07-01-20 03:03 PM
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  1. waldos42's Avatar
    BlackBerry made millions off devices sold before the BB10 years. This was not just the money of SAF revenue. Even the early BB10 devices made money on sales.
    05-21-20 10:26 PM
  2. conite's Avatar
    BlackBerry made millions off devices sold before the BB10 years. This was not just the money of SAF revenue. Even the early BB10 devices made money on sales.
    Nope.

    BB10 lost many billions of dollars. Every single device sold added to the losses.

    And BBOS devices were basically loss-leaders for SAF revenue. The Wall Street Journal reported that BlackBerry's estimated profit margin on BBOS phones was -7%.
    05-21-20 10:35 PM
  3. waldos42's Avatar
    Thanks again for the input! The contracts for phone making lie dormant. I'm still interested to see what will happen next, if anything!
    05-21-20 10:37 PM
  4. joeldf's Avatar
    BlackBerry made millions off devices sold before the BB10 years. This was not just the money of SAF revenue. Even the early BB10 devices made money on sales.
    It was all SAF, and BB10 never made a profit.

    Looking back at the quarterly reports would tell you that.

    Otherwise, Thorsten Heins would not have been replaced with Chen a mere 11 months after the BB10 launch with the express purpose from the Board of Directors (and Prem Watsa) to get out of the handset business.
    05-21-20 10:39 PM
  5. eshropshire's Avatar
    BlackBerry should just build and design one more great BlackBerry phone. Challenge - make it better than the Passport SE! Price it for the high end buyer "After All It's The Last Great BlackBerry Phone! " . Just Do It!
    When BlackBerry first announced the Passport everyone complained that it was priced over $500. I am sure the something would happen again and complain the new phone was not priced like the new iPhone se or Pixel 4a. They will get upset and say they will wait until BlackBerry has a clearance.
    ppeters914 likes this.
    05-21-20 10:50 PM
  6. eshropshire's Avatar
    They can call it "The Nail In The Coffin Turbo 3000".

    But ya, we'd all love to see a new device, but it simply doesn't make financial sense.
    Wondering how you put a nail in a coffin that is already buried
    05-21-20 10:51 PM
  7. eshropshire's Avatar
    What recent fumble?

    What marketing turn around?

    Who is shocked by TCL and BlackBerry ending the licencing agreement early due to abysmal sales?
    Wish my company would have such a fumble. If BlackBerry had even one such fumble they would still be in the phone business.
    05-21-20 10:53 PM
  8. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Wondering how you put a nail in a coffin that is already buried
    Very long nails?

    Only hardware that BlackBerry is having made is Radar units (a lot like phones in some ways). But I bet those aren't even sold at a profit... it's the services that are the money behind those.

    Chen's never going to close the door on hardware... as I expect his always open to licences and wants to project that there is value there. And if someone like Bank of America agree to pay $500 for a KEY2 like device along with an extra $150 a month for the next three years for a full BlackBerry UEM/Cylance/SecureSmart/Spark Mobility Service. We might see another BlackBerry hardware device....

    But in the end... if the software is good enough, then the hardware just doesn't matter.
    jacobacevedog likes this.
    05-22-20 08:18 AM
  9. waldos42's Avatar
    Sounds good! I do notice that some businesses in my area still do hand all employees a BlackBerry for their work use. It also seems to be paired with some or all of the packages above. I know at least three in the area. It could be price, it could be trusted security. Maybe something could be built out on the model above!
    05-22-20 02:42 PM
  10. conite's Avatar
    Sounds good! I do notice that some businesses in my area still do hand all employees a BlackBerry for their work use. It also seems to be paired with some or all of the packages above. I know at least three in the area. It could be price, it could be trusted security. Maybe something could be built out on the model above!
    BlackBerry would much prefer you buy a fleet of Samsung Knox devices or iPhones and secure them with BlackBerry Spark Suites. There is no money in hardware.
    chain13 likes this.
    05-22-20 04:52 PM
  11. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Sounds good! I do notice that some businesses in my area still do hand all employees a BlackBerry for their work use. It also seems to be paired with some or all of the packages above. I know at least three in the area. It could be price, it could be trusted security. Maybe something could be built out on the model above!
    That would only further discourage any OEM especially BlackBerry from licensing hardware or BlackBerry reentering the mobile hardware space. I always laugh at customers of any company that brag about how long a product lasts before they're forced to buy a new product or think re-purposing or recycled longevity by the purchase of used hardware is something any company wants from it's user-base.

    Just like people complaining that BlackBerry sells it's software as monthly subscription. That's how every company makes it's living. By collecting money from you as frequently as possible. That's how BlackBerry made it's money from BBOS all those years ago. Monthly SAF collected through carriers who couldn't eliminate BlackBerry from the equation years ago so they could do the same thing.

    Posted via CB10
    chain13 likes this.
    05-22-20 05:27 PM
  12. Gene Fells's Avatar

    I always laugh at customers of any company that brag about how long a product lasts before they're forced to buy a new product or think re-purposing or recycled longevity by the purchase of used hardware is something any company wants from it's user-base.

    Posted via CB10
    Does that also apply to the many apple customers here that fill the forum with claims of long product life because of OS updates?

    Just asking for a friend, of course.....


    Posted via CB10
    05-22-20 06:11 PM
  13. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Does that also apply to the many apple customers here that fill the forum with claims of long product life because of OS updates?

    Just asking for a friend, of course.....


    Posted via CB10
    Not really because Apple has it's revenue stream far more diversified than any licensed Android OEM and BlackBerry wasn't ever diversified. Apple does everything it can to force hardware updates by consumers. I don't really see Apple promoting keeping hardware once paid off

    Posted via CB10
    05-22-20 06:21 PM
  14. EchoTango's Avatar
    Hi All !

    New to this forum but known to some of you....I think

    In reviewing Apple's financials one thing is quite stark, they are a one product company if you look at it from a revenue and profit perspective. The iPhone and iTunes generates the bulk of the revenues and profits by a huge margin even though they sell Mac's, Apple TV and other lessor products. The Mac still struggles against the PC even with the iPhone to Mac closed proprietary connection. Apple TV has not taken off and still is stuck in very low percentages when compared to other streaming services and today runs at a loss.

    The simple fact is like any product, the mobile phone is commoditizing and the market has become saturated with relatively inexpensive android phones which Apple can not and never will compete with. This trend will only continue and consumer prices will continue to fall running in direct opposite to Apple's business model. Apple adds more features on a regularly scheduled release basis, incrementally increasing the price on every new version. This has given then a seemingly endless ocean of cash to dip into and a locked-in user base to further exploit with iTunes.

    This is all about to change. Their last quarter showed cracks in the user uptake of new upgrades and a reducing market share with Android. Folks don't seem to want to pay $1500+ for a phone when a $600 device will generally do the job. However, their volumes are so large it will take a few years for this to start seriously biting into Apple's financial health, but their rate of growth is seriously slowing.
    05-23-20 09:49 AM
  15. conite's Avatar
    Hi All !

    New to this forum but known to some of you....I think

    In reviewing Apple's financials one thing is quite stark, they are a one product company if you look at it from a revenue and profit perspective. The iPhone and iTunes generates the bulk of the revenues and profits by a huge margin even though they sell Mac's, Apple TV and other lessor products. The Mac still struggles against the PC even with the iPhone to Mac closed proprietary connection. Apple TV has not taken off and still is stuck in very low percentages when compared to other streaming services and today runs at a loss.

    The simple fact is like any product, the mobile phone is commoditizing and the market has become saturated with relatively inexpensive android phones which Apple can not and never will compete with. This trend will only continue and consumer prices will continue to fall running in direct opposite to Apple's business model. Apple adds more features on a regularly scheduled release basis, incrementally increasing the price on every new version. This has given then a seemingly endless ocean of cash to dip into and a locked-in user base to further exploit with iTunes.

    This is all about to change. Their last quarter showed cracks in the user uptake of new upgrades and a reducing market share with Android. Folks don't seem to want to pay $1500+ for a phone when a $600 device will generally do the job. However, their volumes are so large it will take a few years for this to start seriously biting into Apple's financial health, but their rate of growth is seriously slowing.
    Apple knows they are in a real pickle going forward.

    People simply aren't going to keep paying $800+ for devices when some great stuff is out there for less than $500.

    The iPhone SE is a desperate attempt to at least salvage their ecosystem revenue at the expense of their much, much more lucrative hardware revenue.
    05-23-20 10:07 AM
  16. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Apple knows they are in a real pickle going forward.

    People simply aren't going to keep paying $800+ for devices when some great stuff is out there for less than $500.

    The iPhone SE is a desperate attempt to at least salvage their ecosystem revenue at the expense of their much, much more lucrative hardware revenue.
    Thing is most Android Players are in the same pickle... only they don't have other revenue streams to off set the decline in sales.

    Samsung has been able to cannibalize Android smartphone sales, but they too are facing problems. Because most their profit didn't come from their smartphone sales, but from the components they sold to others. But others aren't building products like they were, so Samsung has seen their profits take a nose dive as components sales stall.

    With lower volumes, even the Chinese players are having to inch up their prices.... OnePlus isn't the value option it once was. Still a great deal for the OnePlus 8 Pro at $899 compared with the Top of Line Galaxy or iPhone.

    One of the biggest players, Huawei - not sure how things will turn out for them if the US/Google issue don't get resolved. Before the pandemic they were forecasting 20% fewer sales for 2020 over 2019. But February saw a 40% decline in YoY smartphone sales across the board. Looking like they'll stick to Android without Google Mobile Services rather than Harmony OS.

    COVID-19 will impact all hardware manufactures this year.... added to already declining sales, it's a going to be a tough pickle for all. More so those that depend on volume or that have struggled for years without turning profits.

    I don't think Apple will ever dominate global smartphone marektshare... but I also don't think folks here need to worry so much about their future.
    chain13 likes this.
    05-27-20 08:59 AM
  17. conite's Avatar
    Thing is most Android Players are in the same pickle... only they don't have other revenue streams to off set the decline in sales.

    Samsung has been able to cannibalize Android smartphone sales, but they too are facing problems. Because most their profit didn't come from their smartphone sales, but from the components they sold to others. But others aren't building products like they were, so Samsung has seen their profits take a nose dive as components sales stall.

    With lower volumes, even the Chinese players are having to inch up their prices.... OnePlus isn't the value option it once was. Still a great deal for the OnePlus 8 Pro at $899 compared with the Top of Line Galaxy or iPhone.

    One of the biggest players, Huawei - not sure how things will turn out for them if the US/Google issue don't get resolved. Before the pandemic they were forecasting 20% fewer sales for 2020 over 2019. But February saw a 40% decline in YoY smartphone sales across the board. Looking like they'll stick to Android without Google Mobile Services rather than Harmony OS.

    COVID-19 will impact all hardware manufactures this year.... added to already declining sales, it's a going to be a tough pickle for all. More so those that depend on volume or that have struggled for years without turning profits.

    I don't think Apple will ever dominate global smartphone marektshare... but I also don't think folks here need to worry so much about their future.
    I actually disagree. Samsung, as a company, is far far more diversified than Apple.

    Apple's entire future is entirely wrapped up in the iPhone.
    05-27-20 10:26 AM
  18. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    I actually disagree. Samsung, as a company, is far far more diversified than Apple.

    Apple's entire future is entirely wrapped up in the iPhone.
    Samsung is diversified - Their buying of Harmon (QNX old owners) expanded that diversity. But a big chuck of their business is smartphones and the parts for smartphones and other electronics. Slow down in production isn't good for anyone.

    In the end I don't see either company going away.... nor do investors or the folks that watch these companies.

    But back OT: I don't see market conditions favorable to BlackBerry or anyone else... bringing new BlackBerry phones to the market.
    chain13 likes this.
    05-27-20 11:30 AM
  19. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    $800 phone or refrigerator or washing board isn’t relevant as much as whether positive economic cycle restarts
    05-27-20 03:01 PM
  20. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    $800 phone or refrigerator or washing board isn’t relevant as much as whether positive economic cycle restarts
    One thing that people do seem to be willing to spend on... Vacations. We had a very busy weekend here in PCB.
    05-27-20 03:37 PM
  21. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    One thing that people do seem to be willing to spend on... Vacations. We had a very busy weekend here in PCB.
    AMI, SPB and other beaches have been pretty slammed last two weekends too.
    05-27-20 07:43 PM
  22. Alexey Gurevski's Avatar
    There is an alternative approach which could help BlackBerry.

    But first I ought to say that I live in a country which has never followed capitalistic principles so I have a totally different mindset, my education was built on different paradigms than people's from the Western World. Perhaps I'm wrong at some points, so don't treat this idea seriously, consider it like a fiction story.

    What is the fundamental problem I see? Lack of apps and outdated hardware. The OS itself is great, build quality is awesome, design and variety fit everyone's needs.
    How could the problem be fixed if BlackBerry was found in my country? The government would step up and offered its help to save the company. Here what it means in practice:
    1. The government would become a loan guarantor.
    2. It could order thousands/millions of devices (phones/tablets) for public sector, schools, police, etc.
    3. Start a campaign in mass media and on the market, smth. like "Buy Canadian phones". Everyone from the government starting from the PM would claim "I use a Blackberry phone", "Let's have chat in BBM", etc. Everyone must be really proud of using such a great device.
    4. Make a list of "socially important" services: Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, etc. Force the owners of those services to provide an app for Blackberry OS. Otherwise they would be blocked in the country.
    5. It's not easy to get a Snapdragon 865 CPU and put it into an old phone to upgrade it. OS Drivers are the main issue. It can be solved by manufacturers as well. The government just need to force them to develop the drivers. Otherwise, forbid sales of devices with those CPUs or increase tariffs.

    So with the help of the government the company could increase demand, increase and improve supply on the local market. Boom, the strong foundation is built and the company can expand to the world's market.
    Why should the government help to a private company? The answer could be that the higher is the income the more taxes you get. But in the worst case the government could nationalize the company.

    Why could it work? Canadian market is large and wealthy enough not to let "Big Players" to ignore the threat.
    Why it won't turn into reality?
    1. This approach breaks the nature of capitalism, private property, liberty, etc.
    2. It violates the rules of WTO and probably dozens of other organizations which Canada is a member of. Anyone cares?

    On the other hand, never say never, the history knows a lot of examples like Roosevelt's statism during the Great Depression, Trump's attempt to bring the companies back to the US, this coronavirus stimulus thing. How much money has Fed already "printed"? Why won't the Canadian government "print" few billions for their high-tech flagship? We're witnesses of a huge crisis so ideas and approaches shouldn't be trivial.
    05-28-20 12:05 PM
  23. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    There is an alternative approach which could help BlackBerry.

    But first I ought to say that I live in a country which has never followed capitalistic principles so I have a totally different mindset, my education was built on different paradigms than people's from the Western World. Perhaps I'm wrong at some points, so don't treat this idea seriously, consider it like a fiction story.

    What is the fundamental problem I see? Lack of apps and outdated hardware. The OS itself is great, build quality is awesome, design and variety fit everyone's needs.
    How could the problem be fixed if BlackBerry was found in my country? The government would step up and offered its help to save the company. Here what it means in practice:
    1. The government would become a loan guarantor.
    2. It could order thousands/millions of devices (phones/tablets) for public sector, schools, police, etc.
    3. Start a campaign in mass media and on the market, smth. like "Buy Canadian phones". Everyone from the government starting from the PM would claim "I use a Blackberry phone", "Let's have chat in BBM", etc. Everyone must be really proud of using such a great device.
    4. Make a list of "socially important" services: Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, etc. Force the owners of those services to provide an app for Blackberry OS. Otherwise they would be blocked in the country.
    5. It's not easy to get a Snapdragon 865 CPU and put it into an old phone to upgrade it. OS Drivers are the main issue. It can be solved by manufacturers as well. The government just need to force them to develop the drivers. Otherwise, forbid sales of devices with those CPUs or increase tariffs.

    So with the help of the government the company could increase demand, increase and improve supply on the local market. Boom, the strong foundation is built and the company can expand to the world's market.
    Why should the government help to a private company? The answer could be that the higher is the income the more taxes you get. But in the worst case the government could nationalize the company.

    Why could it work? Canadian market is large and wealthy enough not to let "Big Players" to ignore the threat.
    Why it won't turn into reality?
    1. This approach breaks the nature of capitalism, private property, liberty, etc.
    2. It violates the rules of WTO and probably dozens of other organizations which Canada is a member of. Anyone cares?

    On the other hand, never say never, the history knows a lot of examples like Roosevelt's statism during the Great Depression, Trump's attempt to bring the companies back to the US, this coronavirus stimulus thing. How much money has Fed already "printed"? Why won't the Canadian government "print" few billions for their high-tech flagship? We're witnesses of a huge crisis so ideas and approaches shouldn't be trivial.
    The biggest reason is simple, the system of development won’t support a third system just like with traditional OS Apple/Microsoft only has two supported as for profit...

    It wasn’t ever about the money as Microsoft has plenty and yet couldn’t achieve success with it’s mobile OS and $USD billions to spend.
    05-28-20 12:51 PM
  24. conite's Avatar
    There is an alternative approach which could help BlackBerry.

    But first I ought to say that I live in a country which has never followed capitalistic principles so I have a totally different mindset, my education was built on different paradigms than people's from the Western World. Perhaps I'm wrong at some points, so don't treat this idea seriously, consider it like a fiction story.

    What is the fundamental problem I see? Lack of apps and outdated hardware. The OS itself is great, build quality is awesome, design and variety fit everyone's needs.
    How could the problem be fixed if BlackBerry was found in my country? The government would step up and offered its help to save the company. Here what it means in practice:
    1. The government would become a loan guarantor.
    2. It could order thousands/millions of devices (phones/tablets) for public sector, schools, police, etc.
    3. Start a campaign in mass media and on the market, smth. like "Buy Canadian phones". Everyone from the government starting from the PM would claim "I use a Blackberry phone", "Let's have chat in BBM", etc. Everyone must be really proud of using such a great device.
    4. Make a list of "socially important" services: Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, etc. Force the owners of those services to provide an app for Blackberry OS. Otherwise they would be blocked in the country.
    5. It's not easy to get a Snapdragon 865 CPU and put it into an old phone to upgrade it. OS Drivers are the main issue. It can be solved by manufacturers as well. The government just need to force them to develop the drivers. Otherwise, forbid sales of devices with those CPUs or increase tariffs.

    So with the help of the government the company could increase demand, increase and improve supply on the local market. Boom, the strong foundation is built and the company can expand to the world's market.
    Why should the government help to a private company? The answer could be that the higher is the income the more taxes you get. But in the worst case the government could nationalize the company.

    Why could it work? Canadian market is large and wealthy enough not to let "Big Players" to ignore the threat.
    Why it won't turn into reality?
    1. This approach breaks the nature of capitalism, private property, liberty, etc.
    2. It violates the rules of WTO and probably dozens of other organizations which Canada is a member of. Anyone cares?

    On the other hand, never say never, the history knows a lot of examples like Roosevelt's statism during the Great Depression, Trump's attempt to bring the companies back to the US, this coronavirus stimulus thing. How much money has Fed already "printed"? Why won't the Canadian government "print" few billions for their high-tech flagship? We're witnesses of a huge crisis so ideas and approaches shouldn't be trivial.
    BlackBerry does not want to have its handset division "saved". It has more profitable avenues to direct its resources.

    There is nothing BB10, or BlackBerry Android can offer that others can't, so why waste taxpayer dollars on a pet project?
    05-28-20 12:57 PM
  25. bb10adopter111's Avatar
    Let's just don't.

    I could go on for days (and have done in these forums!) about why BB10 was superior in meaningful ways to iOS and Android.

    In fact t, I've just spend two weeks running my Z10, KEYone, and new iPhone SE in parallel for over sixty hours of testing and configuration, and I am still convinced that BB10 is superior for its core functions.

    But it doesn't matter. People want what they want, and it does no good to explain to them what they are missing EVEN IF it would increase their effectiveness, which obviously isn't the case for everyone.

    Back in the late 1990s, WordPerfect was still a much better word processor than MS Word for professional writers and touch typists who produced text on the keyboard most of the day. It offered a speed and level of precision that MS Word could not approach (and still can't, IMO!) However, WordPerfect had a steeper learning curve, and an inferior set of complimentary applications in the WordPerfect Suite, and over time it lost out to MS Office because very few users of PCs were typing power users.

    Marketers know that the product is only one of five elements that determines success in the marketplace. Pricing, distribution partners, promotions, and the feel and qualities of the customer experience are also critical components in the "marketing mix."

    In its heyday, BlackBerry nailed all five of the marketing mix components, but by 2015, it had no remaining strengths in the mix for most shoppers. That's not going to change in the foreseeable future.

    Z10 = BB10 + VKB > iOS + Android
    05-28-20 01:12 PM
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