10-15-16 03:39 PM
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  1. anon(9353145)'s Avatar
    Ape their competitors in hardware and end the confusion. Every new device release is different from the one that preceded it. There has been nothing remotely approaching a sense of consistency in years. With the coming (rumoured) release of the Argon, Neon, Mercury they may finally be in a position to offer a reliable device lineup for consumers.

    Assuming they’re decent mid-range devices – and priced appropriately – BlackBerry should follow in Samsung and Apple’s footsteps and offer a form factor that is consistent from year to year. I’d suggest that to round out their hardware portfolio they add one more, larger PKB device to complement the two all touch models. Ie. The PKB enabled Note or 6S+ version of the Mercury. If it’s possible and legal with Google requirements I’d make it a wide screen Passport like device (but maybe go with a 4 row keyboard for consistency).

    Then stagger releases of the upgraded versions of the all touch and pkb devices on alternating years so that people are on a 2 year upgrade cycle. Given that these devices are not going to sell in large volumes, that should give BlackBerry time to reduce their inventory before the refreshed device launches.

    And forget the silly names like Priv or Leap. Pick something simple for the All Touch lineup and name the larger model the PLUS. Same for PKB. EG. BlackBerry Classic, BlackBerry Classic PLUS.

    Just like Apple. Just like Samsung. No need to reinvent the wheel. Dedicate that R&D to software innovations and building out the existing software so that’s it’s world class.

    They still might not succeed in hardware (given the damage to the brand), but if they stop overthinking everything and radically changing hardware every six months, they might stand a chance. My $0.02.
    07-18-16 03:04 PM
  2. Dirtymike14's Avatar
    BlackBerry would love to be able to do that much like back with the Curve and Bold series, but they haven't made a phone in the past few years that has been successful enough to be worthy of an upgrade. Until they make one that has some decent amount of success, they have to keep experimenting with different devices

    Posted via CB10
    Dunt Dunt Dunt likes this.
    07-18-16 03:08 PM
  3. anon(9353145)'s Avatar
    BlackBerry would love to be able to do that much like back with the Curve and Bold series, but they haven't made a phone in the past few years that has been successful enough to be worthy of an upgrade. Until they make one that has some decent amount of success, they have to keep experimenting with different devices

    Posted via CB10
    I'd argue that just reinforces the notion that radically changing the form factor every time just makes them look more desperate. At some point you fish or cut bait. The rumoured Argon and Neon look like good devices, so just add one more larger PKB, and stick with it for more than one product cycle. That alone is a signal of confidence in what they've made.
    TgeekB likes this.
    07-18-16 03:13 PM
  4. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Think the problem has been no device has ever really sold well enough for BlackBerry to "stick with it". Not sure if that will change with these new phones... depends on sales. But it also kinda depends on who they buy the phones from...

    And there was a LOT of hope with the Passport, Classic and even the PRIV that BlackBerry's "differentiator" would be the keyboard. But I think sales of the Passport, Classic and Priv have helped Chen and company see that has become a very small niche, within BlackBerry's niche.

    Thus is seems the two all touch devcies will come before the PKB....

    But BlackBerry "success" lays with Enterprise and if they feel BlackBerry is a company they can still trust to provide a solution for long term or if they just need to go a different route now.

    As for consumers... BlackBerry is not going to even try to "succeed" in that market I think. Sure they will offer the phones and the few that feel that the security that is added onto those devices is worth something... or they just have a fondness of the Brand. But overall consumers will save a $100 - $150 dollars and buy elsewhere.
    Tien-Lin Chang likes this.
    07-18-16 03:14 PM
  5. anon(9353145)'s Avatar
    Think the problem has been no device has ever really sold well enough for BlackBerry to "stick with it". Not sure if that will change with these new phones... depends on sales. But it also kinda depends on who they buy the phones from...

    And there was a LOT of hope with the Passport, Classic and even the PRIV that BlackBerry's "differentiator" would be the keyboard. But I think sales of the Passport, Classic and Priv have helped Chen and company see that has become a very small niche, within BlackBerry's niche.

    Thus is seems the two all touch devcies will come before the PKB....

    But BlackBerry "success" lays with Enterprise and if they feel BlackBerry is a company they can still trust to provide a solution for long term or if they just need to go a different route now.

    As for consumers... BlackBerry is not going to even try to "succeed" in that market I think. Sure they will offer the phones and the few that feel that the security that is added onto those devices is worth something... or they just have a fondness of the Brand. But overall consumers will save a $100 - $150 dollars and buy elsewhere.
    I think they've come to the point where the cost of manufacturing (through third parties) is as low as they can go. So if the two all touch devices aren't successful, they may as well pack it in. But even if sales are lower for the first batch, they need to stick with a consistent form factor is my main point. And stop with the random silly names, ha.

    I hear you on consumers, completely. But enterprise looks at the bottom line as well, I know, I've been in that position in the past. The Priv was priced outside what one would pay for a fleet of devices for the rank and file. It was a status item for those who still like BlackBerry and just about nobody else. If they can make the cost of manufacture low enough that they can price devices appropriately for enterprise, I think they need to settle on reliable form factors as well.

    IT hates change. Bureaucracy hates change. They have to recognize this is their market.
    07-18-16 03:22 PM
  6. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    I agree... they need two basic form factors that will stay and be updated over time. I think for enterprise they would like for the hardware to be standardized for a few years at least...

    Basically do what Apple does... only add the PKB form factor.
    anon(9353145) likes this.
    07-18-16 03:38 PM
  7. anon(9353145)'s Avatar
    I agree... they need two basic form factors that will stay and be updated over time. I think for enterprise they would like for the hardware to be standardized for a few years at least...

    Basically do what Apple does... only add the PKB form factor.
    Not to mention the savings from not reinventing the wheel every time. Considering they're basically a software company at this point, they need to get hardware sorted. It's a means to an end (ie software and services delivery system). Let LG, HTC, etc who are basically hardware companies do all the heavy R&D lifting in the future.
    07-18-16 03:42 PM
  8. nohope4me's Avatar
    Bbry needs to get out of the device game to succeed on android. At this point they can't offer anything attractive at a decent price. Don't have the brand prestige, channels, leverage or talent to compete with the rest. Great companies with great phones are getting scraps from Samsung.
    07-18-16 05:04 PM
  9. anon(9353145)'s Avatar
    Bbry needs to get out of the device game to succeed on android. At this point they can't offer anything attractive at a decent price. Don't have the brand prestige, channels, leverage or talent to compete with the rest. Great companies with great phones are getting scraps from Samsung.
    So, software only? You don't think they can find a niche in enterprise and with pkb?
    07-18-16 05:07 PM
  10. Tien-Lin Chang's Avatar
    I think in order to really get a position in Android world BBRY needs to really clear what they can offer and where their strength are.

    BIS is dead in public field due to the crazy expensive/ small data plan compare to others. Most people don't given up their HD video stream, working documents over cloud in order to save few MBs on email/SMS.

    PKB is good and bad at same time. It offer the feel of touch and it can't be replaced by virtual keyboard. But the fix form cripple it from being awesome in different language system and the design also affect the blackberry virtual keyboard. Yes the way it choose next word is cute but without swipe is not more efficient than other keyboard provide by Google/Microsoft/third parties.

    Craft quality? C'mon they all come from Foxconn like other brands phone, you can't take credit from that and charge more.

    Name? The most of the world not even recognize you anymore.....

    Safety? They don't even start to use biometric sensor yet. Without BIS/BES I doubt it safer than others.

    Hub is the only thing I feel it can shine on Android. However what they achieved in priv really sucks. They didn't put enough effort to root the hub in the base of the OS (which take control of all the notifications, emails, messages and events like a boss) and made the hub looks and works like a third party add-on. It even got isolated out by those XDA hackers and applied to other phone easily and it just make blackberry looks like an amateur.

    I think they have to start from ground zero. Working through the Android OS and maximize their hub to provide the unique UX. Keep an eye on those Chinese brands and make product deliver in time with right price. Premium price is not your game but you still need to put those nice stuff into your product and make them work well (camera, biometric sensors, battery life...etc). Working hard for the next great idea which might stand you out from others. That's the only way to survive and get stronger in Android market.
    anon(9353145) likes this.
    07-18-16 07:33 PM
  11. anon(9353145)'s Avatar
    I think in order to really get a position in Android world BBRY needs to really clear what they can offer and where their strength are.
    I think the fact that there are Chinese fans of BlackBerry even now is reason enough to think they should continue, lol.

    Good points btw, I totally agree they should keep an eye on those Chinese brands..
    Tien-Lin Chang likes this.
    07-18-16 07:50 PM
  12. nohope4me's Avatar
    Not really. Moving forward BBRY will rely on using existing handsets from other manufacturers "a la Nexus" style. PKB don't quite justify the investment from a hardware perspective. Just too small of a segment. Also the screen real estate sacrifice and additional costs for a keyboard wouldn't increase the market share, just continue to prolong the inevitable.
    Just my humble opinion.
    Tien-Lin Chang likes this.
    07-18-16 09:18 PM
  13. mithrazor's Avatar
    They need a full touch offering. Plain and simple.

    They haven't had a *real* one since the Z10 more than 3 years ago

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    07-20-16 01:24 PM
  14. anon(9353145)'s Avatar
    Not really. Moving forward BBRY will rely on using existing handsets from other manufacturers "a la Nexus" style. PKB don't quite justify the investment from a hardware perspective. Just too small of a segment. Also the screen real estate sacrifice and additional costs for a keyboard wouldn't increase the market share, just continue to prolong the inevitable.
    Just my humble opinion.
    I guess it depends on whether the pkb fans are core customers. I have to think so, otherwise Chen would have ditched them already (is my guess). Certainly not a demand for them in the consumer market.

    Posted via CB10
    07-20-16 01:35 PM
  15. Sairos's Avatar
    They need a full touch offering. Plain and simple.

    They haven't had a *real* one since the Z10 more than 3 years ago

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    Yeah they needed the Priv to be that.. The Flagship had to be without a PKB to appeal to the masses.. But they messed that up.
    TgeekB likes this.
    07-23-16 03:11 AM
  16. kkoo's Avatar
    Whatever they do, they are bound to fail yet again if they don' market the living bejeezus out of the next releases. If we don' see teevee ads and billboards world-over in the next year, it's game over for the handset division.

    You cannot offer mid-quality stuff for high-quality price and get away with it in the now-saturated market. Pricing has to be throw-away in the beginning, if you want to capture market share at all. Just look at what Kia managed to do - what a success story.

    Posted via CB10
    Sairos and Tien-Lin Chang like this.
    07-23-16 01:19 PM
  17. Sairos's Avatar
    You cannot offer mid-quality stuff for high-quality price and get away with it in the now-saturated market. Pricing has to be throw-away in the beginning, if you want to capture market share at all. Just look at what Kia managed to do - what a success story.
    True, It can be only done if you're an established big company.. then if you want, you can sell crap for high prices and people would still buy.. BlackBerry is not like that anymore.. If the Priv was released earlier.. Something like 2011/2012, It would've sold even if it had a premium price.. You still had the strong brand name back then..

    Now like you argue, BlackBerry must take a hit on the price in order to be relevant in the market.. Then Later on they can have premium offerings.. Just check how the Chinese started.. They start off by selling cheap great phones so they would capture attention and become a player in the market, Later on they start releasing premium Phones.. Ex. Huawei.. Even Xiaomi is moving into that direction now, they said the market and their users demand premium phones.
    Tien-Lin Chang likes this.
    07-23-16 04:58 PM
  18. Sairos's Avatar
    I think the fact that there are Chinese fans of BlackBerry even now is reason enough to think they should continue, lol.

    Good points btw, I totally agree they should keep an eye on those Chinese brands..
    I think they can't compete with the Chinese no matter what they do.. Even after teaming up with a Chinese company like TCL.. You either try to beat the competition or make it irrelevant.. BlackBerry can't beat them and so they need to position themselves differently to offer something the Chinese don't.. Its not all Specs and Price like some people think.. The striking majority of people don't know or care about Specs.. They buy the trendy and what is viewed to be good in the eyes of the public..

    If its all Specs, Price & the value package.. Xiaomi would top the world.. and maybe OnePlus coming 2nd after them if they release more phones and have a complete lineup.. So its apparently not about that.. Just check the Bloody iPhone, I still get amazed by that phone's price.. Yet its selling like Drugs.

    Now, what is the differentiating factor that BlackBerry should have in order to make the competition irrelevant?.. I've no idea.. Wish I knew, I would've sent them a msg xD.. But in my opinion, if you can't beat the competition, you need to uniquely position yourself away from it and give people a reason to buy your products..
    07-23-16 05:13 PM
  19. Tien-Lin Chang's Avatar
    If its all Specs, Price & the value package.. Xiaomi would top the world.. and maybe OnePlus coming 2nd after them if they release more phones and have a complete lineup.. So its apparently not about that.. Just check the Bloody iPhone, I still get amazed by that phone's price.. Yet its selling like Drugs.
    I thought BB fans should understand and feel the iPhone's game the most lol. In the end of the day its the same group of people accept/urge/promote the idea of BB join the premium battle with "flagship" devices featuring a dead OS (yes, dead. Its dead since release, no major update after release till now, not having a real ecosystem) and pkb. The other side provide a light year ahead complete ecosystem resonating with the features-evolutioning OS, BB-level of backup/restore, some best-on-the market hardwares (strong SoC, some best screen and the best overall tuning camera) and they have running great commercials while maintaining a mega selling network. For sure they can charge for premium price and seduce people like drugs lol.

    It's a living pipedream of BB fans without the right logo lol.
    07-23-16 06:40 PM
  20. Sairos's Avatar
    I thought BB fans should understand and feel the iPhone's game the most lol. In the end of the day its the same group of people accept/urge/promote the idea of BB join the premium battle with "flagship" devices featuring a dead OS (yes, dead. Its dead since release, no major update after release till now, not having a real ecosystem) and pkb. The other side provide a light year ahead complete ecosystem resonating with the features-evolutioning OS, BB-level of backup/restore, some best-on-the market hardwares (strong SoC, some best screen and the best overall tuning camera) and they have running great commercials while maintaining a mega selling network. For sure they can charge for premium price and seduce people like drugs lol.

    It's a living pipedream of BB fans without the right logo lol.
    Well, I kinda meant iPhone in relation to Android, not BB10.. Since we're discussing how BlackBerry can succeed in Android. I can see how BlackBerry would lose in a BB10 comparison..

    For quite a few years now iPhone has been keeping up with Android but not the other way around.. Also not a very good battery in my opinion.. They don't have something that justifies the price yet they're selling.. So it's not about who offers the best specs or pricing (although BB needs to start with reasonable prices) Its more than that.

    iPhone doesn't justify its price because everything that it offers is available on cheaper phones, even more features are available on Androids.. In a more fair world, iPhone wouldn't be sold for such price.. If it was made in California I would say why not, at least they're paying good salaries to Americans.. But they're producing it in China with incredibly low wages like everyone else, yet they're not charging what everyone else is charging.. So what's the argument..

    Apple is still offering the price of having an iPhone in 2007/2010.. Where every other phone was inferior to them and the iPhone was quite the revelation.. This is not the case anymore.. So the price is not justifiable.
    Last edited by Sairos; 07-23-16 at 07:00 PM.
    Tien-Lin Chang likes this.
    07-23-16 06:49 PM
  21. Tien-Lin Chang's Avatar
    Well, I kinda meant iPhone in relation to Android, not BB10.. Since we're discussing how BlackBerry can succeed in Android. I can see how BlackBerry would lose in a BB10 comparison..

    For quite a few years now iPhone has been keeping up with Android but not the other way around.. Also not a very good battery in my opinion.. They don't have something that justifies the price yet they're selling.. So it's not about who offers the best specs or pricing (although BB needs to start with reasonable prices) Its more than that.

    iPhone doesn't justify its price because everything that it offers is available on cheaper phones, even more features are available on Androids.. In a more fair world, iPhone wouldn't be sold for such price.. If it was made in California I would say why not, at least they're paying good salaries to Americans.. But they're producing it in China with incredibly low wages like everyone else, yet they're not charging what everyone else is charging.. So what's the argument..

    Apple is still offering the price of having an iPhone in 2007/2010.. Where every other phone was inferior to them and the iPhone was quite the revelation.. This is not the case anymore.. So the price is not justifiable.
    Yes there are Android players providing products on par or better than iPhone in some areas (2k OLED screen, big ram, hi-fi audio, high resolution camera...) but still in overall solution there's no yet a single player being better than iPhone in every aspect so iPhone still hold it own advantage in total UX. And yes again I agree that iPhone is to expensive and getting too much profit from customers - which is also a pipedream for every company. However just take a look at the SSD market like two years ago, why Intel can sell like twice as expensive as others with product? I think Apple is on that turning point as well and if they keep providing unique edge then for sure they can still getting that super healthy profit from the market.
    app_Developer likes this.
    07-24-16 04:28 AM
  22. anon(9353145)'s Avatar
    I think they can't compete with the Chinese no matter what they do.. Even after teaming up with a Chinese company like TCL.. You either try to beat the competition or make it irrelevant.. BlackBerry can't beat them and so they need to position themselves differently to offer something the Chinese don't.. Its not all Specs and Price like some people think.. The striking majority of people don't know or care about Specs.. They buy the trendy and what is viewed to be good in the eyes of the public..

    If its all Specs, Price & the value package.. Xiaomi would top the world.. and maybe OnePlus coming 2nd after them if they release more phones and have a complete lineup.. So its apparently not about that.. Just check the Bloody iPhone, I still get amazed by that phone's price.. Yet its selling like Drugs.

    Now, what is the differentiating factor that BlackBerry should have in order to make the competition irrelevant?.. I've no idea.. Wish I knew, I would've sent them a msg xD.. But in my opinion, if you can't beat the competition, you need to uniquely position yourself away from it and give people a reason to buy your products..
    Sure, marketing and a solid sales dept (that goes to carriers and computer outlets) make a big difference a la Apple. They're always located by the main aisle near the entrance (phones), and their desktop / tablets are at the end of the same aisle with a massive Apple logo glowing like a lighthouse beacon. That certainly helps.

    Apple definitely needs to bring their "A" game with iOS 10 and the 20th anniversary iPhone. I suspect that's happening, and the iPhone 7 will be a relative dud in comparison as they hold back features. Even then, I think with Google continuing to improve on Android means Apple's going to have its work cut out for it to maintain their current marketshare at the price they charge.
    07-24-16 05:46 AM
  23. keliew's Avatar
    In terms of what technology is out there, it's pretty much mature across most devices. Within the Android sphere, there isn't much differences from one to another. The hardware is more or less the same; you can find several fingerprint-enabled device for instance. The apps is most shared across all Android devices, which is a huge benefit to the users, but definitely not viable at the business level.

    Mobile business wants to keep users. And Google is smart enough that the Android environment is keeping users for Google, but not for the handsets companies.

    It's tough.

    For BlackBerry to really keep and grow it's market share, I think they have to differentiate themselves out of the box experience in terms of usability of the Android, i.e. in the BB10 way. BB10's user experience is good, but not good enough that the market knows about. And if they would go down this route, that means there'll be a lot of heavy customisation on the underlying Android code - I think. Changing the theme isn't going to do much.

    I think BlackBerry needs to know what sort of market they want to reach out to in order to frame up their future strategy with Android.

    I sure hope they won't be late again. Because handset manufacturers are starting the develop their own OS knowing that Android is limiting them, e.g. Huawei.

    BlackBerry Passport via CB10
    07-24-16 06:02 AM
  24. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    I sure hope they won't be late again. Because handset manufacturers are starting the develop their own OS knowing that Android is limiting them, e.g. Huawei.
    It's one thing to develop your own OS. It's a whole other thing to actually get marketshare for it.

    If anyone could get marketshare for their 3rd-Place OS, it should be Microsoft. They have literally thrown tens of billions of dollars at the problem, and they have a huge presence in both the consumer and especially the enterprise markets. Yet, without a quality ecosystem, they went nowhere.

    BB10 folks should have learned that lesson better than anyone. Having an ecosystem isn't a guarantee of success, but not having an ecosystem is a guarantee of failure.

    You also might say "Android Runtime" - but BB10 also should have taught people that Google isn't going to stand by and let others steal their ecosystem and use it to compete against Android. You're going to continue to see more and more apps rely on GMS (Google Mobile Services) and those apps won't work on generic runtimes unless the developers build and maintain a separate version - and history shows how unlikely that is to happen.

    I'm sure neither Apple or Google is too concerned about Huawei's new OS, which they probably intend mostly for other (non-phone) devices, as Samsung is doing with Tizen.
    JeepBB and Tien-Lin Chang like this.
    07-24-16 02:51 PM
  25. Sairos's Avatar
    Sure, marketing and a solid sales dept (that goes to carriers and computer outlets) make a big difference a la Apple. They're always located by the main aisle near the entrance (phones), and their desktop / tablets are at the end of the same aisle with a massive Apple logo glowing like a lighthouse beacon. That certainly helps.

    Apple definitely needs to bring their "A" game with iOS 10 and the 20th anniversary iPhone. I suspect that's happening, and the iPhone 7 will be a relative dud in comparison as they hold back features. Even then, I think with Google continuing to improve on Android means Apple's going to have its work cut out for it to maintain their current marketshare at the price they charge.
    I agree, its strong marketing and the public perception of a trendy product that have made them still strong today.. But like you said, at this point.. With the insane offerings out there from the Chinese, Apple is losing market share, Specially in China.. The stock took a strong hit from a few months due to decline in sales.. They offered the iPhone SE.. As a cheaper solution.. And good god that gave me a laugh.. If a $400-450 phone is their version of mid-range or cheap, then someone in Apple needs to get his head fixed..

    Apple is cashing in on the glory of the past when it comes to the iPhone.. The decline of sales and the loss of a strong market position in China shows you what has been happening. If they don't react to the price aspect, they will be taken over by the Chinese everywhere.. Do notice that most of the Chinese companies that are excelling, didn't expand on a worldwide range yet.. Xiaomi is only selling in a few countries with China & India being the main markets.. They didn't even come near the US or Europe.. Same goes for Oppo, Vivo & other Chinese companies.

    Back to our main discussion, As much as I dislike Apple's business model of pay more and get less.. It serves as a good example for BlackBerry, that you can be successful without having the best specs and cheapest price.. Which is what I'm getting at.. If they can Sell an iPhone with that price.. then BlackBerry can sell Android phones with Good specs and reasonable but not very cheap price.
    Last edited by Sairos; 07-24-16 at 03:26 PM.
    07-24-16 03:16 PM
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