11-03-15 01:45 AM
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  1. RyanGermann's Avatar
    EDIT Nov 2, 2015: Turns out, a lot!

    Inside BlackBerry's last-ditch plan to win you back with Android : C|Net

    Louks as head of the device division hints that he was basically "out to get" BB10 from the time he joined up, and his no-shows at events in support of BB10 devices is suspicious if you're doubtful.

    This actually makes things a lot simpler, for me. Thanks, Ron.

    -----------

    Chen asserts that the cost for driver development to make BB10 run on the slider is prohibitive.

    Notwithstanding alternative funding approaches that haven't been considered, I have a pretty high level of contempt toward BlackBerry management right now, because these so called "costs" are mysterious and, in my mind, in my best guesstimates (because that's what they are) they aren't high enough to effectively justify throwing your most loyal customers under a bus.

    I've been asserting that if the costs were $20 million or less, and there were at least 500,000 BlackBerry 10 users willing to cover those costs "somehow", this would be doable.

    Then others chime in and list off all the related "costs" associated with porting BB10 to the slider. Never mentioning actual figures I might add... just "all this... stuff... is so expensive."

    I'm not buying it. I'm still in "full on contempt" mode here, and I believe it's justified... because there is no scenario I can imagine that's reasonable that can't be "overcome" with interest and appreciation of the BlackBerry customers that have kept BB alive for 5 years now: the most loyal customers, the greatest advocates, and without overstating it, the "defenders" of the BlackBerry brand. Left like an unwanted baby in a truck-stop lavatory. Nice.

    So, I think it's worth debating these so-called costs and whether or not the collective BlackBerry 10 fan base considers what's going on here to be "reasonable".

    If you want to get into various funding methods too, fine... but what I find most troubling are the assumptions being made about how much these things cost... and those costs being above a certain threshold are presented as "reasonable" for why BlackBerry isn't porting BB10 to the Slider.

    How low do those numbers have to be before those who think it's "reasonable" say "Wait, it's only that much and you can't be bothered supporting us? WTF BlackBerry?!"

    If the cost to port BB10 to the Slider was "$20 dollars and 15 minutes of time", of course they'd just do it... and if they DIDN'T do it, and we KNEW that these were the all-in costs, how would you feel about BlackBerry not porting BB10 to the slider?

    If anyone's going to give BlackBerry management a free pass on this (like so many did for the PlayBook) then do it without making a lot of assumptions about how MUCH pain BlackBerry would incur doing this. It's playing right into their hands to accept hand-wavy "the driver development costs a lot."

    The risk here is that I and others who feel as I do will have to admit "Wow, that's a LOT more than we thought. I mean. WOW. Qualcomm charges THAT MUCH for driver development? Really? The technical support required to support both the Android and BB10 devices in parallel is THAT much more than just for the Android device? The BB10 OS deployment costs per device are THAT high? Wow, I had no idea. Well, BB management's first duty is to ensure that BlackBerry survives as a company, so leaving BB10 behind is necessary." The only problem is that to date, it's not a reasonable conclusion to come to.

    There's a disease within BlackBerry w.r.t. how BlackBerry treats loyal customers, and it's equally disturbing to see how many so-called BB10 fans are willing to just... 'roll over' (a revolting but apt metaphor) for them.
    Last edited by RyanGermann; 11-02-15 at 05:39 PM.
    KAM1138, vanrickman and nt300 like this.
    09-28-15 12:32 PM
  2. app_Developer's Avatar
    Does Qualcomm work on drivers for anything other than Linux? They may well have given BB a huge cost estimate because they really don't want to go out and hire the team to do this.


    Sent from my iPhone 6S using Tapatalk
    09-28-15 12:40 PM
  3. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Does Qualcomm work on drivers for anything other than Linux? They may well have given BB a huge cost estimate because they really don't want to go out and hire the team to do this.
    Ok, that's possible... but how much would you suggest that would be? And if it was profitable for Qualcomm why wouldn't they do it? If this is a legitimate reason (Qualcomm's apathy) then they would still have either outright refused (which I find implausible) or they would have given BlackBerry a number that BlackBerry would balk at.

    What is that number?
    09-28-15 12:43 PM
  4. Uzi's Avatar
    I had a similar conversation last night with a former developer who left Blackberry a few months ago. They said the slider was most definitely coming with a Blackberry-fied version of Android and that, in fact, the on stage demo when the slider was first revealed was actually running Android but was skinned to look like BB10.

    They didn't say anything about two versions, but I didn't ask either so i can't confirm or deny that part.

    The other interesting thing they said was that BB10 is essentially dead as phone OS (aside from the obvious lack of apps reason). The reason was that Qualcomm wants too much money to keep developing the BB10 drivers for their chipsets. BB doesn't do it themselves and the number thrown out was way more than BB can afford to spend, and it's too much work for BB to do the driver work on their own at this point.

    Take it for what it's worth but this person seemed to know what they were talking about.
    This was before chen said it
    09-28-15 12:46 PM
  5. RyanGermann's Avatar
    This was before chen said it
    ...and that number is...?
    09-28-15 12:48 PM
  6. Uzi's Avatar
    ...and that number is...?
    I don't know
    09-28-15 12:53 PM
  7. kbz1960's Avatar
    Get PO'd then get over it. Nuffin you can do about it. Sell yours if you're PO'd enough and show them by getting someone else's android or an iPhone.
    09-28-15 01:03 PM
  8. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Get PO'd then get over it. Nuffin you can do about it. Sell yours if you're PO'd enough and show them by getting someone else's android or an iPhone.
    How helpful.
    sonicpix likes this.
    09-28-15 01:08 PM
  9. kbz1960's Avatar
    You're welcome. Anytime.
    MobileMadness002 likes this.
    09-28-15 01:09 PM
  10. thurask's Avatar
    How helpful.
    Well, if you truly do feel that BlackBerry management is the love child of Hitler and Chad Kroeger, why stay?
    Why hope that they'll magically change their minds, when you know they won't?
    kbz1960, Mecca EL and LazyEvul like this.
    09-28-15 01:10 PM
  11. igor10000's Avatar
    People just love to panic.

    Posted via CB10
    09-28-15 01:12 PM
  12. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Well, if you truly do feel that BlackBerry management is the love child of Hitler and Chad Kroeger, why stay?
    Why hope that they'll magically change their minds, when you know they won't?
    Did you read the first post? TL;DR? This is about gaining the proper perspective. I like BB10 too much to just "leave", but I'm not giving BB management a pass on their decision to abandon BB10 and not release new BB10 devices like the Slider. Everything that justifies this decision is pure conjecture. I am kind-of confused why so many just accept that. It does play right into the hands of corporations when customers let themselves be treated like that. I thought people in general had more self respect.
    KAM1138 and chopachain like this.
    09-28-15 01:14 PM
  13. kbz1960's Avatar
    Keep venting then. It feels good.
    Mecca EL likes this.
    09-28-15 01:16 PM
  14. RyanGermann's Avatar
    People just love to panic.
    So you believe that new BB10 devices will be released?
    09-28-15 01:17 PM
  15. Bla1ze's Avatar
    How much contempt for BB management is "fair" at this point?
    Whatever YOU feel is fair. If you're upset about their moves then no one can tell you 'hey bro, don't be upset'.. I mean they can you don't have to listen to them lol. If you don't believe their reasoning or think they're making excuses or never even bothered to see how viable a BB10 version even was then nothing says you have to. But they, rather Chen, seemingly chose the path and thus far are sticking to it and sticking to his reasoning for it and there's not much reason to think he'd go back and change any of it no matter what any of us here think or do. He obviously has more access to the finer details than any of us do and made business decisions based on those details.

    Oddly enough, this situation isn't anything really new either. People freaked out when they left BBOS and went into BB10, people adapted. They freaked out when the PlayBook was no longer being supported either, most got over it. And it'll be the same thing this time around as well, people will freak out, choose their path on whether to continue with BlackBerry or go elsewhere. There's some that are upset about BB10, depending on how they view it. It's either 'dead' to them while some are happy to accept it as it is and are satisfied the security updates and maintenance releases will continue.

    So how much contempt is fair, well that comes down to you really and how you view things. Is BB10 dead to you? Are you mad at BlackBerry for it? Will you not be buying a Priv? Will you be switching devices as soon as your current BB10 device is on its last legs? Maybe even before? Are you gonna tweet John Chen every single day until you, hopefully, end up with a BB10 version? You seem rather angry about it right now and like I said, no one can tell you not to be. If you're mad, you're mad.
    Uzi, cgk, kbz1960 and 6 others like this.
    09-28-15 01:50 PM
  16. cgk's Avatar
    Well from a shareholder perspective, we are two years in and Chen has failed to add to shareholder value in any meaningful way - the stock price is currently trading at cash and investments - the company is really no further on from when TH was running the show - no matter how much smoke and mirrors they throw up.
    KAM1138, chr1sny, sonicpix and 1 others like this.
    09-28-15 01:57 PM
  17. sentimentGX4's Avatar
    I'm not sure who knows these ballpark figures or if they'd be under nondisclosure agreements so this thread may be a futile exercise.

    With that said, I agree that the figure may not be too onerous or otherwise how would could OSes such as Firefox OS or Sailfish OS exist? (Well, they are based on Linux... but don't know how close.)

    Not only that, Qualcomm isn't the only chip maker. There's also Intel, MediaTek, Samsung, NVIDIA, Huawei, etc. and some of these companies would be desperate to get their chips into anything and likely willing to subsidize the cost.

    There probably are ulterior motives even if its as simple as BB10 is unprofitable, BBRY wants to change focus, and he wants to throw an excuse at BB10 fans.

    Well from a shareholder perspective, we are two years in and Chen has failed to add to shareholder value in any meaningful way - the stock price is currently trading at cash and investments - the company is really no further on from when TH was running the show - no matter how much smoke and mirrors they throw up.
    Chen gave shareholders over a year window to sell at a more reasonable price. I think he did his job well.
    Last edited by sentimentGX4; 09-28-15 at 02:09 PM.
    09-28-15 01:58 PM
  18. app_Developer's Avatar
    Ok, that's possible... but how much would you suggest that would be? And if it was profitable for Qualcomm why wouldn't they do it? If this is a legitimate reason (Qualcomm's apathy) then they would still have either outright refused (which I find implausible) or they would have given BlackBerry a number that BlackBerry would balk at.

    What is that number?
    My sense is that porting and maintaining QNX long term on new phone chipsets is a $15M to $30M per year problem. Testing/QA is a big deal there. I don't even know if BB is capable of that anymore (do they even have the staff to do this?)

    But that's just the tip of the iceberg. If you commit to that, you have to commit to a fully funded BB10 team overall. I don't think Chen believes in BB10 enough to fund the whole OS group. The drivers are just a convenient bit to point at.


    Sent from my iPhone 6S using Tapatalk
    sentimentGX4 and sonicpix like this.
    09-28-15 02:08 PM
  19. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Whatever YOU feel is fair. If you're upset about their moves then no one can tell you 'hey bro, don't be upset'.. I mean they can you don't have to listen to them lol. If you don't believe their reasoning or think they're making excuses or never even bothered to see how viable a BB10 version even was then nothing says you have to. But they, rather Chen, seemingly chose the path and thus far are sticking to it and sticking to his reasoning for it and there's not much reason to think he'd go back and change any of it no matter what any of us here think or do. He obviously has more access to the finer details than any of us do and made business decisions based on those details.

    Oddly enough, this situation isn't anything really new either. People freaked out when they left BBOS and went into BB10, people adapted. They freaked out when the PlayBook was no longer being supported either, most got over it. And it'll be the same thing this time around as well, people will freak out, choose their path on whether to continue with BlackBerry or go elsewhere. There's some that are upset about BB10, depending on how they view it. It's either 'dead' to them while some are happy to accept it as it is and are satisfied the security updates and maintenance releases will continue.

    So how much contempt is fair, well that comes down to you really and how you view things. Is BB10 dead to you? Are you mad at BlackBerry for it? Will you not be buying a Priv? Will you be switching devices as soon as your current BB10 device is on its last legs? Maybe even before? Are you gonna tweet John Chen every single day until you, hopefully, end up with a BB10 version? You seem rather angry about it right now and like I said, no one can tell you not to be. If you're mad, you're mad.
    So you believe there will be no future BlackBerry 10 devices. I hadn't realized that you came to that conclusion yourself... but you do effectively illustrate that BlackBerry customer's loyalty is misplaced, and has been for years. "Why be loyal to a company at all?" you might ask. "It's just a business venture, beholden to shareholders, so why 'care' about it at all?" you might ask.

    In the case of BlackBerry, why, indeed. If there isn't any interest in actually holding BlackBerry accountable, if there is no way to make this a "serious" enough issue for BlackBerry that they care to act instead of inact, not here on CrackBerry? Even among CrackBerry "management"? Then, well, there you have it.

    Don't assume that hopefulness and brand loyalty is "easy" or something only the deluded are subject to. If you want to remain hopeful about something, you sometimes have to really work against internal cynicism. And lately, it's a lot harder to do, when the most hopeful are ridiculed and subject to completely condescending internet-discussion-forum tropes from other supposed "BlackBerry Fans".

    I was attempting to back hopefulness or hopelessness with reason, with substantive information. Most of the hopeless have nothing to back their hopelessness, other than "this is how it's been in the past, so this is how it will be in the future." Wow, that's the textbook definition of hopelessness if you ask me.

    I was trying to challenge the "hopeless" to prove their hopelessness is justified (aside of course from "BB screws everybody all the time"). because MY reasoning leads me to "hope", but also assumes that BlackBerry might, just MIGHT, act if there is sufficient, ok, call it "outcry", challenging them on their claims of unreasonable, untenable, unrecoverable costs. Maybe BB10 fans COULD get BlackBerry to come around.

    I would say that it would require the "weight" of the CrackBerry management to do it. It's pretty obvious to me there's no interest in this... exercise.
    Last edited by RyanGermann; 09-28-15 at 02:26 PM.
    09-28-15 02:10 PM
  20. Bla1ze's Avatar
    So you believe there will be no future BlackBerry 10 devices. I hadn't heard you state it that plainly.
    I would be genuinely surprised if there is and even if there is... I doubt it would be anything the masses would be interested in. Think another low-cost device like the Leap using existing hardware configurations.
    LazyEvul and sentimentGX4 like this.
    09-28-15 02:14 PM
  21. Mecca EL's Avatar
    Thank goodness profit margins aren't fan based. I keep having visions of CEO's crying at board meetings.
    hamsterwheel likes this.
    09-28-15 02:21 PM
  22. Mirk's Avatar
    As a consumer and a shareholder I'm sitting here thinking they haven't delivered on anything I've wanted in the some 6+ years I've been completely loyal to them. The contempt is real. I would have loved to see BB10 evolve into a full featured OS with a complete ecosystem, but the more I think about it I get the impression it was never meant to be. If I take off the rose coloured glasses I come to see that BB10 was flawed from the get go and still is. I honestly don't believe they have any intent to, or for that matter actually could, "fix" BB10. I'm talking about all those weird quirks it had, and some it still has, that the average consumer has trouble with, like answering the phone. (Yes, I did know at least 3 people who could never answer their phone reliably.) What ever happened up until now, undoubtedly they messed up what could have been a very good thing. Yes, I put all the blame on them, because quite frankly if they built it better, more would have come.

    It has become crystal clear now though, BB10 is dead no matter which way you cut it. They continue with BB10 until sales dwindle and they become the next Palm, or they eclipse BB10 with Android. Either way, BB10 is dead, and either way the only people who will care are the what 0.1% market share that is actually loyal.

    To all of use loyal fans, at times it certainly does seem like BlackBerry is sending out the message "Because you suck. And we hate you." But, the reality is they are a business and they will do what they have to to grow that business. I'm going to feel a lot of contempt when I have to retire my Passport to the same dusty fate as my PlayBook, I'm going to have to accept that it will probably be the last BB10 device, and that contempt may drive me away from owning another BlackBerry device in the future, but they're is nothing I or anyone else here can do about it.
    09-28-15 03:19 PM
  23. KAM1138's Avatar
    Thank goodness profit margins aren't fan based. I keep having visions of CEO's crying at board meetings.
    Oh I think there's plenty to cry about aside from Fan reactions.

    KAM
    09-28-15 04:38 PM
  24. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Oh I think there's plenty to cry about aside from Fan reactions.

    KAM
    And for some reason, all these "economists" think that being good to loyal customers and profits are mutually exclusive concepts... sometimes, if you DON'T treat your customers right, your profits suffer. Well, if the customers are doing it right, that is.

    Come to think of it... the root of all of BlackBerry's problems come from not treating customers right, from the Storm right on down to today. Think about that.
    09-28-15 04:44 PM
  25. KAM1138's Avatar
    To all of use loyal fans, at times it certainly does seem like BlackBerry is sending out the message "Because you suck. And we hate you." But, the reality is they are a business and they will do what they have to to grow that business.
    Well, what we (also a shareholder and customer) is the worst of both worlds--failure on BOTH fronts. I made the mistake of being optimistic about the path to recovery that BlackBerry was selling (customers are shareholders) in mid 2012. I (stupidly as it turns out) trusted that they knew what they were doing, and had the plan and fortitude to follow through on that plan.

    I was completely wrong, and reality is the proof. I can't deny it. I was wrong to trust them, or believe they had the capability and competence to succeed. I've paid for it with my hard-earned money that I stupidly invested in a company that has failed me consistently since that decision.

    What's worse (for me) than the failures Heins' leadership is the PLANNED failure of Chen's. HE might not see it as a failure, but it is insuring that the promise that I signed on for CANNOT occur.

    So, yeah--I'm going to slowly have another OS be starved out from under me, AND I'm sitting on a nice loss as a stockholder. The former is done--I'm screwed along with the dozen (not much of an exaggeration it seems, based on what I see here on CrackBerry) or so other people who apparently care about the BB10 OS. And while it is theoretically possible to recover on the Latter, I have SERIOUS doubts.

    That said, my bitterness is threatening to overwhelm my financial well-being. I'm to the point where I say "Good, go ahead and fail." So, all of you who tolerate and enable this Android Path can burn too. Bitter, Bitter, Bitter. Not that it makes one bit of difference. It's all happening outside of my influence, so all this talk is just virtual therapy.

    KAM
    Batibreaker and dusanvn like this.
    09-28-15 04:47 PM
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