[i7guy]

Or lets do this since 2007 what has RIM innovated? Anyone? Anyone?

We could go back and forth with this innovation thing. You could say the iPhone is the gold standard but it's more of an overall improvement of the collective of ideas. You could define innovation I suppose by the number of patents I'm not going to that level.

[Caesar1844]

I don't think you have to go to that level of detail. You just have to ask the question - which companies have driven the ongoing development and improvement of the smartphone as an enterprise tool? Generally speaking, which companies have provided the big leaps forward in terms of increased business function and capability, and redefined the business market for others to follow?

The answer is, not Apple or Google. The big leaps forward they've contributed to are in other areas. If they become the leading providers of business smartphones then I am worried about who will take the initiative in the industry.

[stuaw11]

But again who really cares?

There are likely 10 times the consumer customers (and small businesses/sole proprietors) as there are true enterprise users. Pure enterprise is but a mere niche of smartphone customers today; this is not 2000 where if you had a smartphone (Treo, WM, or BB) you were more than likely enterprise or else you had a feature phone. While still a significant area, it is certainly not the majority of smartphone users anymore.

Who cares if Apple and Android dont target enterprise? Does that make them any less meaningful in the overall market?

You all seem want to defend RIM on the one small portion you find as defensible rather than looking at the entire market as a whole. And the reality is Apple and Android are in fact invading the enterprise space. Workers arent merely corporate anymore, they want a device they can have fun with at home equally as use as a tool for work. And BB doesnt hold muster as a good consumer device for outside the office.

Bottom line is Android and Apple dominate the consumer space and are moving into the enterprise space, while RIM is still a leader in enterprise but have failed to invade the mainstream consumer space. This is not good for RIM no matter how you cut it as Apple and Android still dominate the overall marketshare. Marketshare is marketshare whether its consumer or enterprise; neither is more important.

[Caesar1844]

But again who really cares?

Er... me. I am a business user and I am concerned about my needs getting marginalised. Is that okay with you?

You all seem want to defend RIM on the one small portion you find as defensible rather than looking at the entire market as a whole.

Nobody is defending RIM. They are a company that has been struggling for several years. What I am defending is the need for a significant player in the market with the enterprise focus of RIM. A company that actually WANTS to create innovative smartphone solutions for business, rather than sees business users as a sideline.

Do you think the business capabilities of iOS and Android would be remotely as good as they are today if they hadn't been forced to keep up with the BB? Virtually every big leap forward in enterprise functionality on modern smartphones was initiated by the BlackBerry. And it's not because RIM is a smarter or better company than Google and Apple - quite the reverse. It's because that is actually their core business focus. The others don't care.

Where are these innovations going to come from if RIM disappears?

And the reality is Apple and Android are in fact invading the enterprise space. Workers arent merely corporate anymore, they want a device they can have fun with at home equally as use as a tool for work. And BB doesnt hold muster as a good consumer device for outside the office.

Great stuff. But the reality is that for a lot of people, a smartphone is primarily a business machine. Which means for a lot of people, enterprise innovation is the most important part of the platform.

Apple and Google are great companies with great products, but they suck at enterprise innovation. That's what concerns me about the future of the industry if the only company that has consistently set the benchmark for corporate smartphone innovation falls by the wayside.

Bottom line is Android and Apple dominate the consumer space and are moving into the enterprise space, while RIM is still a leader in enterprise but have failed to invade the mainstream consumer space. This is not good for RIM no matter how you cut it as Apple and Android still dominate the overall marketshare. Marketshare is marketshare whether its consumer or enterprise; neither is more important.

All great news for Apple and Google. So what? Not being a shareholder of either I don't particularly care.

I'm a business smartphone power user. All I care about is that the market continues to provide innovative products that meets my needs. Unless one or both of them change direction, a market dominated by Apple and Google doesn't look like it will do that on a long-term basis.

[stuaw11]

Funny but last time I read some parts of the government (enterprise) were moving to Google services/email actually. Sounds like Google is making way into enterprise to me.

And Apple/Android mainly use Exchange server technology which is a Microsoft tech (Gmail uses Exchange tech with Android and iphone for push). So even without RIM, Microsoft would still drive enterprise innovation and support. People here love to forget Exchange still is one of the largest enterprise services used in business, not RIM's services, and drive most of the push sync Android/iOS use for email. Apple doesnt drive innovation because it doesnt provide the backbone as RIM does, it merely is the device to support the backbone service like Exchange. You may not like Exchange personally, but that doesn't discredit its functionality.

The truth is that you only care about your needs instead of the big picture here. And unfortunately, your personal needs and wants are irrelevant to the facts presented by others about the market and trends which do matter and decisions are based off of.

[Caesar1844]

Funny but last time I read some parts of the government (enterprise) were moving to Google services/email actually. Sounds like Google is making way into enterprise to me.

Nobody is disputing that. But there is a difference between taking a share of the enterprise market, and making innovations that drive enterprise technology forward.

If RIM disappeared tomorrow, I would have a decentish substitute in Apple or Google products. Not as good as I'd like, but it would suffice.

The issue is where the business smartphone will be 2, 4, 10 years down the track without a business-focused company driving that aspect of smartphone functionality.

And Apple/Android mainly use Exchange server technology which is a Microsoft tech (Gmail uses Exchange tech with Android and iphone for push). So even without RIM, Microsoft would still drive enterprise innovation and support.

Er, not really. Sure they drive the underlying email technology, but (outside of Windows Mobile) Microsoft doesn't drive development of the business smartphone.

Think beyond email - think beyond what is generally accepted as constituting the current enterprise smartphone's capabilities. Without RIM who is going to develop the next killer business app? Who will design products with the needs of the business user front of mind? History says it will not be Apple or Google.

The truth is that you only care about your needs instead of the big picture here. And unfortunately, your personal needs and wants are irrelevant to the facts presented by others about the market and trends which do matter and decisions are based off of.

Big ******* whoop. This is what really pisses me off about fanboys. They have such a hard-on for the company that produces their product that they get all tied up about justifying their business model. They don't actually broaden their minds and consider what is best for the consumer.

The reality is that the consumer is best served by a diversity of companies with a diversity of focuses, servicing different market needs.

If you weren't so tied up in proving why Apple/Google is better than RIM, maybe you'd see that.

[belfastdispatcher]

RIM shows increasing numbers of BES servers and services sold makes up 41% of their revenues I believe(according to crackberry podcast) so where the helll do some people get their info that Apple and Google are driving them out?

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[anon(153966)]

I seriously just want a faster internet browsing experience on the BlackBerry. I'm seriously hoping the BlackBerry 9900 gives me that. If so, well, I'll be walking with one

Having said that, with the iOS 5 imminent, it will be hard to not say Apple are really trying to 'steal' RIM customers.

[belfastdispatcher]

I seriously just want a faster internet browsing experience on the BlackBerry. I'm seriously hoping the BlackBerry 9900 gives me that. If so, well, I'll be walking with one

Having said that, with the iOS 5 imminent, it will be hard to not say Apple are really trying to 'steal' RIM customers.

I thought they said it's gonna be 40% faster.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[Accidental Post]

Just another reason not to go back to BB;

http://forums.crackberry.com/f40/bgr...berrys-624409/

And before the BGR bashers jump on this. Think of this objectively.

OS builds Android roughly one year....
iOS Annual
BB monthly

So I ask a very simple question why does BB update their OS almost every month or so.......?

Look at the leaks and then the offiicals.

[i7guy]

It's a reason for you not me. I frankly don't care what they say, I care about how it performs.

[belfastdispatcher]

Just another reason not to go back to BB;

http://forums.crackberry.com/f40/bgr...berrys-624409/

And before the BGR bashers jump on this. Think of this objectively.

OS builds Android roughly one year....
iOS Annual
BB monthly

So I ask a very simple question why does BB update their OS almost every month or so.......?

Look at the leaks and then the offiicals.

BB monthly? Surely you mean leaked OSes as I only had 3-4 official updates from Vodafone UK for my 9700 in almost 2 years.

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[GolfnCPA]

I am an iPhone user, but I see both sides to this argument. RIM is extremely relevant and necessary on the smartphone landscape, just as Apple and Google are.

To be honest with you, and I've stated this here before so no surprise, the iPhone is highly disadvantaged to the Blackberry in certain functions, but I have assumed these downfalls in favor of what I feel are significant advantages in many other areas.

I truly hope that RIM will get their act together and start innovating again, QNX to appease the user experience while retaining the solid core function is a great start, and I will take a long hard look at a return. Many of my colleagues feel the same way.

As for me, I spend nearly all of my work time in front of a PC with access to email, calendars, etc. When I am away from the office, I still get access to those services through my iPhone, and quite honestly, I didn't like being "connected" as well as I was with my BB when out of the office. Away from work is my personal time, and I spend a lot of it at Little League, recitals, etc. with the family, so the iP4 provides a nice sidebar for the "slow times" of my personal life.

They all are learning from each other. To me, RIM is the stream of consciousness that keeps Apple and Google honest on their need to provide some business with the pleasure. Just being there as an alternative to the user forces A & G to make concessions on their devices.

[Accidental Post]

BB monthly? Surely you mean leaked OSes as I only had 3-4 official updates from Vodafone UK for my 9700 in almost 2 years.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

Thats what I said look at the leaks then the officials.

4 Officials in 2 years is every 6 months. What are they fixing? I mean innovating?

[belfastdispatcher]

Thats what I said look at the leaks then the officials.

4 Officials in 2 years is every 6 months. What are they fixing? I mean innovating?

One of them was the OS6, so pretty big change there.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[Accidental Post]

From Crackberry.com

To make sure we're all on the same page here, we need to be clear up front - BlackBerry 6 isn't an all new operating system but rather an evolutionary upgrade in a long line of upgrades to the BlackBerry device software that has been donning BlackBerry handhelds for a decade. In the five years I've been a BlackBerry user I've now seen the operating system progress from version 4.0 to 4.1 to 4.2 to 4.21 to 4.22 to 4.3 to 4.5 to 4.6 to 4.7 to the 5.0 device software currently running on most in-market BlackBerry Smartphones. So whether it was labeled as OS 5.2 or BlackBerry 6, what we're discussing still represents the latest progression of the legacy BlackBerry platform. It's not like when Palm introduced their new webOS platform last year, completely severing ties with their legacy Palm OS and effectively starting at version 1 again.

Me: No matter how many times you put lipstick on a pig....it's still a pig.

[belfastdispatcher]

From Crackberry.com

To make sure we're all on the same page here, we need to be clear up front - BlackBerry 6 isn't an all new operating system but rather an evolutionary upgrade in a long line of upgrades to the BlackBerry device software that has been donning BlackBerry handhelds for a decade. In the five years I've been a BlackBerry user I've now seen the operating system progress from version 4.0 to 4.1 to 4.2 to 4.21 to 4.22 to 4.3 to 4.5 to 4.6 to 4.7 to the 5.0 device software currently running on most in-market BlackBerry Smartphones. So whether it was labeled as OS 5.2 or BlackBerry 6, what we're discussing still represents the latest progression of the legacy BlackBerry platform. It's not like when Palm introduced their new webOS platform last year, completely severing ties with their legacy Palm OS and effectively starting at version 1 again.

Me: No matter how many times you put lipstick on a pig....it's still a pig.

Hmmm, let's see, from OS5 to OS6:

New UI with universal search, drop down notifications bar and drop down connections bar
New webkit browser with tabs
New social feeds function integrating all social network apps and instant messaging clients including BBM(post to all of them in one go) as well as integrating RSS feeds reader
New youtube upload function
New media functions integrating podcasts and wifi sync with itunes
New blackberry maps

Sounds pretty big update to me, have you even used OS6?

Evolution yes but a pretty big evolutionary step.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[Accidental Post]

Yep on the 9650 I had you ever owned an iPhone?

[belfastdispatcher]

Yep on the 9650 I had you ever owned an iPhone?

No, but what's that got to do with anything? I wouldn't ask so many questions about what iphones can or can't do if I had owned one. To stay on topic though, OS6 was a pretty big OS step in the right direction, not just a minor update.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[Accidental Post]

It has a lot to do with it. You have come into this forum and tried to make attempt after attempt on a debate on why the BB OS is better than iOS. And you have not owned both devices. So what ever you say about an iPhone is hearsay or what you read on a blog somewhere. So sit down in the corner and stop talking about things you don't have experience with.

I have owned BB's Droids and iOS devices. I am not claiming to be the end all know all. But at least my statements comes from ownership of all those devices.

[belfastdispatcher]

It has a lot to do with it. You have come into this forum and tried to make attempt after attempt on a debate on why the BB OS is better than iOS. And you have not owned both devices. So what ever you say about an iPhone is hearsay or what you read on a blog somewhere. So sit down in the corner and stop talking about things you don't have experience with.

I have owned BB's Droids and iOS devices. I am not claiming to be the end all know all. But at least my statements comes from ownership of all those devices.

So how am I supposed to find out what an iphone can or can't do without owning one? I ask, people answer, it's not my fault it turns out you don't like the ansewrs and your iphone can't actually do that much and BB turns out to be better at some things.
But then again, you think copying a webpage link and pasting it in a text message to send it to a contact is an efficient way of doing things.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[Accidental Post]

Nope I tap an icon and send it. AVT corrected me.

[Accidental Post]

You cannot effectively argue two items without owning both of them. DONE

All you do is question peoples ownership of Blackberries. You have done this over and over again in this thread. But, when someone asks YOU if you have ever owned an iPhone (BTW I knew the answer already.) You say no and continue to argue the merits of the BB vs iPhone device. This is old and stale and no longer worthy of an argument or even a response to you. When you own an iPhone you are more than welcome to come back here and argue the merits until then.................

[belfastdispatcher]

Nope I tap an icon and send it. AVT corrected me.

He did for EMAIL only not sms/mms/IM/Facebook/twitter etc
You can't keep ignoring the hard facts.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[belfastdispatcher]

You cannot effectively argue two items without owning both of them. DONE

If I owned both of them as you obviously have, why would I argue? I would KNOW, something you obviously don't and have to be told, by BB and iphone owners.

So in your view anybody that didn't own an iphone can't have an opinion on it?
Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com