1. cgk's Avatar
    That's all very spot on. What your missing is how Chen is duping all the excited suckers with an Android device to stem the hardware revenue bleed as best as he can. Of course I could be wrong and he could have a deal with specific companies and sell millions out the gate (because of deals made). I doubt it. Only thing the Android device will do for BlackBerry will be to provide a show case for any of there Android securing software. That way, they can just license it out to Samsung, LG, HTC, Sony...etc and exit hardware with software licenses deals in hand. BlackBerry hardware is going the way of the dodo
    that is a smart idea - and fits with Chen's behaviour...
    undone and Dunt Dunt Dunt like this.
    10-03-15 02:14 AM
  2. RyanGermann's Avatar
    So ~20 million for RnD and ? for production.

    That's my number.
    Please explain what you mean by "platform atrophy".
    Apps that are available are not updated or withdrawn from app world altogether.

    Those that might consider a BB10 device rule it out.

    $20 million is high but manageable in the context of making the OS update available with a surcharge on the device.

    BlackBerry doesn't have to let this happen, if enough BB10 enthusiasts are willing to contribute to its ongoing maintenance so it continues to be ported to the future Android devices BlackBerry releases. BlackBerry needs the courage and will to try what would have to be considered a corporate experiment... I say they don't have much to lose at this point.

    BlackBerry would have to be convinced it could work, and that starts with NOT believing it COULDN'T work. IMO too many CB members have decided it couldn't work without DETERMINING it couldn't work.

    Nothing put forth by naysayers has convinced me that couldn't work, but the attitude "it could work" has to come from a significant number of Bb10 enthusiasts... enough to effectively lobby BlackBerry to consider this, and a crowdfunding project is the most direct way to determine feasibility.
    Last edited by RyanGermann; 10-03-15 at 12:32 PM.
    10-03-15 12:17 PM
  3. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    Apps that are available are not updated or withdrawn from app world altogether.

    Those that might consider a BB10 device rule it out.

    $20 million is high but manageable in the context of making the OS update available with a surcharge on the device.

    Posted via CB10
    If that is your definition of platform atrophy then a small crowd funded production run of BB10 sliders will only partially mitigate it.
    Its only 500,000 devices.
    Do you think that these new devices will be able to have the android runtime?
    All I'm going to say about that.
    But If you wan't a BB10 Priv I think crowd sourcing is worth a try.
    10-03-15 12:26 PM
  4. RyanGermann's Avatar
    If that is your definition of platform atrophy then a small crowd funded production run of BB10 sliders will only partially mitigate it.
    Its only 500,000 devices.
    Do you think that these new devices will be able to have the android runtime?
    All I'm going to say about that.
    But If you wan't a BB10 Priv I think crowd sourcing is worth a try.
    It doesn't have to be a 'production run of devices' either. Just an autoloader that will install BB10 on the Slider hardware. There are other posts in this thread that propose cost-effective ways that this could be delivered that wouldn't cost BlackBerry anything additional in terms of inventory control etc.

    Crowdfunding this would be the best we could hope for, I believe: I wouldn't expect BlackBerry to make even what I think of as the "modest" investment without first determining that there would be sufficient interest... and in terms of determining interest, "put your money where your mouth is" i.e crowdfunding seems like the most direct and clear way for BlackBerry to do that.

    So, they need to spend a BIT of money putting together the figures for what BB10 porting would actually cost (an investment they owe loyal BB10 customers... let's go ahead and call that probably 100 person hours of effort) and then launch the Crowd Funding campaign (and of course pretty much all the tech press would pick it up, and even if they ridicule it, BB10 users have a thick enough skin to ignore the criticism and be excited to participate).

    So, there you have it. $20 million is hardly an impairment to getting BB10 onto the Slider hardware, if BlackBerry is willing to ALLOW it, to CONSIDER it should the funds be raised.

    They'd have to actually state that they would do it if the crowdfunding goal was reached, so, aside from me emailing and Tweeting BlackBerry and JohnChen, what else might be done to get BlackBerry to actually do this?

    Bueller? Bla1ze? Bueller? Bla1ze?
    10-03-15 12:58 PM
  5. app_Developer's Avatar
    I'd bet a crowdfunding campaign wouldn't raise more than $200k. Seriously. People will quickly learn to accept that BB10 is winding down.


    Sent from my iPhone 6S using Tapatalk
    JeepBB, kbz1960 and TGR1 like this.
    10-03-15 01:03 PM
  6. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    It doesn't have to be a 'production run of devices' either. Just an autoloader that will install BB10 on the Slider hardware. There are other posts in this thread that propose cost-effective ways that this could be delivered that wouldn't cost BlackBerry anything additional in terms of inventory control etc.
    Sounds good to me.

    So, they need to spend a BIT of money putting together the figures for what BB10 porting would actually cost (an investment they owe loyal BB10 customers... let's go ahead and call that probably 100 person hours of effort) and then launch the Crowd Funding campaign (and of course pretty much all the tech press would pick it up, and even if they ridicule it, BB10 users have a thick enough skin to ignore the criticism and be excited to participate).
    Approaching BlackBerry with the attitude that they owe loyal BB10 customers something would probably not be the best strategy.

    So, there you have it. $20 million is hardly an impairment to getting BB10 onto the Slider hardware, if BlackBerry is willing to ALLOW it, to CONSIDER it should the funds be raised.

    They'd have to actually state that they would do it if the crowdfunding goal was reached, so, aside from me emailing and Tweeting BlackBerry and JohnChen, what else might be done to get BlackBerry to actually do this?

    Bueller? Bla1ze? Bueller? Bla1ze?
    One concern that I have is how this will impact any deal(s) that BlackBerry has with Google.
    Make this a win for BlackBerry and maybe for Google as well.
    Help them be seen as the benevolent company(s) that went above and beyond to help.
    Find a way to give them something they can't give themselves.
    10-03-15 01:20 PM
  7. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    I'd bet a crowdfunding campaign wouldn't raise more than $200k. Seriously. People will quickly learn to accept that BB10 is winding down.


    Sent from my iPhone 6S using Tapatalk
    $20 million is a lot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...nding_projects
    But you don't know till you try.
    I for one have faith in Ryan Germann's abilities and commitment to this monumental task.
    Good luck Ryan!
    No you can't have any of my money.
    10-03-15 01:30 PM
  8. RyanGermann's Avatar
    $20 million is a lot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...nding_projects
    But you don't know till you try.
    I for one have faith in Ryan Germann's abilities and commitment to this monumental task.
    Good luck Ryan!
    I am pretty sure that in order for a crowdfunding campaign of this nature to even be undertaken at all BlackBerry must be willing to commit to do it. Now, what would make BlackBerry willing to underwrite a crowdfunding campaign?

    No you can't have any of my money.
    The only people who would be expected to contribute are those that greatly prefer BB10 over the alternatives.
    10-03-15 01:53 PM
  9. kbz1960's Avatar
    It doesn't have to be a 'production run of devices' either. Just an autoloader that will install BB10 on the Slider hardware. There are other posts in this thread that propose cost-effective ways that this could be delivered that wouldn't cost BlackBerry anything additional in terms of inventory control etc.

    Crowdfunding this would be the best we could hope for, I believe: I wouldn't expect BlackBerry to make even what I think of as the "modest" investment without first determining that there would be sufficient interest... and in terms of determining interest, "put your money where your mouth is" i.e crowdfunding seems like the most direct and clear way for BlackBerry to do that.

    So, they need to spend a BIT of money putting together the figures for what BB10 porting would actually cost (an investment they owe loyal BB10 customers... let's go ahead and call that probably 100 person hours of effort) and then launch the Crowd Funding campaign (and of course pretty much all the tech press would pick it up, and even if they ridicule it, BB10 users have a thick enough skin to ignore the criticism and be excited to participate).

    So, there you have it. $20 million is hardly an impairment to getting BB10 onto the Slider hardware, if BlackBerry is willing to ALLOW it, to CONSIDER it should the funds be raised.

    They'd have to actually state that they would do it if the crowdfunding goal was reached, so, aside from me emailing and Tweeting BlackBerry and JohnChen, what else might be done to get BlackBerry to actually do this?

    Bueller? Bla1ze? Bueller? Bla1ze?
    So how much is that for each of the 1,000 fans that will jump on the wagon?
    10-03-15 03:37 PM
  10. RyanGermann's Avatar
    they would have to have have spent a lot to have all the other drivers created for a BB10 Priv. BB would probably have to guarantee to buy a very large number of 808 chips. The cost would be so high the BB would not make money on the priv (Android or BB10).
    So did BlackBerry do the Passport drivers expecting to sell devices in the millions? They couldn't have expected sales of more than a million. Granted the Passport was funded with "bad money", and BB isn't just going to fund driver development as a matter of course, and the Passport only came to market at all because it was mostly done. Since you seem to have experience in this area, can you provide plausible numbers for what might that expense be, given a possible sale of 500,000 devices over a calendar year?
    10-03-15 09:14 PM
  11. anon(679606)'s Avatar
    Contempt enough to wish for Carleton S. Fiorina to succeed JC asap !!

    Posted via CB10
    10-04-15 03:11 PM
  12. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    Contempt enough to wish for Carleton S. Fiorina to succeed JC asap !!

    Posted via CB10
    That's a lot of contempt!
    10-04-15 03:24 PM
  13. anon(679606)'s Avatar
    That's a lot of contempt!
    Oh yes. Her appearance aside & ignoring her acute need for a new hairdresser & makeup artist, her distasteful demeanor does not compliment what seems to be a smart girl with an abrasive affect that still would be way better than that supercilious JC...
    10-04-15 03:53 PM
  14. Prem WatsApp's Avatar
    I'd bet a crowdfunding campaign wouldn't raise more than $200k. Seriously. People will quickly learn to accept that BB10 is winding down.


    Sent from my iPhone 6S using Tapatalk
    Ubuntu Edge got how many $$$ ...?


    How much contempt for BB management is "fair" at this point?-img_20151007_110024.png


    .

    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubuntu-edge#/

    �   Ahoy, Privateers...! :-)   �
    10-06-15 08:00 PM
  15. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    Ubuntu Edge got how many $$$ ...?


    Click image for larger version. 

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    .

    https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubuntu-edge#/

    �   Ahoy, Privateers...! :-)   �
    That's nearly $500.00 per person for a phone that was not spectacular iirc. That doesn't sound impossible.
    10-06-15 08:20 PM
  16. BB Adict's Avatar
    Chen asserts that the cost for driver development to make BB10 run on the slider is prohibitive.

    Notwithstanding alternative funding approaches that haven't been considered, I have a pretty high level of contempt toward BlackBerry management right now, because these so called "costs" are mysterious and, in my mind, in my best guesstimates (because that's what they are) they aren't high enough to effectively justify throwing your most loyal customers under a bus.

    I've been asserting that if the costs were $20 million or less, and there were at least 500,000 BlackBerry 10 users willing to cover those costs "somehow", this would be doable.

    Then others chime in and list off all the related "costs" associated with porting BB10 to the slider. Never mentioning actual figures I might add... just "all this... stuff... is so expensive."

    I'm not buying it. I'm still in "full on contempt" mode here, and I believe it's justified... because there is no scenario I can imagine that's reasonable that can't be "overcome" with interest and appreciation of the BlackBerry customers that have kept BB alive for 5 years now: the most loyal customers, the greatest advocates, and without overstating it, the "defenders" of the BlackBerry brand. Left like an unwanted baby in a truck-stop lavatory. Nice.

    So, I think it's worth debating these so-called costs and whether or not the collective BlackBerry 10 fan base considers what's going on here to be "reasonable".

    If you want to get into various funding methods too, fine... but what I find most troubling are the assumptions being made about how much these things cost... and those costs being above a certain threshold are presented as "reasonable" for why BlackBerry isn't porting BB10 to the Slider.

    How low do those numbers have to be before those who think it's "reasonable" say "Wait, it's only that much and you can't be bothered supporting us? WTF BlackBerry?!"

    If the cost to port BB10 to the Slider was "$20 dollars and 15 minutes of time", of course they'd just do it... and if they DIDN'T do it, and we KNEW that these were the all-in costs, how would you feel about BlackBerry not porting BB10 to the slider?

    If anyone's going to give BlackBerry management a free pass on this (like so many did for the PlayBook) then do it without making a lot of assumptions about how MUCH pain BlackBerry would incur doing this. It's playing right into their hands to accept hand-wavy "the driver development costs a lot."

    The risk here is that I and others who feel as I do will have to admit "Wow, that's a LOT more than we thought. I mean. WOW. Qualcomm charges THAT MUCH for driver development? Really? The technical support required to support both the Android and BB10 devices in parallel is THAT much more than just for the Android device? The BB10 OS deployment costs per device are THAT high? Wow, I had no idea. Well, BB management's first duty is to ensure that BlackBerry survives as a company, so leaving BB10 behind is necessary." The only problem is that to date, it's not a reasonable conclusion to come to.

    There's a disease within BlackBerry w.r.t. how BlackBerry treats loyal customers, and it's equally disturbing to see how many so-called BB10 fans are willing to just... 'roll over' (a revolting but apt metaphor) for them.
    Get over it dude. It is only a flipping phone. If BlackBerry ceased to exist tomorrow, in spite of what the die hards say, we would all have to find an alternative.

    Blackberry's problem is more in its history than anything the current leadership is doing.

    Posted via CB10
    10-07-15 08:43 AM
  17. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Get over it dude.
    10-07-15 08:46 AM
  18. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    that is a smart idea - and fits with Chen's behaviour...
    Smart for BlackBerry.....

    Not sure how those early adopter will feel about yet another BlackBerry devices that goes into "commitment mode"..
    10-07-15 09:12 AM
  19. BB Adict's Avatar
    I did not check where your video link led, but the reality is here to stay. Again I say, the company's problems are more with its culture and history.

    Posted via CB10
    10-07-15 09:23 AM
  20. RyanGermann's Avatar
    I did not check where your video link led, but the reality is here to stay. Again I say, the company's problems are more with its culture and history.
    but you're completely wrong.
    10-07-15 09:27 AM
  21. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    but you're completely wrong.
    How is he wrong? Use your words.
    10-07-15 09:30 AM
  22. RyanGermann's Avatar
    How is he wrong? Use your words.
    His statement is a gross oversimplification, isn't really on topic at all, and was based on his contemptable and pointless "get over it" nonsense. I responded in kind. Maybe I shouldn't do that. Maybe no one should. The CURRENT problem is the abandonment of BB10 and it has more to do with CURRENT management than any other problems related to whatver led to market share losses (which IN THIS VERY THREAD I attribute to BlackBerry not respecting their loyal users) or app gap or anything else. It's been done to death elsewhere, he can go find it and read it.
    10-07-15 09:55 AM
  23. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    His statement is a gross oversimplification, isn't really on topic at all, and was based on his contemptable and pointless "get over it" nonsense. I responded in kind. Maybe I shouldn't do that. Maybe no one should. The CURRENT problem is the abandonment of BB10 and it has more to do with CURRENT management than any other problems related to whatver led to market share losses (which IN THIS VERY THREAD I attribute to BlackBerry not respecting their loyal users) or app gap or anything else. It's been done to death elsewhere, he can go find it and read it.
    Its really not that contemptible to say "get over it" under the current circumstances.
    BB10 never even come close to making a profit and that is not solely Chen's fault.
    Those loyal users did not buy enough devices to keep BB10 afloat so its not about respect, its just business.
    It saddens me when you respond in a petulant manner, I don't think that's who you really are.
    Last edited by DrBoomBotz; 10-07-15 at 10:46 AM.
    10-07-15 10:22 AM
  24. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Its really not that contemptible to say "get over it" under the current circumstances.
    First of all, "fight fire with fire" is a strategy I subscribe to. I don't start it, but I finish it. You'll find most of my posts are hopeful and positive, but I won't shrink away from calling people out when they're being, well, "like that", above. "Get over it" posts are casually dismissive, condescending, disrespectful, generally insulting of the cognitive abilities and knowledge of the target, and not even what anyone would call a "contribution" to the topic at issue. Yet, some people just HAVE to "contribute" in that manner. Personally, THAT'S what I'd like to see stop. People posting "here's how BlackBerry (ltd. or products) can be better!" only to have others REPEATEDLY, INCESSENTLY, AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY post what amounts to "give up hope, you loser", THAT'S what CrackBerry needs WAY LESS OF. It does no good. None. No one is being "educated" by such statements. No one's point of view changes. It's just beating hope and positivity down and tell me what exactly is the good in that. I'd accept a permaban before I rationalize "get over it" posts as acceptable discussion forum behaviour.

    I do try to contribute positively, and there certainly are people on this site that constantly post very calm, eloquent, negative debbie-downer crap... but done so politely most people don't notice it. When I notice it, I don't just let it slide. Is CrackBerry a better place when anti-BlackBerry negativity is challenged or goes unchallenged? Probably better if the ones challenging it have thousands of dollars of market research and scientific journal articles as references, but who has access to all that... all many have to go on is intuition and experience.

    There is a point to responding to negative posts with negativity. It shows that no, you can't be "negative" and "get away with it". That said, I'm not perfect, and I'm not apologizing for not being Princess Grace. Trust me, trying to be Princess Grace is really hard, and not who I am... lots of people seem to like me well, enough, so I guess I'm OK.

    BB10 never even come close to making a profit and that is not solely Chen's fault.
    Well, this post is not about the PlayBook not getting BB10, nor about the design of BB10 being targeted at the wrong user base, nor about the PlayBook being summarily killed without any additional effort, nor about any of the other myriad of things that can be called strategic errors or incompetence by BlackBerry management over the years.

    This is about current BlackBerry management REPEATING that same kind of mistake, only instead of the PlayBook or BBOS or whatever else, it's their flagship OS. It's about BlackBerry management being casually dismissive of their most loyal users and it's contemptible, but, well, it's all in the posts above this one, no need to repeat it.

    Those loyal users did not buy enough devices to keep BB10 afloat so its not about respect, its just business.
    No, it's not. It's bad business. It's a shareholder (me) seeing mismanagement of the kind that drives customers AWAY from a company being repeated again. Businesses who treat their best customers well, and innovate to bring in new customers are the ones that succeed. BlackBerry is yet again treating its best customers like crap and making decisions that will possibly bring in new TOTALLY DISLOYAL customers who don't care from one minute to the next if BlackBerry goes out of business or not. That's not good management, but it's exactly what BlackBerry is doing. I guess I'm not as good a writer as I think if people aren't getting that what BlackBerry is doing with BB10 (and did in the past) is going to FURTHER HARM THEIR BUSINESS... and nobody gives a darn.

    It saddens me when you respond in a petulant manner, I don't think that's who you really are.
    Again, I'm not perfect, but do draw inspiration from comedians, like George Carlin, Lewis Black, Dennis Leary, Sarah Silverman... not in their league, by any means, but sometimes you have to be abrasive to make your point.
    Last edited by RyanGermann; 10-07-15 at 11:32 AM.
    10-07-15 11:13 AM
  25. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    I do try to contribute positively, and there certainly are people on this site that constantly post very calm, eloquent, negative debbie-downer crap... but done so politely most people don't notice it. When I notice it, I don't just let it slide. Is CrackBerry a better place when anti-BlackBerry negativity is challenged or goes unchallenged? Probably better if the ones challenging it have thousands of dollars of market research and scientific journal articles as references, but who has access to all that... all many have to go on is intuition and experience.

    There is a point to responding to negative posts with negativity. It shows that no, you can't be "negative" and "get away with it".
    So you have basically said that you will tilt at any "negative" windmill whether or not you have reason on your side. That confirms my suspicion that you don't argue in good faith. Good luck with your crusade.
    Last edited by DrBoomBotz; 10-07-15 at 08:06 PM.
    10-07-15 11:33 AM
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