05-11-20 01:45 PM
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  1. DonHB's Avatar
    What ever gives you the idea that a epically failed idea from 2013 would succeed in 2020 is beyond me? All this nonsense and in the end you’re not even offering a new idea? The Android/iPhone OEMs developed and continue to develop their own security and privacy solutions. Just like the PKB, BB10 security and privacy support isn’t demanded by enough consumers to amount to anything remotely meaningful. If and when it does, Apple, Google and Microsoft have already included the foundation and infrastructure to implement within their OS model strategies.

    Simply put there’s no buy-in now just like 7-8 years ago or 12-13 years ago. Consumers aren’t interested sitting inside their four walls afraid to go outside from some kind of self-inflicted paranoias...
    Past Performance is not indicative of future results...

    Even Facebook is claiming to be making changes to address customer (more likely governmental) privacy concerns as is Google.

    The goal is to provide a product that is acceptable to sufficient numbers of individuals so they would buy-in; to vote for development with dollars without the stigma of a crowd funded campaign. So, I would vote with my dollars if I could purchase a third party (i.e. Samsung Knox) slab handset with hardware root of trust that provides the Flow UX, modernized browser using the existing Browser UI, a new Android Player supporting API 28 with DTek and support for both Amazon's App Store and BlackBerry World.

    I hope my choices would minimize new development costs (I may even consider Android API 19) and time to market. Hopefully, if there is enough buy-in it would convince BlackBerry/QNX to further invest to make the platform more attractive to more people and to create a controlled IP sharing model applicable to both businesses and individuals. This is not beyond BlackBerry's purview as it has purchased WatchDox which is now being sold as Workspaces. Workspaces is, however, targeted to business.

    What I chose may not be enough for most people. Which is why I would like to have a survey of what would get people to buy-in.
    02-19-20 10:46 AM
  2. app_Developer's Avatar
    I have not been able to find anything definitive. Because resource managers (aka drivers) run in user mode, it would make a lot of sense to put in the work to support 32-bit code on 64-bit QNX 7. This should help utilize code from BB10. Running 32-bit drivers on a 64-bit OS would be a feature that neither Windows nor Linux have and should be of use for QNX customers migrating from 32-bit.
    <sigh> So again, this is not 1995. User-space drivers have existed in other operating systems for years. You're still reading off the QNX sales sheet from 20 years ago. The laptop I'm using right now has drivers running in user space. Probably your does, too</sigh>

    The actual problem with 64/32 multimode on ARM is that the ABIs are totally different and switching back and forth is expensive in terms of energy. So... why do you want to do this?? It would be less work and less risk to just port what needs to be ported to 64. But that's still not a 2 person project.

    (hint: there is a very good reason why Apple and Google forced app developers to go to 64-bit, and 3rd party hardware integrations even before that)

    Browser internals should be updated using what ever source would be most compatible with existing code and UI.
    You say that as if it's just some easy thing. How many people do you think it will take to do this?

    This should be thought of as a mixture of something beyond a beta program (release quality code) and a crowd sourcing project (without the stigma attached). The issue is how to fund this with the minimal upfront costs and having stakeholders actively help determine what features are added. This is to ensure developer investment would not be extraneous. .
    If it's a hobbyist project what user is going to pay for this? And if no users pay for it, then how on earth is this going to pay for itself?
    02-19-20 10:48 AM
  3. DonHB's Avatar
    A little off topic.. anyone wondering why a car needs two SD 820Am CPUs.

    Tesla's new Samsung built chips - but Tesla designed with their once Apple in house designer.... is capable of 36 trillion operations per second. A 2nd board is provided as backup, so the car would be capable of 72 teraflops. That's like having twelve of the CPU/GUP setup of the XBOX ONE in their new cars.

    But there is no BlackBerry synergy... as Tesla doesn't use subsystems like most Auto OEM, and AGL is what they used to start building their OS. Pretty much one EUC runs all the car.
    It is to allow OTA updates to 16 modules in the Land Rover without interrupting functionality of the system running on SnapDragon.
    02-19-20 10:50 AM
  4. conite's Avatar
    Past Performance is not indicative of future results...

    Even Facebook is claiming to be making changes to address customer (more likely governmental) privacy concerns as is Google.

    The goal is to provide a product that is acceptable to sufficient numbers of individuals so they would buy-in; to vote for development with dollars without the stigma of a crowd funded campaign. So, I would vote with my dollars if I could purchase a third party (i.e. Samsung Knox) slab handset with hardware root of trust that provides the Flow UX, modernized browser using the existing Browser UI, a new Android Player supporting API 28 with DTek and support for both Amazon's App Store and BlackBerry World.

    I hope my choices would minimize new development costs (I may even consider Android API 19) and time to market. Hopefully, if there is enough buy-in it would convince BlackBerry/QNX to further invest to make the platform more attractive to more people and to create a controlled IP sharing model applicable to both businesses and individuals. This is not beyond BlackBerry's purview as it has purchased WatchDox which is now being sold as Workspaces. Workspaces is, however, targeted to business.

    What I chose may not be enough for most people. Which is why I would like to have a survey of what would get people to buy-in.
    Please address my question. If you don't ever listen to anything that anyone has to say on the subject, why do you continue to engage?
    02-19-20 11:14 AM
  5. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    What I chose may not be enough for most people. Which is why I would like to have a survey of what would get people to buy-in.
    Create a new thread and make it a Poll as ask what you want to ask....

    But in the end there aren't that many BB10 fans, and even fewer still on CrackBerry. I don't know how you really would gauge interest in your proposal. Might want to add some level of marketing to your shoestring budget, in order to get the word out there. CrackBerry sure wasn't enough for the BBMo phones...
    02-19-20 01:03 PM
  6. conite's Avatar
    What I chose may not be enough for most people. Which is why I would like to have a survey of what would get people to buy-in.


    Create a new thread and make it a Poll as ask what you want to ask....

    But in the end there aren't that many BB10 fans, and even fewer still on CrackBerry. I don't know how you really would gauge interest in your proposal. Might want to add some level of marketing to your shoestring budget, in order to get the word out there. CrackBerry sure wasn't enough for the BBMo phones...
    To add, Don has to be honest and start the price at $2k + hardware - even though that's probably an order of magnitude or two too low. But anything lower than $2k is pure comedy.
    02-19-20 01:07 PM
  7. Emaderton3's Avatar
    Past Performance is not indicative of future results...

    Even Facebook is claiming to be making changes to address customer (more likely governmental) privacy concerns as is Google.

    The goal is to provide a product that is acceptable to sufficient numbers of individuals so they would buy-in; to vote for development with dollars without the stigma of a crowd funded campaign. So, I would vote with my dollars if I could purchase a third party (i.e. Samsung Knox) slab handset with hardware root of trust that provides the Flow UX, modernized browser using the existing Browser UI, a new Android Player supporting API 28 with DTek and support for both Amazon's App Store and BlackBerry World.

    I hope my choices would minimize new development costs (I may even consider Android API 19) and time to market. Hopefully, if there is enough buy-in it would convince BlackBerry/QNX to further invest to make the platform more attractive to more people and to create a controlled IP sharing model applicable to both businesses and individuals. This is not beyond BlackBerry's purview as it has purchased WatchDox which is now being sold as Workspaces. Workspaces is, however, targeted to business.

    What I chose may not be enough for most people. Which is why I would like to have a survey of what would get people to buy-in.
    And this somehow worlds different than what BB10 was originally???
    02-19-20 01:24 PM
  8. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    And this somehow worlds different than what BB10 was originally???
    Pretty sure he thinks that at least a million of the twelve million one time BB10 buyers would want it (might never have been more than 8 million unique users). And that $100 each would cover it...

    Kinda like asking how many goals did they score in that football game they call the Super Bowl in the US.
    02-19-20 01:59 PM
  9. DonHB's Avatar
    And we've been blowing up that dream for the last few years every time you ask. But it doesn't seem to matter in the least what anyone says. That's why I question why you keep asking.
    You have also not acknowledged that you don't know the terms of BB's license or if it cares to maintain it now that BBMo is defunct.
    02-20-20 09:03 AM
  10. conite's Avatar
    You have also not acknowledged that you don't know the terms of BB's license or if it cares to maintain it now that BBMo is defunct.
    Huh? What licence? Who cares?
    02-20-20 09:05 AM
  11. Vlad Dl's Avatar
    I believe that whole OS10 being ditched was because BB didn't want to pay for drivers development for new Qualcom processor. Google didn't have a problem to pay it, why not join bandwagon. And here it is.. BBAndroid.
    Now that BB has drivers, what would hold them back? Engineers who got sacked.
    Even guy from Palo Alto who had happy idea creating first Android got stuck because his idea needed sufficient money to push it further(investors). Google sees opportunity to get user data by forcing users to accept access to their private life (camera, files, etc.) so take Android on their ship along with creator of Android.
    OS10 would pick up anytime if they would find sector to push their devices to. Governments, banks, etc.
    If BB keeps changing their mind like holding back OS10 when it was supposed to, then signing on with Amazon hoping to keep going and then change to Android, won't make them stable.
    Mr Chen needs to go as his decisions don't seem to work out. Chasing his own tail.
    BB needs radical change in their management like Apple had when Steve Jobs left and Apple went down and when he returned, he did the very thing to flip cards for everyone and expanded Apple to heights no one expected. Apple is now rolling on ideas created years ago but how long? Nothing new came out. I don't count those replicas that were released after 5S.
    So in all, BB has a chance to get back.. will they take it? Until then, I'm holding to my now 8years old Q10.
    Social media are one of your privacy abusers. None of them work on my BB.
    02-20-20 10:04 AM
  12. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Huh? What licence? Who cares?
    I think he just can't accept that the would might be here tomorrow, without new BlackBerry phones.

    I'm not sure why some don't get that TCL, BBMP and Optiemus... were the last shots, bottom of the barrel. There is no "what's next" for BlackBerry phones or Android Secure or BB10. Best shot at this point (long one) is someone, at some point (later might be better) wants the IP so they can create a phone with a KEYBOARD by BlackBerry, and knows how to make a profit on a divided niche market.

    Now 20 years from now... who know QNX might power the brain implant that everyone gets so they can be connected? (sorry it won't have a PKB - nor a drop of BB10 code) So as long as BlackBerry exists as a software and IoT company... there is hope of something one day.
    02-20-20 11:32 AM
  13. conite's Avatar
    I believe that whole OS10 being ditched was because BB didn't want to pay for drivers development for new Qualcom processor. Google didn't have a problem to pay it, why not join bandwagon. And here it is.. BBAndroid.
    Now that BB has drivers, what would hold them back? Engineers who got sacked.
    Even guy from Palo Alto who had happy idea creating first Android got stuck because his idea needed sufficient money to push it further(investors). Google sees opportunity to get user data by forcing users to accept access to their private life (camera, files, etc.) so take Android on their ship along with creator of Android.
    OS10 would pick up anytime if they would find sector to push their devices to. Governments, banks, etc.
    If BB keeps changing their mind like holding back OS10 when it was supposed to, then signing on with Amazon hoping to keep going and then change to Android, won't make them stable.
    Mr Chen needs to go as his decisions don't seem to work out. Chasing his own tail.
    BB needs radical change in their management like Apple had when Steve Jobs left and Apple went down and when he returned, he did the very thing to flip cards for everyone and expanded Apple to heights no one expected. Apple is now rolling on ideas created years ago but how long? Nothing new came out. I don't count those replicas that were released after 5S.
    So in all, BB has a chance to get back.. will they take it? Until then, I'm holding to my now 8years old Q10.
    Social media are one of your privacy abusers. None of them work on my BB.
    You may have missed the memo.

    Chen was hired back in the fall of 2013 after the BlackBerry BoD had decided to move away from hardware to focus on enterprise/endpoint software.

    It took them 3 years to complete the transition, and they are completely out of the handset game. They decided to monetise their existing IP by licencing to TCL for the last 2.5 years, but have no intention of doing anything themselves.
    02-20-20 11:35 AM
  14. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    I believe that whole OS10 being ditched was because BB didn't want to pay for drivers development for new Qualcom processor. Google didn't have a problem to pay it, why not join bandwagon. And here it is.. BBAndroid.
    Now that BB has drivers, what would hold them back? Engineers who got sacked.
    Even guy from Palo Alto who had happy idea creating first Android got stuck because his idea needed sufficient money to push it further(investors). Google sees opportunity to get user data by forcing users to accept access to their private life (camera, files, etc.) so take Android on their ship along with creator of Android.
    OS10 would pick up anytime if they would find sector to push their devices to. Governments, banks, etc.
    If BB keeps changing their mind like holding back OS10 when it was supposed to, then signing on with Amazon hoping to keep going and then change to Android, won't make them stable.
    Mr Chen needs to go as his decisions don't seem to work out. Chasing his own tail.
    BB needs radical change in their management like Apple had when Steve Jobs left and Apple went down and when he returned, he did the very thing to flip cards for everyone and expanded Apple to heights no one expected. Apple is now rolling on ideas created years ago but how long? Nothing new came out. I don't count those replicas that were released after 5S.
    So in all, BB has a chance to get back.. will they take it? Until then, I'm holding to my now 8years old Q10.
    Social media are one of your privacy abusers. None of them work on my BB.
    Chen was hired by Fairfax and the Board, to do what he did... get them out of the failure that BB10 was. You need to understand that BlackBerry was a business, and the whole point of a business is to make money for shareholders, not to make fans happy.

    Drivers might have been a tiny excuse that Chen used... and it might be a reason for not being able to chase the tiny number of units they were moving... at a declining rate. I fully believe that it would have taken 8 - 10 million units in sales to keep "real" development going. Maybe with 5 Million units they could have offered some kind of basic maintenance mode, but not the ongoing feature updates and new hardware incorporation that Android and iOS enjoyed.... so they'd fall behind.

    There was only one Steve Jobs....
    02-20-20 11:45 AM
  15. DonHB's Avatar
    <sigh> So again, this is not 1995. User-space drivers have existed in other operating systems for years. You're still reading off the QNX sales sheet from 20 years ago. The laptop I'm using right now has drivers running in user space. Probably your does, too</sigh>
    You missed the point. Having support for existing 32-bit apps should also allow the use of 32-bit drivers (maybe reused from BB10). Are you aware of any 64-bit OS that allows the use of 32-bit drivers? I believe it should be possible with QNX 7.

    The actual problem with 64/32 multimode on ARM is that the ABIs are totally different and switching back and forth is expensive in terms of energy. So... why do you want to do this?? It would be less work and less risk to just port what needs to be ported to 64. But that's still not a 2 person project.

    (hint: there is a very good reason why Apple and Google forced app developers to go to 64-bit, and 3rd party hardware integrations even before that)
    The goal is to minimize new development. If using using 32-bit code (e.g. Flow UX) running on new hardware does not provide performance gains over 6 year old hardware than more added development could be considered.

    You say that as if it's just some easy thing. How many people do you think it will take to do this?
    I am not familiar with the implementations of any of the software assets that could be reused or need to be reimplemented. So, I am in no position to guess. However, people here seem to think that the manpower required is the same as if starting from zero.

    If it's a hobbyist project what user is going to pay for this? And if no users pay for it, then how on earth is this going to pay for itself?
    No, don't misconstrue hobbyist project with customer driven development. The features in the initial release is to generate buy-in and should be considered as a vote to continue investment in development. This development could be in optimizations or in new features, but the choice should be customer driven.
    02-20-20 11:50 AM
  16. DonHB's Avatar
    Huh? What licence? Who cares?
    BlackBerry's Android license.
    02-20-20 11:53 AM
  17. conite's Avatar
    BlackBerry's Android license.
    So who cares?
    02-20-20 11:58 AM
  18. DonHB's Avatar
    And this somehow worlds different than what BB10 was originally???
    It takes time and money to change a product. This is somewhat like crowd funding, but you are buying a product that you can use, not a promise. Your dollars also act as a vote for further investment in development in the direction advertised. The product you purchased is a foundation to build on, not vaporware. That it works on current hardware shouldn't be minimized.

    If there is a feature you would require for buy-in what is it? For me it is a current (preferably native) browser and an an upgraded Android Player (preferably supporting at least API 28, i.e.Pie).
    Last edited by DonHB; 02-20-20 at 12:30 PM.
    02-20-20 12:08 PM
  19. DonHB's Avatar
    So who cares?
    Clearly, you don't. Why are you here?
    02-20-20 12:09 PM
  20. conite's Avatar
    Clearly, you don't. Why are you here?
    What does this have to do with re-birthing BB10??
    02-20-20 12:20 PM
  21. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    What does this have to do with re-birthing BB10??
    synergy my man....

    64Bit Hypervisor will be installed on these SD820A chipsets. We will then slap BB10.4 32 Bit on with some minor upgrade to key features like the browser. And in place of ART a "link" to BB Android Secure (sadly just Oreo) running simultaneously.

    And Cylance's AI could do all the coding work on nights and weekends.... it is a full AI right.
    ck2nb and JeepBB like this.
    02-20-20 02:16 PM
  22. app_Developer's Avatar
    You missed the point. Having support for existing 32-bit apps should also allow the use of 32-bit drivers (maybe reused from BB10). Are you aware of any 64-bit OS that allows the use of 32-bit drivers? I believe it should be possible with QNX 7.
    I'm not aware of a case of this on ARM. Of course it's possible, but people like phones that don't get hot, last the full day, etc. As I said before, there is an energy cost to doing this.

    I am not familiar with the implementations of any of the software assets that could be reused or need to be reimplemented. So, I am in no position to guess. However, people here seem to think that the manpower required is the same as if starting from zero.

    No, don't misconstrue hobbyist project with customer driven development. The features in the initial release is to generate buy-in and should be considered as a vote to continue investment in development. This development could be in optimizations or in new features, but the choice should be customer driven.
    That's fair. So the question is how do you get started?

    I think it's a massive undertaking. I'm not going to convince you it is. So what's next?
    02-20-20 02:54 PM
  23. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    So what's next?
    I'm not sure if Don's at Denial or Bargaining.... but with time (few years) I'm sure he'll come to acceptance.

    2014/2015 BB10 was ended.
    2016 BlackBerry smartphones ended - officially (last was 2015)
    2018/2019 BB Android was ended.
    2020 BlackBerry Mobile smartphones ended - officially (last was 2018)

    RIP
    02-20-20 03:50 PM
  24. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    The obvious thing is that NONE of this matters unless BB Ltd. wants to do it (because BB Ltd. would absolutely have to be driving this project, as they own it, there's no open-source, and no way to do any OS development by the open-source community), and the reality is that BB Ltd. has NO INTEREST in doing anything with BB10.

    Until that changes, it wouldn't matter if you showed up with a plan and $10B of your own money that you were prepared to blow on the project - it absolutely, positively cannot be done without BB's involvement. So until someone is prepared to go to BB and ask them if they'd be willing to take on this project, and get at least a tentative "yes" answer, this entire line of thought is completely pointless. Hell, even if you had $50B to spend on the project and cared nothing about recouping your money, it would STILL need BB's involvement and blessing. So until BB expresses some willingness to get involved in this, the whole concept is a waste of everyone's time. Which is why there have been ZERO people with any kind of development skill who have shown any interest at all - and in fact have been actively discouraging of it.

    BB10 is not like most other platforms that have had community development, where the OS has been open-source and the company didn't care what anyone did with it. BB10 is heavily locked down, there's no open source, no open hardware, and BB owns all the rights and is clearly willing to defend their ownership. That makes this a total non-starter.
    02-20-20 07:43 PM
  25. app_Developer's Avatar
    For reference other things one can do with $10B:

    - help hundreds of companies get off the ground and probably net yourself at least 1 or 2 or 10 amazing investments.

    - help living breathing human beings who are more critical to our future than a hot microkernel from 25 years ago that fit on a floppy that couldn’t even store the contents of this thread.
    Thud Hardsmack and ck2nb like this.
    02-20-20 07:54 PM
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