1. SAVVYSCLUTTER's Avatar
    I think BlackBerry's Android phones failed because they didn't appeal to most BB or Android users. There's a large market for retro products - Nokia sells more feature phones than Androids and the new 3310 was 2017's third best-selling phone.

    BB should licence HMD Global or another company to build 'retro' versions of its old phones with 5G and an updated version of BBOS.
    Last edited by SAVVYSCLUTTER; 06-04-23 at 05:49 AM.
    i_plod_an_dr_void likes this.
    01-12-23 01:17 AM
  2. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    I believe BB's Android phones failed because they were too different to its old models.

    There is a large market for retro products and Nokia sells more feature phones than Androids. The new Nokia 3310 was the third best-selling phone of 2017.

    I think BB should licence its name to HMD or another company to produce updated versions of its old phones.

    These would resemble the originals, support 5G, run an updated version of BBOS and be marketed as retro feature phones.

    Example name: Bold 9900 (2023)
    Exactly what OS would these phones run and who is the demographic that would buy these phones in 2023 and into the future?
    01-12-23 04:38 AM
  3. joeldf's Avatar

    There is a large market for retro products and Nokia sells more feature phones than Androids. The new Nokia 3310 was the third best-selling phone of 2017.
    2017?

    That was 5, going on 6 years ago, and pre-pandemic.

    By what metric was it the 3rd best selling? Worldwide?

    I'd like to see the source for that.

    Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
    Last edited by joeldf; 01-12-23 at 07:30 AM.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    01-12-23 07:18 AM
  4. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    I believe BB's Android phones failed because they were too different to its old models.

    There is a large market for retro products and Nokia sells more feature phones than Androids. The new Nokia 3310 was the third best-selling phone of 2017.

    I think BB should licence its name to HMD or another company to produce updated versions of its old phones.

    These would resemble the originals, support 5G, run an updated version of BBOS and be marketed as retro feature phones.

    Example name: Bold 9900 (2023)
    BlackBerry's business failed because those old phones were not what the "market" wanted.

    Now I am puzzled as to how a PKB dumb phone doesn't exist at this point. There is still a small market for dumb phones, and Nokia or TCL could offer up a KaiOS powered retro phone. TCL owns the Palm brand and Nokia has a long history with PKB phones.... either could do it without paying any costly BlackBerry taxes/fees.

    Would have to be KaiOS or basic ASOP, as the work to move BBOS on to today's hardware would be too costly for this small of a market. And for sure carrier's don't want BIS back... Never mind issue with hardware drivers - there is a reason most these dumb phones today are running on a basic version of ASOP. Anyway BBOS and BB10 are dead, let them rest in peace as there is no reason for them to be dug up.
    Laura Knotek and Monkey69 like this.
    01-12-23 07:25 AM
  5. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    2017?

    That was 5, going on 6 years ago, and pre-pandemic.

    By what metric waa it the 3rd best selling? Worldwide?

    I'd like to see the source for that.

    Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
    One mobile expert from Uswitch.com said it... but he was talking about the Nokia 3310 released back in 2000, not the revival phone released in 2017.

    Nobody really tracks dumbphone sales at this point. That said the main offerings I see at my local carrier are TCL, Kyocera, Orbic, Sonim and Nokia. None of these Companies seem to be making much money on these. I don't think it's a business anyone wants to be in at this point.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    01-12-23 07:41 AM
  6. joeldf's Avatar
    AT&T still has several dumb phones they sell. An Alcatel flip running KaiOS, a couple of Kyocera flips, and a couple of Sonim candybar devices.

    Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
    01-12-23 08:58 AM
  7. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    AT&T still has several dumb phones they sell. An Alcatel flip running KaiOS, a couple of Kyocera flips, and a couple of Sonim candybar devices.

    Sent from my SM-G781U using Tapatalk
    Verizon has twelve dumb phone.... all flip style. But what is the point of twelve flip options? Now some are $250 phones and some are $79 phones... but you could hit price points with four of them. It would seem that "something" tells Verizon that in the dumb phone market... flip phones is all they need to offer at this point.

    Me, I think back to my dumb phone days and those horizontal sliders with a full keyboard was all that rage.... where are they today? Think a "blackberry style" PKB would be a texting monster...

    But bottom line is who is buying these phones today... and what do they really want? Do they even do any texting?
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    01-12-23 09:28 AM
  8. SAVVYSCLUTTER's Avatar
    Exactly what OS would these phones run and who is the demographic that would buy these phones in 2023 and into the future?
    They would run a redesigned version of OS 7.1 with modern features and no BIS requirement. Not running Android would make them unique, private and easy to use.

    The demographic would be BB fans and feature phone buyers.
    01-12-23 10:44 AM
  9. conite's Avatar
    They would run a redesigned version of OS 7.1 with modern features and no BIS requirement. Not running Android would make them unique, private and easy to use.

    The demographic would be BB fans and feature phone buyers.
    You would have to rebuild BBOS from the ground up to support modern hardware, component drivers, and communication protocols. You'd also have to completely redevelop all of the apps from scratch.

    There wouldn't be anything to carry over from the old.

    Might as well start with a current, supported, secure OS - backed by an active developer community and an existing app ecosystem.
    Ph1llip and Laura Knotek like this.
    01-12-23 11:02 AM
  10. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    They would run a redesigned version of OS 7.1 with modern features and no BIS requirement. Not running Android would make them unique, private and easy to use.

    The demographic would be BB fans and feature phone buyers.
    Reason most modern dumb phones with LTE or one day 5G will use Android (or something Linux based) ... is drivers and software needed to operate with today's technology. Sorry BBOS wouldn't work in today's world and there is no longer a BBOS development team. Beside BlackBerry doesn't have these people anymore, nor do they have the money.

    You want something private and somewhat unique (still Android at heart).... look into https://crackberry.com/could-aphyos-...e-been-waiting. At very least you should help you see the cost involved in doing a ASOP custom ROM. BB10 shows you what going on your own with a different kernel gets you...

    But easy to use... and not Android, that leaves an iPhone which I think you are against as well.
    01-12-23 11:03 AM
  11. app_Developer's Avatar
    They would run a redesigned version of OS 7.1 with modern features and no BIS requirement. Not running Android would make them unique, private and easy to use.

    The demographic would be BB fans and feature phone buyers.
    This would do hardly anything for privacy for the target audience. If they connect to the internet and use websites and apps they will have the same exposure (and will still need the same protections and practices that everyone else needs such as ghost account hygiene, VPN, etc). The OS itself is not a privacy issue for most people. It's the services, websites, and apps.

    You could just make a phone that doesn't connect to internet and is just a normal dumb phone. Even that has privacy issues if it connects to any phone network anywhere in the world. But if you want a dumbphone, you can build that more cost effectively on KaiOS, as others have decided.
    01-12-23 11:17 AM
  12. SAVVYSCLUTTER's Avatar
    You would have to rebuild BBOS from the ground up to support modern hardware, component drivers, and communication protocols. You'd also have to completely redevelop all of the apps from scratch.

    There wouldn't be anything to carry over from the old.

    Might as well start with a current, supported, secure OS - backed by an active developer community and an existing app ecosystem.
    Some of Nokia's new feature phones run Symbian, which has been 'dead' as long as BBOS.
    01-12-23 11:52 AM
  13. app_Developer's Avatar
    Some of Nokia's new feature phones run Symbian, which has been 'dead' as long as BBOS.
    Which phones are those? The newer Nokia features phones I've seen lately run KaiOS
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    01-12-23 11:56 AM
  14. SAVVYSCLUTTER's Avatar
    Which phones are those? The newer Nokia features phones I've seen lately run KaiOS
    https://gsmarena.com/results.php3?sM...es=1&sOSes=1,5
    01-12-23 12:04 PM
  15. conite's Avatar
    Nothing since 2012 ran Symbian.

    You clicked on "feature phones" AND "Symbian". Click only on "Symbian".

    This is an OR argument, not an AND argument.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    01-12-23 12:23 PM
  16. SAVVYSCLUTTER's Avatar
    Nothing since 2012 ran Symbian.

    You clicked on "feature phones" AND "Symbian". Click only on "Symbian".

    This is an OR argument, not an AND argument.
    Nokia's 'Feature OS', which these run, is based on Symbian S30+ but not marketed as Symbian.
    01-12-23 12:31 PM
  17. conite's Avatar
    Nokia's 'Feature OS', which these run, is based on Symbian S30+ but not marketed as Symbian.
    Even if that were the case, this 'OS' is only capable of making phone calls. You were wanting features similar to BBOS, were you not?
    01-12-23 12:47 PM
  18. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Nokia's 'Feature OS', which these run, is based on Symbian S30+ but not marketed as Symbian.
    These are all GSM phones that have no LTE or 5G capabilities.... these are device meant for less developed markets where GSM is still in use, and will be for years to come. The move to LTE and above required a whole different set of capabilities from devices... it's one reason that KaiOS got so much support from different groups. Dumbphone vendors needed an option beyond building it themselves (none of them could afford to do it) in order to move into LTE.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    01-12-23 01:16 PM
  19. SAVVYSCLUTTER's Avatar
    Even if that were the case, this 'OS' is only capable of making phone calls. You were wanting features similar to BBOS, were you not?
    I didn't suggest BB should use Nokia's OS, even though it does more than make calls.

    I said that, if Symbian can run on new hardware, BBOS may be able to.
    01-12-23 02:22 PM
  20. SAVVYSCLUTTER's Avatar
    These are all GSM phones that have no LTE or 5G capabilities
    Most of them are 4G LTE phones.
    01-12-23 02:25 PM
  21. app_Developer's Avatar
    Nokia's 'Feature OS', which these run, is based on Symbian S30+ but not marketed as Symbian.

    I don't think that S30+ is that closely related to Symbian. It's a relatively new OS, I think only 10 years ago. It is very different from S30. S30+ came out for the first time after BBOS had already ended development.

    Regardless, HMD seems to transitioning to KaiOS with their latest new models.

    If anyone hasn't looked at KaiOS, it's very nicely put together and they have a good business model and they are addressing a really important market. There is a lot of enthusiasm in the KaiOS developer community, and I think it's for good reason.

    And KaiOS is run by a company with actual employees today and development partners and developers who are active today in 2023. Likewise, HMD is a real company with engineering and support staff maintaining their stuff today in 2023.

    BB does not have any actual engineers or support stuff in 2023 working on BBOS, BB10, or anything having to do with handsets, handset operating systems, or handset engineering or handset production.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    01-12-23 02:47 PM
  22. conite's Avatar
    I didn't suggest BB should use Nokia's OS, even though it does more than make calls.

    I said that, if Symbian can run on new hardware, BBOS may be able to.


    I don't think that S30+ is that closely related to Symbian. It's a relatively new OS, I think only 10 years ago. It is very different from S30. S30+ came out for the first time after BBOS had already ended development.

    Regardless, HMD seems to transitioning to KaiOS with their latest new models.

    If anyone hasn't looked at KaiOS, it's very nicely put together and they have a good business model and they are addressing a really important market. There is a lot of enthusiasm in the KaiOS developer community, and I think it's for good reason.

    And KaiOS is run by a company with actual employees today and development partners and developers who are active today in 2023. Likewise, HMD is a real company with engineering and support staff maintaining their stuff today in 2023.

    BB does not have any actual engineers or support stuff in 2023 working on BBOS, BB10, or anything having to do with handsets, handset operating systems, or handset engineering or handset production.
    Yes. Best money would be spent on just putting a full qwerty keyboard on a Nokia feature+ phone running KaiOS.

    But I'm sure that business model has already been thoroughly rejected.
    01-12-23 03:32 PM
  23. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Yes. Best money would be spent on just putting a full qwerty keyboard on a Nokia feature+ phone running KaiOS.

    But I'm sure that business model has already been thoroughly rejected.
    Not totally... KaiOS announced they were powering the GHIA GQWERTY that is available in Mexico just last year. I looked into it and it's made by some Chinese electronics spec company that actually had a number of PKB phones available for order that had PKBs. Just need to find 25K friends to order a minimum batch... surly Kevin can get the CrackBerry community together.
    app_Developer likes this.
    01-12-23 03:59 PM
  24. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    They would run a redesigned version of OS 7.1 with modern features and no BIS requirement. Not running Android would make them unique, private and easy to use.

    The demographic would be BB fans and feature phone buyers.
    Just Paypal, Venmo or Zelle me $5 Billion USD as down payment and we'll get started promptly.
    01-12-23 05:01 PM
  25. spARTacus's Avatar
    Not totally... KaiOS announced they were powering the GHIA GQWERTY that is available in Mexico just last year. I looked into it and it's made by some Chinese electronics spec company that actually had a number of PKB phones available for order that had PKBs. Just need to find 25K friends to order a minimum batch... surly Kevin can get the CrackBerry community together.
    ...well there is also a PKB attachment approach option, which technically isn't overly complicated (relatively), that hasn't been picked up by anyone. So, I'd agree with @conite that an attractive business case for many many PKBs doesn't seem to exist.
    01-13-23 07:16 AM
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