection imho. Everything worked, was intuitive and stable. The android versions suck.
    - Create a rugged hardware option. This will get you a lot of customers that would have not considered your phone and that can easily pe persuaded even with the mediocre software quality of the android phone, because it's way better than what rugged-phone-companies can offer now.
    You simply don't seem to be used to Android yet. You'll learn to love it and wonder how you ever got along without it.
    rarsen and Trouveur like this.
    12-18-20 08:21 AM
  7. NormansBuecherei's Avatar
    And how many Titan's have they sold.... 5K?

    And how many Titan owners have complained of the weight and bulk?

    Personally I don't really understand the rugged phone market.... I'd rather buy the phone I want at a good price and then add a case to it. You don't see rugged phones "on sale" or being updated all that much.


    What I wish they'd do is just forget about Government, Enterprise or Invincibility, and build a "good" low cost PKB phone that get's updates and patches via the Android One program (and OM continuing support of that program and their phones). But then that risks the BlackBerry name. So in the end it's going to have something BlackBerry on it. My guess is off the shelf enterprise solutions... for a monthly fee.
    The problem with Unihertz, in my opinion, is twofold.

    1. The hardware is not nearly as good as BlackBerry could make it with their experience, especially if they designed it similiar to the Passport's hard- and software.
    2. It's practically impossible to trust this thing since it's from china and packed with weird unremovable spyware that sends all your data to some weird foreign servers.

    Also, marketing is a big thing where they miss.

    And rugged phones are not for everyone. There are people who don't want to have a slightly heavier, but more robust phone. But from my experience I can tell that there *is* a market that wants and needs this, even in "normal" people. People who care more about having their phone reliable for a longer time than to either have the latest apps, or a very lightweight phone. And these people can be easily marketed to when you have good hard- and especially good software, since on all these rugged phones, the software really sucks and is barely usable at all. Even the mediocre-quality BB android software would get these users, as it would be better than anything they'd ever laid their hands on.
    12-18-20 08:24 AM
  8. NormansBuecherei's Avatar
    You simply don't seem to be used to Android yet. You'll learn to love it and wonder how you ever got along without it.
    I certainly don't agree. I've got this phone for about half a year now, and I think I will never get used to rebooting my phone because it doesn't work as I want it to, the calendar that doesn't allow me to import or export ical files, the terrible device search app that never finds what I want and the slow and sluggish UI that hangs at random times at random tasks.
    12-18-20 08:28 AM
  9. conite's Avatar
    I certainly don't agree. I've got this phone for about half a year now, and I think I will never get used to rebooting my phone because it doesn't work as I want it to, the calendar that doesn't allow me to import or export ical files, the terrible device search app that never finds what I want and the slow and sluggish UI that hangs at random times at random tasks.
    Although the TCL KEYᵒⁿᵉ is a 3.5 year old phone now, I never had any performance issues like that.

    You seem to be under the impression that BlackBerry didn't leave the device business in 2016. You do realize that the 3 licensees who picked up the brand-name since have either gone bankrupt or have already dropped it, right?

    A new startup called OnwardMobility is purporting to launch another BlackBerry-branded phone mid-2021, but that really has nothing to do with BlackBerry Limited either.
    Last edited by conite; 12-18-20 at 11:14 AM.
    12-18-20 08:56 AM
  10. the_boon's Avatar
    The problem with Unihertz, in my opinion, is twofold.

    1. The hardware is not nearly as good as BlackBerry could make it with their experience, especially if they designed it similiar to the Passport's hard- and software.
    2. It's practically impossible to trust this thing since it's from china and packed with weird unremovable spyware that sends all your data to some weird foreign servers.

    Also, marketing is a big thing where they miss.

    And rugged phones are not for everyone. There are people who don't want to have a slightly heavier, but more robust phone. But from my experience I can tell that there *is* a market that wants and needs this, even in "normal" people. People who care more about having their phone reliable for a longer time than to either have the latest apps, or a very lightweight phone. And these people can be easily marketed to when you have good hard- and especially good software, since on all these rugged phones, the software really sucks and is barely usable at all. Even the mediocre-quality BB android software would get these users, as it would be better than anything they'd ever laid their hands on.
    Not to mention that maybe those who want a rugged phone, don't necessarily want wider-and-heavier-than-300g rugged.

    But more something along the lines of the Samsung Galaxy XCover.
    anon(8004005) likes this.
    12-18-20 10:14 AM
  11. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    I certainly don't agree. I've got this phone for about half a year now, and I think I will never get used to rebooting my phone because it doesn't work as I want it to, the calendar that doesn't allow me to import or export ical files, the terrible device search app that never finds what I want and the slow and sluggish UI that hangs at random times at random tasks.
    Well than perhaps switch to iOS as different alternative. Unfortunately all you’ve got for choices is Android/iOS since there aren’t other currently developed and support mobile OS and if there ever are it won’t be from BlackBerry Limited or BB10 related. It’s now technically a dead mobile OS from a development perspective and can’t be resurrected from an economically feasible standpoint.
    12-18-20 11:09 AM
  12. brookie229's Avatar
    It's practically impossible to trust this thing since it's from china and packed with weird unremovable spyware that sends all your data to some weird foreign servers.
    Put Lineage on it to solve that problem.
    12-18-20 02:27 PM
  13. brookie229's Avatar
    I certainly don't agree. I've got this phone for about half a year now, and I think I will never get used to rebooting my phone because it doesn't work as I want it to, the calendar that doesn't allow me to import or export ical files, the terrible device search app that never finds what I want and the slow and sluggish UI that hangs at random times at random tasks.
    I agree with you on this. I've been using an android device for years (off an on) and I still hate android. I would much more prefer an OS with some integration of services (such as HUB, File Manager etc), but it is what it is and you have to accept it. Either that or iOS, which, to me, is TOO integrated and walled-up. Whatever happened to the happy medium? No one wanted it. Pity.
    anon(5597702) and saint300 like this.
    12-18-20 02:32 PM
  14. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    I agree with you on this. I've been using an android device for years (off an on) and I still hate android. I would much more prefer an OS with some integration of services (such as HUB, File Manager etc), but it is what it is and you have to accept it. Either that or iOS, which, to me, is TOO integrated and walled-up. Whatever happened to the happy medium? No one wanted it. Pity.
    What's too walled or intergraded about iOS. If you want a different browser, email, sms... you can use different ones. iOS isn't any more walled up than BB10 was.

    Personally I like how features like Passwords are integrated and can be used in most any app that supports that API - browser, os or apps. Things like pairing a Apple Watch or EarPods is seamless. Adding a new Apple device to a network is seamless as well, as you can use one device to approve the other.

    I've even added some of my own music and movie to play on iPhone. The only wall I've hit is I can't buy movies in the Vudu app.
    12-18-20 03:16 PM
  15. brookie229's Avatar
    What's too walled or intergraded about iOS. If you want a different browser, email, sms... you can use different ones. iOS isn't any more walled up than BB10 was.

    Personally I like how features like Passwords are integrated and can be used in most any app that supports that API - browser, os or apps. Things like pairing a Apple Watch or EarPods is seamless. Adding a new Apple device to a network is seamless as well, as you can use one device to approve the other.

    I've even added some of my own music and movie to play on iPhone. The only wall I've hit is I can't buy movies in the Vudu app.
    Yeah, I shouldn't jump to this conclusion because it's been a long time since I've even used an iPhone (maybe the 6 series, can't remember). There have probably been heaps of improvements since then. I'm not into buying all accessories at imo, extortion-like prices however. I have not ruled out the smaller SE for my next phone.
    12-18-20 04:15 PM
  16. NormansBuecherei's Avatar
    What's too walled or intergraded about iOS. If you want a different browser, email, sms... you can use different ones. iOS isn't any more walled up than BB10 was.

    Personally I like how features like Passwords are integrated and can be used in most any app that supports that API - browser, os or apps. Things like pairing a Apple Watch or EarPods is seamless. Adding a new Apple device to a network is seamless as well, as you can use one device to approve the other.

    I've even added some of my own music and movie to play on iPhone. The only wall I've hit is I can't buy movies in the Vudu app.
    For me it's like a game theoretical question. I want different things that I cannot have. What is the best compromise?

    I want a phone I can trust and I want a phone where I can do whatever I want with (technically and legally) and I want a phone that just works.
    I cannot have that, so I chose a compromise with myself:
    BlackBerrys (all I've had) worked perfectly fine in point 1 and 3, but not so good in point 2. That was a compromise I was able and willing to make.
    But now, I cannot have any of these. It's the same on Mac, but even more restricted (like not being able to root it if I want it, and the need for a special ecosystem for full-potential use). And it's way too expensive.
    Sadly, nothing now satisfies my needs. BlackBerry was the best compromise I was able to make. But that stopped working for me for all the named reasons.
    12-18-20 05:53 PM
  17. manny2's Avatar
    Here's a wild idea, with the u.s global order breaking down somewhat, we'll probably see the emergence of new phone operating systems, as the old imperial empires reemerge. Perhaps they can open source bbos or qnx os (probably not due to their car business) and one of these empires will takeup the code base for development, and we'll get a new phone os. Perhaps something like this already happened with sailfish os whose phones were adopted by russian postal service. Kaios, india got a stake in that.
    Last edited by manny2; 12-19-20 at 07:06 AM.
    12-19-20 06:31 AM
  18. conite's Avatar
    Here's a wild idea, with the u.s global order breaking down somewhat, we'll probably see the emergence of new phone operating systems, as the old imperial empires reemerge. Perhaps they can open source bbos or qnx os (probably not due to their car business) and one of these empires will takeup the code base for development, and we'll get a new phone os. Perhaps something like this already happened with sailfish os whose phones were adopted by russian postal service. Kaios, india got a stake in that.
    No one needs ancient Java code to create a new OS.

    Not to mention that consumers and businesses buy devices for their ecosystems - not for their OSes.
    12-19-20 07:33 AM
  19. manny2's Avatar
    Perhaps in europe theyll want more security than the u.s centric ios and google, given we will be seeing more conflict there. Germany and france come to mind.
    12-20-20 06:28 AM
  20. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Perhaps in europe theyll want more security than the u.s centric ios and google, given we will be seeing more conflict there. Germany and france come to mind.
    How does that benefit OM for what they intend as NA centric?
    12-20-20 08:24 AM
  21. conite's Avatar
    Perhaps in europe theyll want more security than the u.s centric ios and google, given we will be seeing more conflict there. Germany and france come to mind.
    How do you define secure?
    12-20-20 09:49 AM
  22. pdr733's Avatar
    Perhaps in europe theyll want more security than the u.s centric ios and google, given we will be seeing more conflict there. Germany and france come to mind.
    It is one thing that there will be no major conflict between France and Germany (other than on the football field, and on leftover food around 2.00 am during those neverending EU Summits ), but even if there was, how it would be related to reliance on US based OSes?
    And if Europe as a whole wanted a non US based mobile OS, why would they hire an American startup, which has no own OS development to begin with?
    12-20-20 10:18 AM
  23. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    It is one thing that there will be no major conflict between France and Germany (other than on the football field, and on leftover food around 2.00 am during those neverending EU Summits ), but even if there was, how it would be related to reliance on US based OSes?
    And if Europe as a whole wanted a non US based mobile OS, why would they hire an American startup, which has no own OS development to begin with?
    Plus no economic resources for that level of endeavor.....
    pdr733 likes this.
    12-20-20 10:19 AM
  24. manny2's Avatar
    People here were complaining about their being no third os, so i was just theorising how something like that may occur.
    12-20-20 02:31 PM
  25. pdr733's Avatar
    People here were complaining about their being no third os, so i was just theorising how something like that may occur.
    OK, but if there will be a Chinese, Russian, or Indian OS (these are the countries most likely to embark on an “own OS” project, roughly in that order), it will have nothing to do with either BBOS or BB10 (both proprietary, Canadian OSes that havent been in development since ages), nor with BB Ltd and its licensee Onward Mobility.
    12-20-20 02:40 PM
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