[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

...well there is also a PKB attachment approach option, which technically isn't overly complicated (relatively), that hasn't been picked up by anyone. So, I'd agree with @conite that an attractive business case for many many PKBs doesn't seem to exist.

"Isn't overly complicated..." so did you breakdown and build one yourself? Or did Dakkaron come through and build one for you?

Didn't know if I had missed your review of it, just seems like a cumbersome option that would cause most to face reality. At least the Unihertz phones are sized for usages.

But no there isn't much of a real Business Model here.... Now Mexico, I expect a lot more burner phone usage goes on there.

[app_Developer]

I was in Kenya, Tanzania, Nigeria recently and the retail price point for basic glass slabs is down below USD80, and seems to be headed quickly to USD40 with some new devices coming to market soon.

I met a lot of car dealership and service staff and hotel staff and for people under 40 (which remember is *most* people), even with modest incomes, these <$80 Android phones seem to be the standard choice for the vast majority.

So it's the same question as a decade ago: where is the PKB niche and when you find that niche, are those people willing to pay more than the common slab price. If PKB fans are not willing to pay a luxury price, then it seems really unreasonable to think there is a model there.

And that's PKB. To think of a BBOS revival is even more remote. But I do think someone can and should make a BBOS nostalgic app or skin for KaiOS. I think that could be an open source project that BBOS fans could enjoy (if they are willing to contribute)

[Ph1llip]

I believe BB's Android phones failed because they were too different to its old models.

There is a large market for retro products and Nokia sells more feature phones than Androids. The new Nokia 3310 was the third best-selling phone of 2017.

I think BB should licence its name to HMD or another company to produce updated versions of its old phones.

These would resemble the originals, support 5G, run an updated version of BBOS and be marketed as retro feature phones.

Example name: Bold 9900 (2023)

Savvy, you've walked into the BlackBerry shark tank In the nicest possible way, we're telling you that there's no money in BBOS. None. Neither is there any in a PKB phone. On any OS. Even little projects like SES Mobile Accessories, AndroidonPassport and Onward Mobility have failed. Unihertz is the only company making a go of it. That's all you're going to get.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

I was in Kenya, Tanzania, Nigeria recently and the retail price point for basic glass slabs is down below USD80, and seems to be headed quickly to USD40 with some new devices coming to market soon.

I met a lot of car dealership and service staff and hotel staff and for people under 40 (which remember is *most* people), even with modest incomes, these <$80 Android phones seem to be the standard choice for the vast majority.

So it's the same question as a decade ago: where is the PKB niche and when you find that niche, are those people willing to pay more than the common slab price. If PKB fans are not willing to pay a luxury price, then it seems really unreasonable to think there is a model there.

And that's PKB. To think of a BBOS revival is even more remote. But I do think someone can and should make a BBOS nostalgic app or skin for KaiOS. I think that could be an open source project that BBOS fans could enjoy (if they are willing to contribute)

There was a developer group trying to offer a "skin" or Launcher App that would make Android more BB10ish. Was actually pretty impressive what they did in a few months as a beta (was pretty buggy as well). But the interest from the community wasn't there, and what they felt the money potential was... just did not materialize. So they ended it. From memory I think they were only talking about $40K - $50K initially...

KaiOS was pretty much an existing OS (Firefox)... took hundreds of millions to turn that into KaiOS.

[app_Developer]

There was a developer group trying to offer a "skin" or Launcher App that would make Android more BB10ish. Was actually pretty impressive what they did in a few months as a beta (was pretty buggy as well). But the interest from the community wasn't there, and what they felt the money potential was... just did not materialize. So they ended it. From memory I think they were only talking about $40K - $50K initially...

KaiOS was pretty much an existing OS (Firefox)... took hundreds of millions to turn that into KaiOS.

yep, and I was looking at Transsion and what they are doing with their branding of KaiOS for some of their new phones and also another platform that Transsion is working on which is more relevant to my work. I realized that KaiOS gives them a lot of flexibility in UX/UI. That's why I was thinking that a group could make a BB overlay/skin for KaiOS even more easily than you can with Android.

[spARTacus]

"Isn't overly complicated..." so did you breakdown and build one yourself? Or did Dakkaron come through and build one for you?

Didn't know if I had missed your review of it, just seems like a cumbersome option that would cause most to face reality. At least the Unihertz phones are sized for usages...

Well the discussion was talking about a phone or tech company to produce a PKB phone wasn't it? If so, then yes, ridiculously simple in my opinion for a company who could be building a budget Android slab to incorporate a PKB in the manner that Dakkaron did. Also pretty easy, in my opinion, for them to incorporate it in a non cumbersome manner. As I indicated however, no such endeavor has been picked up so the worthwhile business case must not exist.

No I have not yet built one of Dakkaron's myself. Early on I stated that the micro soldering is beyond my capability. Nothing has changed about me or it in that respect.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

Well the discussion was talking about a phone or tech company to produce a PKB phone wasn't it? If so, then yes, ridiculously simple in my opinion for a company who could be building a budget Android slab to incorporate a PKB in the manner that Dakkaron did. Also pretty easy, in my opinion, for them to incorporate it in a non cumbersome manner. As I indicated however, no such endeavor has been picked up so the worthwhile business case must not exist.

No I have not yet built one of Dakkaron's myself. Early on I stated that the micro soldering is beyond my capability. Nothing has changed about me or it in that respect.

Then that sounds like it was overly complicated for 99% of folks.

Anyway I don't think the is anything holding back companies from building PKB phones.... entry level, midgrade of flagship. Other than what they perceive as a lack of a market.

If TCL taught there was a viable PKB market without all the BlackBerry taxes... they could have made a Palm phone after ending BBMo. It the Jio Phone 2 had sold well in India, Jio would have had a newer version with the keyboard made. If Unihetz was seeing any level of sales growth from PKB phones... that might be a sign there is some degree of demand.

[spARTacus]

Then that sounds like it was overly complicated for 99% of folks.

Anyway I don't think the is anything holding back companies from building PKB phones.... entry level, midgrade of flagship. Other than what they perceive as a lack of a market.

If TCL taught there was a viable PKB market without all the BlackBerry taxes... they could have made a Palm phone after ending BBMo. It the Jio Phone 2 had sold well in India, Jio would have had a newer version with the keyboard made. If Unihetz was seeing any level of sales growth from PKB phones... that might be a sign there is some degree of demand.

Agree completely that Dakkaron's DIY PKB attachment is overly complicated for most folks. One would really have to need/want a PKB to get mentally past and into the details of it. Kind of also why Dakkaron was working on a revised concept and board approach, to see about making some of the most complicated steps easier. I still suggest that one of its biggest challenges was awareness, not technical complexity, but that is a different discussion.

Agree also that technically, nothing is holding back a company from building a PKB phone or attachment. The fact that some technically inclined folks can build themselves a PKB attachment for a modern Android slab, means to me that companies could relatively easily also do it if they wanted, and/or build entire PKB phones based on modern Android slabs if they wanted to.

Agree also that all of this means the current market for PKB is quite small, because guys like TCL and Unihertz would have already had even more success with PKB if the market was more ripe for it.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

Agree completely that Dakkaron's DIY PKB attachment is overly complicated for most folks. One would really have to need/want a PKB to get mentally past and into the details of it. Kind of also why Dakkaron was working on a revised concept and board approach, to see about making some of the most complicated steps easier. I still suggest that one of its biggest challenges was awareness, not technical complexity, but that is a different discussion.

A year ago we had a lot more traffic here, and the dream of Onward Mobility and then CB2.0 had kept many coming back... Dakkaron thread got lots of hit, what it didn't get was much interest.

I have no idea what the size of the PKB market really is at this point... but at this point it's below the threshold of being able to offer a decent value on the hardware.

[spARTacus]

Agree.

[Monkey69]

There might be markets for an ultracheap smart feature phone like this, but not blackberry.

A new keyboard phone/device has to either

a) sell to a small niche like titan
b) fill the 'laptop ish' space like clamshells and gaming devices - the market seems to have a place for these
c) Come up with something innovative around folding/scrolling screens that has a big manu and some wow (risky)

A combo of B+C might not be stupid tho, if anyone had the stones to trial it.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

There might be markets for an ultracheap smart feature phone like this, but not blackberry.

A new keyboard phone/device has to either

a) sell to a small niche like titan
b) fill the 'laptop ish' space like clamshells and gaming devices - the market seems to have a place for these
c) Come up with something innovative around folding/scrolling screens that has a big manu and some wow (risky)

A combo of B+C might not be stupid tho, if anyone had the stones to trial it.

Titan sales are too small of a niche... Even Uniherts might be giving up on PKBs.

Pretty sure Plant Computer was going after the clam shell "laptop ish" space or PDA market.... even had some desktopish versions of Linux. Been three years and I'm not sure Plant Computer has another device in them. Several of their engineers and developers left....

Was a PKB feature phone released in Mexico last year, it's only 3G and sold like a burner phone.... but if it sold well enough that carry could offer other versions - it was just one of a number of PKB devices some Chinese company was offering in build orders.

BlackBerry, TCL, Planet Computer, Fxtec, Unihertz... it's not that some haven't taken some risks.

[abruzzo]

Then that sounds like it was overly complicated for 99% of folks.

I took a look at Hardware_Fairberry_Mainboard.md. It is impressive as a feasibility study.
I have sent DIYaudio PCB designs to a FAB for PCBs I could assemble myself. So that part is easy. However, the assembly of the Dakkaron parts would be too much challenge.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

I took a look at Hardware_Fairberry_Mainboard.md. It is impressive as a feasibility study.
I have sent DIYaudio PCB designs to a FAB for PCBs I could assemble myself. So that part is easy. However, the assembly of the Dakkaron parts would be too much challenge.

100% it sounds like a great DIY project for anyone with some micro soldering skills and access to a 3D Printer.

But at the end of the day, I'm not sure how functional the end product would be. I am surprised a few hardcore PKB lovers didn't give it a try yet... Maybe they weren't ready to give up on the KEY devices, maybe they opted to us a Unihertz phone for a bit.

[abruzzo]

100% it sounds like a great DIY project for anyone with some micro soldering skills and access to a 3D Printer.

But at the end of the day, I'm not sure how functional the end product would be. I am surprised a few hardcore PKB lovers didn't give it a try yet... Maybe they weren't ready to give up on the KEY devices, maybe they opted to us a Unihertz phone for a bit.

It's like an engineering prototype for testing in a lab, not for the public yet.

Has anyone considered Bluetooth keyboards which are intended for smartphone use. They are not handheld but one can use them at home, hotel, coffee shop when one needs to type something more than a tweet.
https://www.lifewire.com/best-blueto...phones-4177695

The BB keyboard could be used wirelessly if it was connected to small micro with bluetooth. Perhaps the Dakkaron PCB could be modified to support the connectors. And if there were brave hackers to do the work.

[Chuck Finley69]

It's like an engineering prototype for testing in a lab, not for the public yet.

Has anyone considered Bluetooth keyboards which are intended for smartphone use. They are not handheld but one can use them at home, hotel, coffee shop when one needs to type something more than a tweet.
https://www.lifewire.com/best-blueto...phones-4177695

The BB keyboard could be used wirelessly if it was connected to small micro with bluetooth. Perhaps the Dakkaron PCB could be modified to support the connectors. And if there were brave hackers to do the work.

These all feel like solutions to solve non-existent problems.

[abruzzo]

These all feel like solutions to solve non-existent problems.

Logitech is the business of creating human interface devices -- HIDs. They need to make profit so they sell HIDs like the one in lifewire article .. so problem solved.

Mr Dakkaron is probably a creative person. He needs to create things like the PKB adapter. He is not an OEM so he has probably moved to other ideas. His problem was not to create solutions .. he just needs to create. Problem solved.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

It's like an engineering prototype for testing in a lab, not for the public yet.

Has anyone considered Bluetooth keyboards which are intended for smartphone use. They are not handheld but one can use them at home, hotel, coffee shop when one needs to type something more than a tweet.
https://www.lifewire.com/best-blueto...phones-4177695

The BB keyboard could be used wirelessly if it was connected to small micro with bluetooth. Perhaps the Dakkaron PCB could be modified to support the connectors. And if there were brave hackers to do the work.

If you go back and read the Thread he made, you'll see it's been covered...

[iamdawalrus]

-The same phones circa BBOS7 with more RAM
-No BIS
-No dev account requirement for compiling apps
-Maybe an apt/snap repo system with official and non-official sources

Bliss.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

-The same phones circa BBOS7 with more RAM
-No BIS
-No dev account requirement for compiling apps
-Maybe a debian repo system with official and non-official sources

Bliss.

Might check out the thread on the BeepBerry.

[abruzzo]

It is extremely unlikely that Blackberry wants to hear about phones. However, it seems Nokia really likes making phones. They made 6 or more querty phones before 2013 that remind me of the Q10. They are obsolete GSM phones with Symbian OS so they are no threat to Android. There is a teeny-tiny chance that hell will freeze over and Nokia will reluctantly restart their RIM imitations.

https://www.gsmarena.com/nokia_asha_...tures-4281.php

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

It is extremely unlikely that Blackberry wants to hear about phones. However, it seems Nokia really likes making phones. They made 6 or more querty phones before 2013 that remind me of the Q10. They are obsolete GSM phones with Symbian OS so they are no threat to Android. There is a teeny-tiny chance that hell will freeze over and Nokia will reluctantly restart their RIM imitations.

https://www.gsmarena.com/nokia_asha_...tures-4281.php

Yeah Nokia was the one I had the most hope that might do a retro PKB phone once BBMo called ended their run... even if it was just a feature phone with KaiOS. They have been known to play the "retro" card a few times...