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  1. bog4hire's Avatar
    Partner with a hardware company
    Kyocera or Samsung

    New Blackberry Curve
    WiFi Hotspot
    New Antennas
    Tool Belt (?)

    Current Phones - Q10, Passport
    Favorite Phone - 8900
    04-16-18 11:11 AM
  2. conite's Avatar
    Partner with a hardware company
    Kyocera or Samsung

    New Blackberry Curve
    WiFi Hotspot
    New Antennas
    Tool Belt (?)

    Current Phones - Q10, Passport
    Favorite Phone - 8900
    Who's going to put up the billion dollars a year in development costs?
    IndianTiwari likes this.
    04-16-18 11:27 AM
  3. KAM1138's Avatar
    Where does the Billion Dollars a Year Development cost come from?
    DonHB likes this.
    04-16-18 12:50 PM
  4. conite's Avatar
    Where does the Billion Dollars a Year Development cost come from?
    I know it's low-ball, but the problem remains.

    The math is pretty straight forward.

    According to the lead developer, here is a picture of the BB10 team that "developed the Clock and Weather apps from scratch, and took over maintenance of the Compass and Calculator apps that had been developed in other parts of BB":
    04-16-18 01:04 PM
  5. KAM1138's Avatar
    I asked an honest question--you didn't seem to answer.
    BB10 is a functioning product--still today.
    I'm not a Software engineer, so I don't know what sort of costs go into maintaining an OS like BB10.
    How many hours of Engineering time would it take to maintain this?
    You are stating a Billion Dollars a year, and I gotta say--that seems insanely high, but I have no data to back up that reaction--so perhaps you can give me some sense of the costs/time.
    I'm not talking about Developing a lot of new features or paralleling Android or iOS--I'm talking about maintaining BB10, which would require things like updating the browser and such.
    skinnymike1 and DonHB like this.
    04-16-18 01:10 PM
  6. KAM1138's Avatar
    How many full time Software Engineers do you think it would take to maintain BB10 as a functioning, secure OS?
    They are currently still supporting it, so how much is being spent a year right now?
    A billion dollars divided by $200k a year salary (perhaps a high estimate).
    What's that--5000 Engineers at 2000 hours a year. 10 Million Hours of Engineering time a year (if that's the basis of the cost)?
    coffee-turtle and DonHB like this.
    04-16-18 01:13 PM
  7. conite's Avatar
    I asked an honest question--you didn't seem to answer.
    BB10 is a functioning product--still today.
    I'm not a Software engineer, so I don't know what sort of costs go into maintaining an OS like BB10.
    How many hours of Engineering time would it take to maintain this?
    You are stating a Billion Dollars a year, and I gotta say--that seems insanely high, but I have no data to back up that reaction--so perhaps you can give me some sense of the costs/time.
    I'm not talking about Developing a lot of new features or paralleling Android or iOS--I'm talking about maintaining BB10, which would require things like updating the browser and such.
    Look at my post again - I gave an example of the large team (almost 40 people) that supported 4 small apps.

    One billion dollars is a fraction of what Google or Apple spends on OS development per year.

    If you remember, BlackBerry announced the layoffs of 4500 people (mostly developers) from the device division in late 2013.

    Costs also include the infrastructure built around development - support frameworks, physical plant, administration, etc.
    Last edited by conite; 04-16-18 at 01:25 PM.
    04-16-18 01:14 PM
  8. KAM1138's Avatar
    Hello,

    Ok, this is odd--I didn't see anything but the First Line of your Response, so the rest was not assuming the other information.

    That said...I'm amazed that it would take 40 people to create basic apps like a Clock, compass or calculator app.

    How many Calculators (more elaborate ones) are available on Android? Are you telling me that these require a full time 10 Engineer staff consistently over the life of the product? That would surprise me. Is there something really special or unique about how basic apps like this work within BB10 that would require a large continuous expenditure?

    But of course, we aren't talking about DEVELOPING new apps or features--BB10 is already designed and functioning. So, this would be exclusively about maintaining it.

    As I stated--they are currently maintaining it, and I HIGHLY doubt they are spending a billion dollars a year on that.

    So, I don't see what the basis of your Billion dollar a year claim is.

    If this is your best explanation, then I'll thank you for your time, but I'm afraid I'm not tracking your example as a basis for your Billion Dollar figure.
    skinnymike1, BerryRipe and DonHB like this.
    04-16-18 01:28 PM
  9. KAM1138's Avatar
    Hello,

    Ah--I see. I may have misled you with my first post's wording. I did not intend to talk about DEVELOPING new product. I'm talking about keeping the Current OS operating--which would I assume include various updates for security, etc.

    I'm talking about keeping an existing OS working--which I should have explicitly called maintenance. My apologies.
    DonHB likes this.
    04-16-18 01:31 PM
  10. KAM1138's Avatar
    Anyone know how many people are working to keep BB10 updated (such as it is)?
    How many Dollars or hours are being spent by Blackberry?
    DonHB likes this.
    04-16-18 01:33 PM
  11. conite's Avatar
    Hello,

    Ah--I see. I may have misled you with my first post's wording. I did not intend to talk about DEVELOPING new product. I'm talking about keeping the Current OS operating--which would I assume include various updates for security, etc.

    I'm talking about keeping an existing OS working--which I should have explicitly called maintenance. My apologies.
    But "such as it is" has a shelf life - and that's now.

    They need to develop for new SoCs and hardware, as older devices are dying and older parts are no longer available.

    New hardware would require a complete revamping of the software (switching to 64-bit is just one such task). Just removing the Android Runtime alone, as required by OHA regulations, would be a monumental undertaking as it is deeply interwoven with the OS.

    BB10 is too far gone for "just" maintenance.

    Plus, the entire OS support infrastructure would have to be rebuilt from scratch. So now we have developers AND support personnel that need to be trained from zero. You'd be 18 months away from even beginning to produce a basic framework.
    Last edited by conite; 04-16-18 at 02:28 PM.
    skinnymike1 and IndianTiwari like this.
    04-16-18 02:08 PM
  12. glwerry's Avatar
    Hello,

    Ah--I see. I may have misled you with my first post's wording. I did not intend to talk about DEVELOPING new product. I'm talking about keeping the Current OS operating--which would I assume include various updates for security, etc.

    I'm talking about keeping an existing OS working--which I should have explicitly called maintenance. My apologies.
    This has been debated at great length already.
    The hardware that BB10 runs on is old.

    If you wanted to run BB10 on newer hardware it would be necessary to update BB10 extensively to run on the new hardware ("drivers").
    It would also be necessary to update software like the browser.

    All of this takes money and people. Expensive people. People who are no longer employed by BB.

    At the end of the day you would still have the APP GAP. For instance, people like FaceBook, which includes Whatsapp and possibly Instagram, have DROPPED support for BB10.
    So, you would be trying to develop a platform that critical, important developers have DROPPED.

    You would have to rebuild the store, with the few apps that are still there.
    Plus which, you would be developing a REVISED version of BB10, which might BREAK the few existing apps that are still available. Then you have to convince the developers to REBUILD their apps.

    That brings up another issue: although my life is in software development and maintenance, I have no background in mobile software. I have read, however, that the tools that are offered to build BB10 apps with are badly out of date and in need of updating. This brings MORE COST, both for BB and the app developers.

    So, even doing it as a "maintenance" project is just not feasible.
    skinnymike1 likes this.
    04-16-18 02:52 PM
  13. KAM1138's Avatar
    I didn't mention this, but I'm thinking about a narrower purpose than Maintenance of BB10 in its current form. I'm thinking about this in regards to the Post today about Chen's mention of a Bold9900 Type device.

    Blaze actually brought up BB10 in the article--as a possibility.

    So, in regards to that, I think that 3rd Party Apps are specifically not part of this.
    DonHB likes this.
    04-16-18 03:17 PM
  14. KAM1138's Avatar
    The issue of components that work with BB10 being unavailable is certainly a fair one. I don't see a need for hardware with more capabilities than say the Passport (still works great), but that doesn't mean it is still available I suppose.

    You say personnel have to be trained from Zero? Why that assumption? Isn't it possible that there are people who worked on BB10 (experience) would be potentially available to work on this?

    It almost sounds as if you're talking about this being a Lost Knowledge sort of situation--which I find hard to believe in a modern era. Are there really no people that understand BB10?

    So, it sounds like you're saying that a product that is working today, is essentially worthless, and essentially like "the great machine" that just works, but that no one understands and cannot be applied to any other hardware without literally a Billion Dollars a year in investment.

    If it takes a Billion Dollars a year to "maintain" (upkeep, etc) an OS for a phone that only has basic function, and 10 Billion a year to keep other OS current (iOS and Android), then I'll admit--I'm amazed.

    How much did Blackberry spend to develop BB10 from Scratch?

    So, Blaze Posted the Following:
    "I've long held the belief that BlackBerry 10 would be a fine OS for a device like this to run on and have mentioned it a few times. If you cut out the apps and such, which we all know BlackBerry lacks now, you have what Chen is describing with just a few minor updates."

    So, he's describing "Minor updates" and you're saying that this is A billion Dollars a year? I have no basis to judge which of you is correct.
    DonHB likes this.
    04-16-18 03:30 PM
  15. conite's Avatar
    I didn't mention this, but I'm thinking about a narrower purpose than Maintenance of BB10 in its current form. I'm thinking about this in regards to the Post today about Chen's mention of a Bold9900 Type device.

    Blaze actually brought up BB10 in the article--as a possibility.

    So, in regards to that, I think that 3rd Party Apps are specifically not part of this.
    I suppose one could make a BB10-light to just provide email, SMS, and a simple browser.

    But we'd still be talking about many 10s of millions.
    IndianTiwari likes this.
    04-16-18 03:33 PM
  16. conite's Avatar

    You say personnel have to be trained from Zero? Why that assumption? Isn't it possible that there are people who worked on BB10 (experience) would be potentially available to work on this?

    It almost sounds as if you're talking about this being a Lost Knowledge sort of situation--which I find hard to believe in a modern era. Are there really no people that understand BB10?.
    They are all gone and have other jobs.

    You'd need hundreds, or perhaps thousands of them.
    IndianTiwari likes this.
    04-16-18 03:35 PM
  17. KAM1138's Avatar
    Wow, this has been very enlightening. I had no idea that the software business was so backwards and bloated that a product is so locked into a point in time. Well, at least Blackberry.

    Is this a flaw in BB10's entire concept--that it is so massively inflexible and unworkable? Not just the OS, but First Party Apps as well that require 40 full time employees (or more) to produce a clock, compass, calculator and weather app.

    I'm not kidding--this blows my mind. THOUSANDS of full time employees to take an existing, working product and do ANYTHING with it, except what it is now (current devices).

    So, (no offense), you're saying that Blaze's statement is just totally unrealistic?
    DonHB likes this.
    04-16-18 03:44 PM
  18. KAM1138's Avatar
    So, I was sort of assuming that you had seen the article. Is what they're talking about there a totally different situation from the "Billion a year" thing?
    1-10% of that perhaps?
    DonHB likes this.
    04-16-18 03:46 PM
  19. conite's Avatar
    Wow, this has been very enlightening. I had no idea that the software business was so backwards and bloated that a product is so locked into a point in time. Well, at least Blackberry.

    Is this a flaw in BB10's entire concept--that it is so massively inflexible and unworkable? Not just the OS, but First Party Apps as well that require 40 full time employees (or more) to produce a clock, compass, calculator and weather app.

    I'm not kidding--this blows my mind. THOUSANDS of full time employees to take an existing, working product and do ANYTHING with it, except what it is now (current devices).

    So, (no offense), you're saying that Blaze's statement is just totally unrealistic?
    Welcome to the world of proprietary OS development - a game only for the big boys with deep, deep pockets.
    IndianTiwari likes this.
    04-16-18 03:54 PM
  20. KAM1138's Avatar
    And apparently for Maintenance as well.

    Is there some inherent necessity that makes it so inefficient?

    What changed over the last 10-15 years? Obviously, the market has matured, but back then Palm, Blackberry, Apple and Google were all able to pursue Phone OS from scratch, and now, it's so inefficient of a proposition that even maintaining an existing product is near impossible.

    What has fundamentally changed in how software works that has made it so unwieldy.

    I guess those are rhetorical questions and not really the point of this thread's OP. I'm just surprised if it is even a fraction of what you describe why no one has figured out a better approach.
    DonHB likes this.
    04-16-18 04:06 PM
  21. conite's Avatar
    And apparently for Maintenance as well.

    Is there some inherent necessity that makes it so inefficient?

    What changed over the last 10-15 years? Obviously, the market has matured, but back then Palm, Blackberry, Apple and Google were all able to pursue Phone OS from scratch, and now, it's so inefficient of a proposition that even maintaining an existing product is near impossible.

    What has fundamentally changed in how software works that has made it so unwieldy.

    I guess those are rhetorical questions and not really the point of this thread's OP. I'm just surprised if it is even a fraction of what you describe why no one has figured out a better approach.
    BB10 is no different than Android or iOS.

    Google has over 30,000 people working in R&D.
    IndianTiwari likes this.
    04-16-18 04:13 PM
  22. glwerry's Avatar
    And apparently for Maintenance as well.

    Is there some inherent necessity that makes it so inefficient?

    What changed over the last 10-15 years? Obviously, the market has matured, but back then Palm, Blackberry, Apple and Google were all able to pursue Phone OS from scratch, and now, it's so inefficient of a proposition that even maintaining an existing product is near impossible.

    What has fundamentally changed in how software works that has made it so unwieldy.

    I guess those are rhetorical questions and not really the point of this thread's OP. I'm just surprised if it is even a fraction of what you describe why no one has figured out a better approach.
    Operating systems are VERY complex pieces of software.
    As complexity goes up, so does the cost to maintain and the danger - one small mistake can easily become a disaster of sorts.

    Here is a small example. Several years (1997?) ago we upgraded our General Ledger / Financial software to a new release of the software.
    We had a number (about 12) of customizations that had to be brought forward.
    That effort took MONTHS of work, at least 2 programming types on our end, a contractor and several people on the vendor side. It cost us AT LEAST $250,000. in 1997.

    If I want to install a new version of a major software package I am looking at TENS of millions of dollars, NOT including the cost of all of the people in my organization.

    Talk to a mechanic some time about what it would take to drop a Ford engine into your Chevy car. It's not as simple as what a person thinks.
    04-16-18 04:59 PM
  23. KAM1138's Avatar
    So, given the basic outline mentioned by Chen for a device with core functions would it be cheaper to start from scratch?
    Given that a mechanical analogy has been introduced, I'll follow that.
    So you know you want a new engine, and may have to build it from scratch, but you already have the knowledge of what an engine is and does. You just have to build it to interface with the other components. Given that you are building from scratch you can do that.
    You don't have to develop the science of internal combustion or even the specific tech, you are just changing the dimensions.


    Is there no benefit from having code written and the architecture designed? Back to a mechanical analogy. Could you not strip it down and still have that foundation?

    Posted via CB10
    DonHB likes this.
    04-16-18 05:17 PM
  24. KAM1138's Avatar
    BB10 is no different than Android or iOS.

    Google has over 30,000 people working in R&D.
    I have to imagine that having having a broad array of devices is an issue--for android. Not sure why Apple would have as much of an issue with few devices.

    KAM

    Posted via CB10
    DonHB likes this.
    04-16-18 05:23 PM
  25. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    I have to imagine that having having a broad array of devices is an issue--for android. Not sure why Apple would have as much of an issue with few devices.

    KAM

    Posted via CB10
    The point is that Apple, Google, Microsoft and BlackBerry all had to have large numbers of employees to develop and support proprietary OS. The fact that BB10 has been in maintenance type mode, suggests that it would take significant additional efforts and employees to support.

    If BBMo/TCL or another OEM agrees to foot the bill to use BB10 instead of Android, they can license from BB. You don't see anyone lined up yet.
    04-17-18 06:47 AM
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