[sivan]

Right, but it also has a slippery glass enclosure with straight angles whereas the BlackBerry has a rubberized contoured shape that's more secure and comfortable to hold. The BlackBerry is a superior design.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[JRSCCivic98]

I'd like to add that there's no double-sided tape holding any buttons on an iPhone... something current gen BBs still use. Heck, even the original iPhone didn't have this.

[FigureThisOut]

Right, but it also has a slippery glass enclosure with straight angles whereas the BlackBerry has a rubberized contoured shape that's more secure and comfortable to hold. It's a superior design.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

If it slips out of your hand that much you need to look into this.
Palmar Hyperhidrosis

And if you find a BB to have superior design, that's fine with me. Excuse me
while I laugh hysterically at your aesthetic standards.

[sivan]

And if you find a BB to have superior design, that's fine with me. Excuse me
while I laugh hysterically at your aesthetic standards.

Finally, you touched on the central issue here, aesthetics.

How much of the iPhone design is eye candy and how much is actually good design. Can appearance justify a defective antenna? How much of that aesthetic is really enjoyed when the device is wrapped in a case?

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[pilsbury]

Right, but it also has a slippery glass enclosure with straight angles whereas the BlackBerry has a rubberized contoured shape that's more secure and comfortable to hold. The BlackBerry is a superior design.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

By superior you mean including the greatest RIM product ever, the Storm 1?

[sivan]

By superior you mean including the greatest RIM product ever, the Storm 1?

I'm not familiar with it.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[zwoof]

The iPhone is the best one I've used by far. And it's well built and perfectly designed. Easy access to everything, the soft keyboard, retina screen is unreal. I had a BB Bold and it can't do the job nearly as good as the iPhone. The browsing experience on the iPhone is second to none and can do everything the BB can but better. The one thing I will say about the Bold is it's well built and is a good phone but couldn't do the things well that I expect from a smartphone. Internet access is very important when paying 30 bucks a month for a data plan and this is where BB sorely lags.

[AStranger]

Finally, you touched on the central issue here, aesthetics.

How much of the iPhone design is eye candy and how much is actually good design. Can appearance justify a defective antenna? How much of that aesthetic is really enjoyed when the device is wrapped in a case?

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

The antenna issue was frankly, a little overblown. Most people that I've spoken to haven't even noticed it so suggesting that it is defective is a little much. It gets at least as good reception as my blackberry bold did.

It also doesn't really need to be in a case - but you see a lot of people on this forum talking about cases for their blackberries too.

Don't get me started on how much easier to use the OS is.

For bad design - with my blackberry bold if I turned data roaming to off then it wouldn't let me use wifi when I was roaming. That is idiotic design.

[JRSCCivic98]

Oh, thank god I'm finally able to post this. For the past few hours I couldn't get online because I had taken off my cover and for some reason every time I picked up my phone, the signal would go dead for some strange reason.

[sivan]

This is not about BlackBerry vs iPhone.

I'm really interested in pinpointing exactly how much of the iPhone appeal is due to good design, vs perception of design. The iPhone screams sophisticated design, but how much of it is actually good and worthy of appeal?

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[JRSCCivic98]

Well, you know I don't like crap designs. I think it's fair to say I was one of the first to complain about the S1 screen gap and continued to yap about it constantly. Add to that the screen wobble, stuck on keys on the front and it was a crap aesthetic design overall. I don't know how anyone could have signed off on the final QC of it. (RIM should follow up the CMO firing with their CQCO while they're at it.) Then the Tour hit and it had a loose battery door issue. Seriously, WTF? Finally the S2 came out and that was a vast improvement over fit/finish of the S1, but it still had a few detail issues. Then the Touchpad BBs hit and had wobbly pads. Then the Torch came and it had it's issues. A lot of people won't notice or care about these problems, but perfectionists will pull their hair out. This is where Apple comes into play. Their stuff has perfect fit from what I've seen so far from both their mobile devices and PCs/laptops. The tolerances are tight, the assembly is perfect, etc. I think this is why people say their product is higher quality.

[sivan]

Well, you know I don't like crap designs. I think it's fair to say I was one of the first to complain about the S1 screen gap and continued to yap about it constantly. Add to that the screen wobble, stuck on keys on the front and it was a crap aesthetic design overall. I don't know how anyone could have signed off on the final QC of it. (RIM should follow up the CMO firing with their CQCO while they're at it.) Then the Tour hit and it had a loose battery door issue. Seriously, WTF? Finally the S2 came out and that was a vast improvement over fit/finish of the S1, but it still had a few detail issues. Then the Touchpad BBs hit and had wobbly pads. Then the Torch came and it had it's issues. A lot of people won't notice or care about these problems, but perfectionists will pull their hair out. This is where Apple comes into play. Their stuff has perfect fit from what I've seen so far from both their mobile devices and PCs/laptops. The tolerances are tight, the assembly is perfect, etc. I think this is why people say their product is higher quality.

Sure, the build quality is excellent. But it is also easier when you cut physical features, be it ports, replaceable battery or SD card, and of course, keyboards. It's also easier when you produce one device only, paying no attention to variety. And finally, it's easier when you advise your customers to put the phone in a case. Then it can be cut like a jewel and be beautiful and fragile.

There are all kinds of perfectionists I guess. Some will buy an iPhone for the build quality, even when it dispenses with basic ergonomics and practicalities. I think it's myopic.

[FigureThisOut]

Spare me the "pay attention to no variety." Give me an f'ng break.

[sivan]

Spare me the "pay attention to no variety." Give me an f'ng break.

Okay. What else?

[AStranger]

Sure, the build quality is excellent. But it is also easier when you cut physical features, be it ports, replaceable battery or SD card, and of course, keyboards. It's also easier when you produce one device only, paying no attention to variety. And finally, it's easier when you advise your customers to put the phone in a case. Then it can be cut like a jewel and be beautiful and fragile.

There are all kinds of perfectionists I guess. Some will buy an iPhone for the build quality, even when it dispenses with basic ergonomics and practicalities. I think it's myopic.

But it is also easier when you cut physical features, be it ports, replaceable battery or SD card, and of course, keyboards.

Ports, battery and SD cards are legitimate gripes - although the market has shown that there is sufficient number of people who don't value those features enough for it to be an issue. That is a pretty subjective issue of whether it's a poor design or not - that's an issue of a market decision within the design as to what features to provide. They predicted that there wasn't as much of a market need for those features that would be decisive in a phone purchase and they were right.

You are entitled to think that was a poor design decision, but that is purely subjective as to whether you need those features or not.

It's also easier when you produce one device only, paying no attention to variety

So what? Apple made a decision to come out with one device and it has not hurt them at all. This has nothing to do with any argument about design at all.

If Apple's design was so horrible then it would have flopped - there would have been an initial rush to buy and then the horrible reviews would start coming in. They didn't.

Keyboard isn't an issue since people frankly seem to have adjusted to use the soft keyboard - it's something even RIM has started offering models with and most (if not all) android phones do have some form of soft keyboard. How is that a design flaw when people have no problem using it?

it dispenses with basic ergonomics and practicalities.

I don't think it dispenses with those at all and most on this forum seem to agree with me.

[JRSCCivic98]

Nokia has variety and better build quality than RIM, what's your excuse for that manufacturer?

Let just be honest here... sacrificing build quality for variety is a pretty poor excuse synth. There should be no reason why someone can't build a dog house or a human house with the same quality and workmanship. The only real credible excuse is cost-cutting, poor QC, poor designers, and the fact that you're building a cheaper phone for mass consumption.

Personally, I hope RIM gets past this "Let's make as many phones as possible and put them in as many countries as possible so we can pad our numbers." business practice they're in now. I'd like them to continue to have some variety with their offerings, but they need to streamline their designs a lot and also come up with 2 or 3 models max for both business and consumer markets. Focus on that for a while because it's obvious they cannot handle mass production of various models with cheap labor and cheap materials.


Also, what ports are missing on the iPhone compared to a BB? There's a microUSB and headphone jack on a BB and on an iPhone there's the multiport at the bottom and a headphone jack. If Apple wanted a microSD card slot on the iphone, you better belive it that it would be the same quality as the SIM slot on it. Additonal buttons for camera, etc. would be just as good as the other 4 buttons on the phone are now. As for the battery compartment, I'm a firm believer that you can make a removable battery door that doesn't suck because of a cheap hinge or release design. If anyone could make one, it would probably be Apple, because they wouldn't put out anything that's sub-par. That's my belief of course.... but it's based on everything I've seen from them for the past few years.

[sivan]

But it is also easier when you cut physical features, be it ports, replaceable battery or SD card, and of course, keyboards.

Ports, battery and SD cards are legitimate gripes - although the market has shown that there is sufficient number of people who don't value those features enough for it to be an issue. That is a pretty subjective issue of whether it's a poor design or not - that's an issue of a market decision within the design as to what features to provide. They predicted that there wasn't as much of a market need for those features that would be decisive in a phone purchase and they were right.

I'm not griping, I'm enumerating the tradeoffs Apple has taken that enable this design. Doing away with these features allows for a more streamlined design and manufacturing process, tighter tolerance is easier and cheaper to achieve without a number of physical parts that need to fit together. So when one admires the iPhone build quality it should be tempered by the tradeoffs Apple took to make this possible.

You are entitled to think that was a poor design decision, but that is purely subjective as to whether you need those features or not.

Again, these are all tradeoffs. Apple still kept the mute, volume and home keys because it deemed them important enough. Other manufacturers also kept the SD card slot and removable battery covers. Every manufacturer decides which tradeoffs to make in their design. Apple kept the least of those features, and as a consequence has an easier time producing better build quality
. The subjective part is whether a user can adapt to the missing features or not.

It's also easier when you produce one device only, paying no attention to variety

So what? Apple made a decision to come out with one device and it has not hurt them at all. This has nothing to do with any argument about design at all.

Again, I'm explaining why it is easier for Apple to offer this build quality and aesthetic. When there are less physical parts that need to fit together, ergonomic fit is discounted and an assumption is made that users would use the phone in a case, it frees Apple from certain design constraints that its competitors still have to work with.

If Apple's design was so horrible then it would have flopped - there would have been an initial rush to buy and then the horrible reviews would start coming in. They didn't.

I am discussing why Apple's design is successful, despite flaws like the exposed antenna, fragile materials, slippery coating and non-ergonomic shape. The interesting part to me is exactly how far will people go to justify a deficient design that they perceive as quality. That's Apple's secret.[/QUOTE]

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[AStranger]

I'm not griping, I'm enumerating the tradeoffs Apple has taken that enable this design. Doing away with these features allows for a more streamlined design and manufacturing process, tighter tolerance is easier and cheaper to achieve without a number of physical parts that need to fit together. So when one admires the iPhone build quality it should be tempered by the tradeoffs Apple took to make this possible.

So this still doesn't say anything about how this is "bad design" - which is your claim.

Again, these are all tradeoffs. Apple still kept the mute, volume and home keys because it deemed them important enough. Other manufacturers also kept the SD card slot and removable battery covers. Every manufacturer decides which tradeoffs to make in their design. Apple kept the least of those features, and as a consequence has an easier time producing better build quality
. The subjective part is whether a user can adapt to the missing features or not.

Agreed. Again, this has nothing to do with it being a "bad design" - which is your claim.

I am discussing why Apple's design is successful, despite flaws like the exposed antenna, fragile materials, slippery coating and non-ergonomic shape. The interesting part to me is exactly how far will people go to justify a deficient design that they perceive as quality. That's Apple's secret.

Fragile materials? I disagree - I don't see how it's all that fragile. I haven't had any problems. Yes, it's glass and it can shatter - but you can break any phone after dropping it.

Slippery - again, something you haven't established.

Non-ergonomic shape - again, not something you've at all established to be true.

You perceive it as being deficient without actually being able to support your case and then you suggest it's amazing that people will go to lengths to ignore this "truth" that you can't actually support with relevant facts or argument.

I find fanboys very irritating too and I've met apple fanboys and seen a number of blackberry fanboys here also. Blind loyalty to any company is stupid. I agree that the antenna issue was a legitimate problem and I think Apple did a half-arsed job in dealing with it - they should have offered a free bumper to all that wanted one. However, that issue was only made as big as it was because it was a HUGE launch and a big media event and so the fact that there was a problem made big news.

I don't have a major problem with the iphone 4 design and the moment a phone that meets my needs comes out I would jump ship in a second.

[sivan]

So this still doesn't say anything about how this is "bad design" - which is your claim.

Fragile materials? I disagree - I don't see how it's all that fragile. I haven't had any problems. Yes, it's glass and it can shatter - but you can break any phone after dropping it.

Well, we agree that glass is fragile. Obviously, anything can break under the right circumstances, but a good design, especially of an expensive handheld product should minimize fragile materials. The iPhone is covered by glass front and back, while other devices employ plastic or metallic backs. Hence the iPhone is more fragile than other devices.

Slippery - again, something you haven't established.

A handheld object should have some texture for a secure grip. The iPhone glass has no texture, and is treated by oleophobic coating. This treatment is known to result in a slippery surface, quoting from the patent for this treatment:

Typically, such hydrophobic and/or oleophobic coatings also reduce friction and create a slippery or slick surface

Surface modification of hydrophobic and/or oleophobic coatings - Patent Application 20100201940

Non-ergonomic shape - again, not something you've at all established to be true.

Ergonomics, and more specifically, hand ergonomics, concern the fit of a tool to the hand. If we agree that the iPhone is handheld tool of some sort, then an ergonomic design would feature a textured, soft and curved surfaces, which increase grip and comfort. In contrast the iPhone 4 is slippery (see above), is made of hard materials, glass and steel (as opposed to rubber-like material or coating found on other devices), and its surface is flat with right angles (with the exception of 4 side corners).

Clearly, despite all these deficiencies, the iPhone appears to be well designed to many people. Why do you think that is?

[AStranger]

Well, we agree that glass is fragile. Obviously, anything can break under the right circumstances, but a good design, especially of an expensive handheld product should minimize fragile materials. The iPhone is covered by glass front and back, while other devices employ plastic or metallic backs. Hence the iPhone is more fragile than other devices.

Glass is fragile in general. The iphone 4's front is made of Gorilla glass though - not just regular glass.

Gizmodo, the Gadget Guide

I don't think fragile is an accurate description of the glass that Apple is using for the iphone 4 screen. For the back - you have somewhat of a point, but I don't know of a single phone that people don't get a jump in their heart if they dropped it from head height.

\A handheld object should have some texture for a secure grip. The iPhone glass has no texture, and is treated by oleophobic coating. This treatment is known to result in a slippery surface, quoting from the patent for this treatment:

Surface modification of hydrophobic and/or oleophobic coatings - Patent Application 20100201940

Oh well.. I don't really find it slippery. Are you saying that was apple's patent and it is used on the iphone?

I haven't had any problems having a secure grip.

Ergonomics, and more specifically, hand ergonomics, concern the fit of a tool to the hand. If we agree that the iPhone is handheld tool of some sort, then an ergonomic design would feature a textured, soft and curved surfaces, which increase grip and comfort. In contrast the iPhone 4 is slippery (see above), is made of hard materials, glass and steel (as opposed to rubber-like material or coating found on other devices), and its surface is flat with right angles (with the exception of 4 side corners).

The problem is, I just don't see how the device is uncomfortable in the hand. I understand you have some fairly good general rules but that doesn't somehow make the iphone uncomfortable.

The iphone is not wide enough to require you to hold it in the palm of your hand and most (if not all) hold it with their fingers - as they would with any phone of that size. The curve on the back would really only be an issue you needed to hold it in the palm of your hand to use for a length of time.

Clearly, despite all these deficiencies, the iPhone appears to be well designed to many people. Why do you think that is?

I think because it is well designed for many people. Many people like the phone and find it comfortable to use - at the very least not uncomfortable.

You think it's just delusion that I find it comfortable in my hand? You think I'm deluded in not finding it slippery in my hand?

[xxxxpradaxxxx]

I'm not familiar with it.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

If you're not familiar with the Storm 1, then how are you qualified to judge the quality of design put forth by RIM?

Surely, if I had to judge Chevrolet's quality, I'd have to be familiar with their models.

Not just one.

Unless of course I was judging the quality of say, the Cruze.

How can you say RIMs quality of products is superior, when you aren't even familiar with the Storm?

This is not about BlackBerry vs iPhone.

I'm really interested in pinpointing exactly how much of the iPhone appeal is due to good design, vs perception of design. The iPhone screams sophisticated design, but how much of it is actually good and worthy of appeal?

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

But, you're missing the point.

The two are completely intertwined and inseperable.

You can't have good design, without good aesthetics.

Good design, is subjective.

Appeal, is subjective.

Aesthetics, is subjective.

There is no golden set standard of design put forth, that is not subjective.

And anyone who says differently is lying.

[sivan]

What's interesting to me is the gap between the impression the design leaves on people vs the reality of tradeoffs. Most reviewers absolutely gushed over it when it came out, and it was interesting to read some later assessments. For example, here's Engadget:

Engadget

If you've read our review of the AT&T
model, you'll know that we think the design and build
of the iPhone 4 is best in class by a longshot. Of
course, editors at Engadget have had a lot more time
to spend with these devices, and some of our opinions have changed slightly over time. For
instance, when we first tested the AT&T model, we
lauded the glass and metal housing of the phone, but
we didn't realize how easily that design made the
phone slip out of your hands... and potentially onto a
hard surface where it can easily break. More than a
few folks at Engadget have smashed the backs of their
phones due to accidental drops. There's no denying
that the iPhone 4 is beautiful to look at, but we highly
recommend a bumper or case -- especially if you tend
to juggle a lot of things at once.

What's interesting here is how Apple elicits adoring reactions to its designs even from experienced reviewers. Eventually reality catches up.

Of all the reviews I read only one was sober and balanced, the one by iLounge:

Reviews: Apple iPhone 4 (16GB/32GB) | iLounge

These guys really get Apple.

So, the issue with Apple's design, is it really functionally or rather commercially innovative?

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[xxxxpradaxxxx]

So, the issue with Apple's design, is it really functionally or rather commercially innovative?

What's the point of this topic?

Because at this point, I think we've reached critical mass.

You can lead a horse to water-

OH, and- There's no use in beating a dead...

Do you see what I did there?

[pilsbury]

This thread is for people who appreciate quality workmanship regarding Apple products. If you don't agree, that's great, to each his own. But you're not going to convince any of us that do, by screaming from the rooftop that Apple's design and material is inferior. That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. While at the same time, it is our opinion that the workmanship, design and materials are superior. We heard you, give it a rest already.

[sivan]

This thread is for people who appreciate quality workmanship regarding Apple products. If you don't agree, that's great, to each his own. But you're not going to convince any of us that do, by screaming from the rooftop that Apple's design and material is inferior. That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. While at the same time, it is our opinion that the workmanship, design and materials are superior. We heard you, give it a rest already.

Who's screaming? Not me.

I tried to have a discussion but I get the point.