[Mike Marvel]

Hello.

Just like to chip in my thoughts after reading Mr Chen's interview.
He mentioned loyalty, and that's where BB10 is really really weak at.

Device
If last generation(s) BB devices to be upgradable to BB10, the story will be very different. Instantly, the BB10 will have millions more users.
1. It will entice more developers to develop Apps for BB10 because of the bigger potential market.
2. It's a good marketing tool. BBOS users and their friends and family will experience BB10! One of the frequent complaints in this forum is that consumers did not know about BB10.
3. It will capture the budget market. BB can continue to sell their older models with the upgraded O/S. Similar to what Apple is doing.
4. It makes BBOS users feel valued.

App
If BBOS Apps can run on BB10 devices, the number of good quality Apps will increase.
1. Upgraders need not face with the situation of losing their favourite App.
2. It makes BBOS users feel valued.

BIS
BB10 does not support "fully" BIS. It should be provide as an option should the user wants it.
BlackBerry left it to the carriers to support BIS for BB10.
Well, BlackBerry should make that it is highly desirable for carriers for support it.
1. Many potential upgraders really wanted this for various reasons. Search the forum.
2. It makes BBOS users feel valued.

BES
BB10 should be compatible with BES5.
Surely it is easier to convince the decision makers to purchase X number of new phones than to convince them to go through a server upgrade. As of now, if the CEO wants a single Z10, he needs to upgrade the whole system. Does it make sense?

Imagine if iOS, MS Windows or Android ditch backward hardware or app compatibility.
Precisely, they won't! (Windows Phone is another story.)
Instead, they take away some features from the older devices or API to make it compelling for existing users to upgrade.
It just doesn't make sense to throw away your established base.
Which sadly, BB did.

And for all these, I blame the engineers and the management.
Unlike many here, I feel that BB engineers are just not good enough if they cannot achieve even one of the 3 critical backward compatibilities listed (excluding BIS), given the long development period.

[SDM7171]

Isn't that the same problem re-stated four times, ie that BBOS & BB10 are different?

If so - do you believe that the decision NOT to develop BBOS into BB10, but to restart from the ground up, was made easily and without any consideration of just this issue?

[jpvj]

Hi,

I am sorry to say that I am really surprised to read this. It seems that you have no idea why BlackBerry has choosen to do as they did.
I don't want to spend much time explaining, but in short:

BBOS devices would NEVER EVER have the power to run any QNX/BB10 based OS.

Supporting legacy BBOS would require BB10 to support all legacy API's. A lot of the functionality of a BBOS device is tightly integrated into the core OS. As you probably remember BBOS is REALLY, REALLY buggy (battery pull anyone?). BBOS itself would NEVER have made it onto a multicore platform, and it feature set of BBOS was stretched far beoynd the original design and intentions of the OS.

What do you think would have happened if they tried to port all these issues into BB10???

BlackBerry lost (quality) control a some point with BBOS and that's when they decided to start from scratch. IMHO that was REALLY a good idea as it seemed impossible to fix many of the issues in BBOS.

Legacy developers can just develop Java for Android to continue using their Java knowledge.
IMHO BB did a great job trying to make the BB10 platform open to as many developers as possible: C/C++, Cascaded (qt), HTML5, Adobe Air and Android (Java).

They even made guides for converting iOS and Android apps with good advices howto adapt to either specific BB features or missing API's (e.g. Google Maps).

Trust me: This discussion was up and running at least 3 years ago. I attended BlackBerry Alliance Summit in Spain in 2010 and they clearly explained how, what and why...

[Ed YANG]

LEGACY Device
If last few generation BB devices(such as 9800, 9860/50 or 9900) can be upgradable to BB10, the story will be very different. Instantly, the BB10 will have millions more users.
1. It will entice more developers to develop Apps for BB10 because of the bigger potential market.
2. It's a good marketing tool. BBOS users and their friends and family will experience BB10! One of the frequent complaints in this forum is that consumers did not know about BB10.
3. It will capture the budget market. BB can continue to sell their older models with the upgraded O/S. Similar to what Apple is doing.
4. It makes BBOS users feel valued....

Unfortunately... BB folks didn't take a look at how UBUNTU had given legacy devices a new lease of life... as a reference on how to make the new OS better to their own brand devices, those unsold ones still floating in the market.

[jpvj]

Hi,

I am sorry to say that I am really surprised to read this. It seems that you have no idea why BlackBerry has choosen to do as they did.
I don't want to spend much time explaining, but in short:

And that WAS the short version :-)

[Mike Marvel]

And that WAS the short version :-)

I did not know.
Thank you very much for sharing this.

My point still stands though.
If BB10 has better backward compatibility with BBOS,
I feel that the situation will be quite different today.
And since BB10 is almost built from ground-up,
they have plenty of options to address at least one of the 3 (Legacy devices, Apps, BES).

Any of these would have placed them in a better position.
If I were the CEO, I will at least require compatibility with BES5 in BB10.
It will make the decision by BBRY's enterprise customers (key strength of BBRY) to upgrade to BB10 devices much simpler.

[Mike Marvel]

Isn't that the same problem re-stated four times, ie that BBOS & BB10 are different?

If so - do you believe that the decision NOT to develop BBOS into BB10, but to restart from the ground up, was made easily and without any consideration of just this issue?

WinXP was largely built ground up with WinNT core.
Yet it is largely compatible with its predecessor Windows 2000 and Windows ME.
So to answer you. No. My point is not that BB10 should not be restart from ground up.
In fact, I think it should or even MUST be restarted.

But the engineers should make it backward compatible.
And as software engineer, I can tell you it CAN BE done, at some cost of performance, memory requirement, features etc.

Let me ask you. What's transfer from BBOS to BB10 which will entice their user base to upgrade?
I know of one, BBM. But is that enough? Especially now that BBM is cross-platform.

[anon(4044683)]

Most of the BBOS devices are not touch screen phones. BIS is another issue.

[Mike Marvel]

Most of the BBOS devices are not touch screen phones. BIS is another issue.

Like I stated previously, they have plenty of options. E.g.
1. A dual-UI mode like Win8 for legacy devices. Most Win7 devices aren't touch screen either.
2. Support only touch-screen BBOS devices to upgrade to BB10.
3. Remove Touch-Screen features from legacy devices.

Any of these would be better than ditching BBOS.
Just my opinion.

[Carlos PT]

Why doesn�t BB just do something similar too Windows and discount €€€ on legacy devices handed in in exchange for new BB10 ones, it�ll cost a bit initially but then u�d get much more momentum with the BB10 experience and get the snowball rolling ..... LOVING AND ROCKING MY Z10

[JustUgochukwu]

still think they should have kept bis on bb10.i know alot of people that stuck with bbos because of it

[jpvj]

The difference between BES5 and BDS 6.x is basically the missing synchronization engine and rework of all IT policies.
As far as I can tell, BlackBerry made a decission to kill all BBOS devices and BES 5 no later than 3 years from the launch of BB10/BES10. Therefore it makes not sense to spend money and ressources on integration a dying technology.

Everybody is moving towards Echange Active Sync (EAS). This is much, much easier for the handheld makers, as they "just" have to implement the EAS client side protocol. BB on the other hand had to maintain synchronization engines for Exchange, Domino and GroupWise (don't forget a ton of different versions, bugs etc. they had to deal with). This is the reason for stopping the sync part of BES.

IT policies was also a big problem: Around 575 policies - some legacy/deprecated and some partly overlapping. Quite a mess built over many years. Very nice to start from scratch again.

IMHO the biggest mistake, was to create BDS from BES5: It's a huge, heavy monster requireing about 1GB of RAM just to start. The UDS part of BES10 came from the Ubitex acqusition. Very nice UI but a very plain MDM solution. BES 10 was originally called "Mobile Fusion". This year they finally added the Secure Work Space, but it's not elegant.

BIS is absolutely dying. About 5 years ago I spoke to a MS employee about the data usage of EAS compared to BlackBerry and he just looked at me and said: Time will take care of this issue. He was right. BIS is still relevant in some countries with very poor network connectivity (2G/EDGE) but BlackBerry has done the right thing and started the process of closing BIS down.

BB10 was unfortunately launched waaaaay to late. Maybe they had a change if the had it 2 years earlier. BBOS devices are excellent communication devices, but the OS sucks big time. BB kept a lot of customers due to the latency about changes we all have. By sacrificing the "rebuild from the ground up" (no legacy compatibility) they also sacrificed some of the BBOS customers. BB knew that, but expected the devices to sell like hot cakes and by far making it up for the lost users. They were wrong...

They key thing is: BlackBerry knew that their existing handsets and turnover from BIS/BES subscriptions were to end and tried to build a new ecosystem with music, video and apps (just like Apple). The actually compared the company with Apple "We are both nice players with a 100% control over our own technology". Apple just had a headstart of 7 years (?) and deliver a superb hardware and UI design that is appealing to most people. Meanwhile BB kept delivering outdated handsets with a buggy OS and this is how most ex-BB users remembers BB while playing with their iOS/Android device.

Most people are actually impressed with my Z10, but the lack of local apps (there is maybe a handfull non-important apps) is devastating and is killing the remaining interest for the platform.

[jpvj]

Why doesn�t BB just do something similar too Windows and discount €€€ on legacy devices handed in in exchange for new BB10 ones, it�ll cost a bit initially but then u�d get much more momentum with the BB10 experience and get the snowball rolling ..... LOVING AND ROCKING MY Z10

Completele agree: They need to hand out BB10 devices dirt cheap to increase the userbase. At the moment they have maybe 0.1% of the marketshare compared to WP 3.x%
(I know - eveybody is screaming: BB has 3.y% and y>x, but this includes the legacy OS devices). BB10 sales has been a disaster and it won't change anytime soon).

PS: I am not trying to talk bad about BlackBerry. I have been a partner for many years and done Enterprise installations since BES 4.1. I participate in BB Live every year, have all BlackBerry certifications, so i feel sad about the situation. On the other hand, I have the feeling "Finally. You had to learn it the hard way. Never forget to listen to your customers and the market".

[chopachain]

Hello.

Just like to chip in my thoughts after reading Mr Chen's interview.
He mentioned loyalty, and that's where BB10 is really really weak at.

Device
If last generation(s) BB devices to be upgradable to BB10, the story will be very different. Instantly, the BB10 will have millions more users.
1. It will entice more developers to develop Apps for BB10 because of the bigger potential market.
2. It's a good marketing tool. BBOS users and their friends and family will experience BB10! One of the frequent complaints in this forum is that consumers did not know about BB10.
3. It will capture the budget market. BB can continue to sell their older models with the upgraded O/S. Similar to what Apple is doing.
4. It makes BBOS users feel valued.

App
If BBOS Apps can run on BB10 devices, the number of good quality Apps will increase.
1. Upgraders need not face with the situation of losing their favourite App.
2. It makes BBOS users feel valued.

BIS
BB10 does not support "fully" BIS. It should be provide as an option should the user wants it.
BlackBerry left it to the carriers to support BIS for BB10.
Well, BlackBerry should make that it is highly desirable for carriers for support it.
1. Many potential upgraders really wanted this for various reasons. Search the forum.
2. It makes BBOS users feel valued.

BES
BB10 should be compatible with BES5.
Surely it is easier to convince the decision makers to purchase X number of new phones than to convince them to go through a server upgrade. As of now, if the CEO wants a single Z10, he needs to upgrade the whole system. Does it make sense?

Imagine if iOS, MS Windows or Android ditch backward hardware or app compatibility.
Precisely, they won't! (Windows Phone is another story.)
Instead, they take away some features from the older devices or API to make it compelling for existing users to upgrade.
It just doesn't make sense to throw away your established base.
Which sadly, BB did.

And for all these, I blame the engineers and the management.
Unlike many here, I feel that BB engineers are just not good enough if they cannot achieve even one of the 3 critical backward compatibilities listed (excluding BIS), given the long development period.

BB10 has almost been out a year and still the public do not know that BlackBerry devices are running on two different operating systems. So you are not alone in thinking like you do. The blame falls squarely on BB management shoulders. There was and is still no marketing campaign to create brand awareness and brand knowledge. I assume that most people think the BB10 devices are using BB OS7.

[Killjoyhere]

The hardware would have been way too inadequate.


Posted via CB10

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

OP, I have to agree with you. BlackBerry should have made it a requirement that BB10 be at very least compatible with hardware of devices built within the last year. If Android can build KitKat and have it run on 512MB of ram...

BlackBerry had a "platform" and a user base, why start COMPLETELY over?

It basically comes down to they didn't have people capable of making the decisions or the talent to build the devices.

From my STORM days I've come to realize that BlackBerry does not have the engineering or software talent that you would expect them to have. And poor little QNX had no experience in building an OS of this complexity. Just look at how long BB10 has taken and how many delays and the sheer length of the delays.... I bet Apple spends more on toilet paper than BlackBerry does in their whole R&D department.

Their problem wasn't that they didn't react fast enough to the iPhone, it was that they weren't already working on a new more powerful OS YEARS before. JAVA was a great OS for dumbphones and it just made sense to expand it as the BlackBerry developed. But it was already becoming apparent the JAVA was not going to be able to handle the ever expanding capabilities of devices. We all knew the ultimate goal was to have a computer in the palm of your hands.

[Mike Marvel]

Most people are actually impressed with my Z10, but the lack of local apps (there is maybe a handfull non-important apps) is devastating and is killing the remaining interest for the platform.

Thank you for revealing the issues of BES5 and BIS.
And I am not arguing that they should not be replaced.
BES10 should replace BES5, but BB10 should have maintained backward compatibility.
But the pace of replacement should be the choice made by the users and not imposed by BlackBerry.

Both of us agree that App is the number one issue.
But it is not within the direct control of BBRY, but backward compatibility is 100% within their direct control.
I believe that if only BB10 has good (need not be prefect) backward compatibility, there will be much positive impact on the App situation. Don't you think so?

Do you think that current BB10 devices are unable to support BES5 because of hardware or software?
I don't believe it's hardware since older devices are able to support BES5 with no problem.
If it's software, what's inherently extremely difficult to support BES5 in the modern and well-designed BB10?

Without knowing much of the internals of BB10, I can think of a few options.
1. Support it fully integrated and natively.
2. Support it as virtualization (think Andriod run-time)
3. Support it as a privileged app.
Instead, BBRY do nothing and force corporate users which want to upgrade to BB10 devices to make the difficult choice between upgrading to BES10 or ditching BBRY completely. And we know that not all of them make the "right" choice.
How many important customers did they lose? How much goodwill did they lose?
In business, as in life, goodwill is many times more important than actual immediate benefits.

With the current situation, BlackBerry forces those BBOS users who are looking into upgrading BB10 into a corner.
They have the choice of 3 or 4 mobile O/S and have no inherent incentive of choosing BB10 although they are upgraders.
They are almost restarting COMPLETELY even if they choose BB10 devices.
That is VERY BAD.

In business, as in war, one should attack from the position of strength.
And BBRY gave up their position of strength too eagerly.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

I agree if BES10 had been a simple free upgrade to BES a year ago, and then adding BB10 device just as simple as adding another BBOS device. It would have been a simple choice for enterprise to adopt BB10. No real thinking require... just another new BlackBerry with more features.

This requirement for new hardware and operating two installations required additional money and approval. Which meant others got involved in making the decision and started asking questions that lead to "let's wait and see", which has now lead to "what is the alternatives", which has now is "let go with option X, it works better with iPhones and Androids".

[Meaty123]

Maybe they could a good incentive for the legacy users to switch to BB10. Something like trade your legacy device to bb10 for reasonably cheap. In that way, BB10 users will increase and maybe developers will be encouraged to build the apps. I mean, they have tons of unsold bb10 device just collecting dust.

Posted via CB10

[CrackberryQ]

I believe both points of view are correct but for now, it's just too late, a smoother Bbos 7 to bb10 would've been helpfull to port many bb7 to bb10 users, also a bb10 lite or even a bb10 interface would've helped drastically!

Posted via CB10