07-15-09 12:20 PM
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  1. avt123's Avatar
    It's been said before. It is all a matter of opinion and it depends on the user the iPhone I a perfectly good phone for business, but it's not for everyone.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    07-14-09 10:38 AM
  2. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    When technology websites write reviews on software they are out of the box reviews.
    You can't review the iPhone as a jailbroken the device you have to review it as an out of the box device. Out of the box it doesn't have multitasking and credit to the person that reviewed it for being professional enough to do it that way.
    This goes for phones, computers, etc. Especially if the said thing is illegal by manufacturer.
    Seems like a few of those who replied didn't read what he wrote and replied in defense more than anything.
    His comments on the keyboard weren't about it being bad simply that it's annoying that it corrects everything you type improperly. I use a lot of terms not in the dictionary and am constantly corrected. As for his inaccuracy comment he meant when he types fast on it he tends to miss keys as it is touch screen and easy to do so. When you type on keyboards buttons stick out thus it is easier to type fast.

    The review was done from a business perspective. I completely and fully understand what he means. I owned a couple of websites and still do. On my Bold I could easily make posts in the browser while chatting on BB Messenger with partners and checking emails for replies, etc. However on the iPhone it is very difficult to do so and in all honesty I haven't made a single post on my blog since owning one.
    The review was from a business perspective and in all honesty was a professionally written review which provided problems and the solution to those problems.

    PLEASE READ THE REVIEW. Don't jump to conclusions. If you want a honest read, read it. If you don't want to read about business related iPhone use then don't read it. But don't deter others from reading it by replying without reading it.

    I don't see the review as taking a cheapshot, he isn't a fanboy of any other company, he is someone payed to test software and write honest and informing reviews. Seeing as how that website is ranked 880th on the internet and worth over $31 million dollars this isn't just your average Joe typing away. I guarantee the review has passed through Apple execs hands already. It is something used to better the phone so look at reviews like this as helpful.
    Why do iPhones still sell? Because people like me and you don't need what he is talking about and it doesn't affect us. But it's the same reason that 'more' business users choose blackberry, palm, etc.
    There's no reason to argue the article. Everything he said is non biased and true. It's just waiting for apple to fix it. If they truly have a problem with people jailbreaking their phones they would fix it.
    One of the best posts I have read. Period. Balanced and concise. Details the reasons why I crave the iPhone, but can't justify getting one yet.
    07-14-09 11:58 AM
  3. FTWrath's Avatar
    One of the best posts I have read. Period. Balanced and concise. Details the reasons why I crave the iPhone, but can't justify getting one yet.
    Thank you for actually reading. I haven't taken a second to read the other replied because I know already they are just arguements about things not even in the article.

    Don't give Jailbreak as an alternative because this is a review article and as a professional technology website they review products as out of the box. If he would give jailbreaking as an alternative I guarantee you Apple wouldn't be sending engadget free products to review anymore.
    Stop arguing, you;re wasting your time.

    You're all trying to give solutions to problems which only Apple can fix.
    Instead of defending their disregard for multitasking, mms, connection, email, etc. agree with him, let apple know you want this to be fixed and maybe with the next device or next OS release it WILL BE FIXED.
    You're so far into the pockets of apple all you do is defend this thing to death instead of wanting and asking for solutions. That's all this article did, give problems and give solutions or point of problems and in the case where there wasn't a solution, ask for one.
    I work in a grocery store and my apple doesn't have service in it whereas my bold never had problems. That's a phone issue, not a provider issue. My co-worker went to nyc, in time square he had no service, his friend with a different phone on att had service. Once again, phone not service provider.

    Lolstorm, you're missing the point and haven't read the article correctly.
    When you decide to write blogs, reviews, talk on Mirc to employees and co-workers, and do other things he listed then and only then (using your logic) can you label yourself as an individual user (sarcasm). Of course it was written for business users. Though he may not work for Microsoft or Bank of America he is still a business user on one of the biggest websites in the world.
    Would you label Kevin, the owner of crackberry.com (to my knowledge) a business user? To put this in perspective for you, crackberry.com is ranked 2,072 as of today out of all websites on the internet. engadget is ranked 880. I think that answers that. Also the article cleary says 'off the job market' not 'off the living room floor.'
    Please quit replying with ignorant remarks. If you have an opinion on something other than what is mentioned in this article make your own topic and share it and argue all you want. Keep this one on topic.
    07-14-09 01:24 PM
  4. lolstorm148's Avatar
    Thank you for actually reading. I haven't taken a second to read the other replied because I know already they are just arguements about things not even in the article.

    Don't give Jailbreak as an alternative because this is a review article and as a professional technology website they review products as out of the box. If he would give jailbreaking as an alternative I guarantee you Apple wouldn't be sending engadget free products to review anymore.
    Stop arguing, you;re wasting your time.

    You're all trying to give solutions to problems which only Apple can fix.
    Instead of defending their disregard for multitasking, mms, connection, email, etc. agree with him, let apple know you want this to be fixed and maybe with the next device or next OS release it WILL BE FIXED.
    You're so far into the pockets of apple all you do is defend this thing to death instead of wanting and asking for solutions. That's all this article did, give problems and give solutions or point of problems and in the case where there wasn't a solution, ask for one.
    I work in a grocery store and my apple doesn't have service in it whereas my bold never had problems. That's a phone issue, not a provider issue. My co-worker went to nyc, in time square he had no service, his friend with a different phone on att had service. Once again, phone not service provider.

    Lolstorm, you're missing the point and haven't read the article correctly.
    When you decide to write blogs, reviews, talk on Mirc to employees and co-workers, and do other things he listed then and only then (using your logic) can you label yourself as an individual user (sarcasm). Of course it was written for business users. Though he may not work for Microsoft or Bank of America he is still a business user on one of the biggest websites in the world.
    Would you label Kevin, the owner of crackberry.com (to my knowledge) a business user? To put this in perspective for you, crackberry.com is ranked 2,072 as of today out of all websites on the internet. engadget is ranked 880. I think that answers that. Also the article cleary says 'off the job market' not 'off the living room floor.'
    Please quit replying with ignorant remarks. If you have an opinion on something other than what is mentioned in this article make your own topic and share it and argue all you want. Keep this one on topic.
    Umm you missed the boat. We're discussing a different article, posted a page back or so. My points still stand. Not every business user is a corporate user. In fact the majority of 'business users' are not corporate users, nor do they all live in NYC. I mean do we have to start naming people that use the iPhone to prove that it's being used in the business world? EIC of Maximum PC, Will Smith uses an iPhone. So does Norman Chan another editor. Check out every editor of every Mac magazine out there and the majority of their authors... they all use the iPhone. Pretty sure those companies are more lucrative then Engadget or Crackberry.

    I see the iPhone in the hands of business users every day. Doesn't mean it doesn't have problems, but blindly stating that the iPhone isn't cut out for the business sector is an ignorant statement. What's the #1 smartphone used in major metropolitan hospitals? The iPhone. Why? Because of it's support apps. Does this mean it will work for 'all sectors'? Of course not. I can see why it wouldn't work for a law firm and why it may not work in financials, yet my investment broker and my accountant both use iPhones .. hrmm, yeah nobody uses the iPhone professionally. I bet nobody at Apple uses one. They all have secret blackberry's right? Oh wait, I bet they use WinMo. Even Bill Gates wife is quoted as having said she want's an iPhone but he won't let Apple devices inside his house.

    *roll*
    07-14-09 04:58 PM
  5. FTWrath's Avatar
    Like I said I didn't bother reading all replies. As far as I know a rule of any forum is not to hijack threads so posting another off the point article shouldn't happen anyways.
    He gave a review from his standpoint and from his standpoint and his business perspective it doesn't work. I've written reviews before and I wrote them from my perspective and standpoint.
    Look at it this way; does a family of 6 write a good review on my 07 Mitsubishi Eclipse? Probably yes on the performance aspect, as he did, but on the usability aspect of it all probably not.
    Granted it's a great car and I've heard nothing but good things from other owners as well, from a family standpoint it 'doesn't work.'
    Just like his review. He's also a iPhone driver (metaphorically speaking) but from his standpoint the iPhone doesn't drive his business, metaphorically speaking.
    Yes it does meet some business owners needs but you can't sit there and tell me that a business user that 'needs' to multitask such as him can function on it. Don't give me the jailbreak stuff either because that's a software review website and they review out of the box equipment. **** I love my iPhone but when I took it out of the box I would have traded it back for my Bold ANYDAY. The Bold functions better out of the box than Iphone but when Jailbroken the iPhone is better hands down.
    07-14-09 06:07 PM
  6. xxxxpradaxxxx's Avatar
    Don't get your knickers in a bunch.

    If it bothers you that much have the mods clean it up, or lock it.

    Simple, easy, just do it.
    07-14-09 06:56 PM
  7. FTWrath's Avatar
    It doesn't bother me at all. No where did I say that. I'm just amazed by how you all become so defensive every time a valid article or argument is posted that points on real flaws of the phone. Accept them and ask for a fix. That guy did you all a favor, one of the biggest websites on the internet posting a negative review will surely grab the attention of Apple execs and I wouldn't be surprised if those issues are fixed in the next update or the next phone. The more people that disagree the better, so stop defending it.
    07-14-09 08:10 PM
  8. slinky#CB's Avatar
    It doesn't bother me at all. No where did I say that. I'm just amazed by how you all become so defensive every time a valid article or argument is posted that points on real flaws of the phone. Accept them and ask for a fix. That guy did you all a favor, one of the biggest websites on the internet posting a negative review will surely grab the attention of Apple execs and I wouldn't be surprised if those issues are fixed in the next update or the next phone. The more people that disagree the better, so stop defending it.
    I couldn't agree more with this sentiment. I can understand that when people spend good money on a product they like, they really don't want to hear about the flaws. Like yourself, I don't like hearing about them but I DO want them to be vocalized loud and strong so these companies will fix them instead of not bothering because the foolish blind sheep are pretending not to care.

    The iPhone certainly is a lot of fun to use but it definitely feels like a cripple in comparison to a jailbroken iPhone. I was actually hoping the Pre hardware would be better so it would kick Apple in the face and force it to just concede the obvious and let users make it the best phone it could be. Defending it and then rationalizing that jailbreaking has no negative consequences is more rationalizing we don't need either.
    07-15-09 01:56 AM
  9. xxxxpradaxxxx's Avatar
    The same can be said about that turd RIM expelled about 9 months ago.

    Complain about that. Maybe you'll actually get a valid OS.

    But even if it does- it'll be the same old archaic OS that looks like it's from the 80's.

    (and just in case you're not sure about which turd I'm referring to, it's the Storm.)

    You can quote engadget all you like.

    But I can quote Pogue too- the one who named the blackberry storm, the blackberry dud.

    Oh and btw, he points out valid arguments too.

    So it goes both ways.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Last edited by xxxxpradaxxxx; 07-15-09 at 03:02 AM.
    07-15-09 02:56 AM
  10. FTWrath's Avatar
    What in the **** are you talking about? Where did blackberry storm and rim come into play here? I don't even have verizon lol.
    I'm an iPhone user and so is the kid that happens to agree.
    You're so far in denial it's ridiculous. There's no reason to quote engadget and I haven't don't so yet, simply referred to points made. I don't have to read the article to know what's wrong with the phone and at the same time I don't have to be in denial to be happy using it. I love the phone but there are a lot of things wrong out of the box. Are we so wrong to pay for a device and not want things to get fixed/added?
    If you don't agree that there is anything that needs fixing then simply don't post here.
    07-15-09 03:01 AM
  11. xxxxpradaxxxx's Avatar
    Yea. Definitely in denial.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    07-15-09 03:03 AM
  12. FTWrath's Avatar
    Lol you are but it's ok because you prob jailbroke yours like I did which fixes most of the problems. But for users out there who don't jailbreak because they don't want to/know of it/know how to these are still issues. You can't fix problems without bringing attention to them.
    Posted from my imaginary storm.
    07-15-09 03:36 AM
  13. Nazarius's Avatar
    Apple fans are nothing if not loyal. They fought just as hard when the 3G was out and they said the same things.

    "Copy n Paste isn't a big deal", "MMS, who wants to send pictures"

    They refuse to point out flaws for what reason I don't know. When flaws are pointed out they defend them to the death with excuses and "just jailbreak it"



    The iPhone is working as intended and has no problems what so ever. Everyone sell your other phones and buy an iPhone...


    See us "Windows" users point out the flaws and they put out fixes. It's that simple........ or you could wait 2 years like you did to get MMS... lol

    Nevermind.. it's useless to even type about the subject.
    07-15-09 07:47 AM
  14. stuaw11's Avatar
    Apple fans are nothing if not loyal. They fought just as hard when the 3G was out and they said the same things.

    "Copy n Paste isn't a big deal", "MMS, who wants to send pictures"

    They refuse to point out flaws for what reason I don't know. When flaws are pointed out they defend them to the death with excuses and "just jailbreak it"



    The iPhone is working as intended and has no problems what so ever. Everyone sell your other phones and buy an iPhone...


    See us "Windows" users point out the flaws and they put out fixes. It's that simple........ or you could wait 2 years like you did to get MMS... lol

    Nevermind.. it's useless to even type about the subject.
    Yeh but that statement goes for lots of mobile OSs too. BB users say install a beta OS, WM is install a custom ROM. Storm users defend their device to the death but then 95%+ of them here are running some custom/beta OS because stock is too buggy. WM users defend their devices to the death on how powerful they are, but have to hack the bejesus out of them to get it working the way they want. I cant tell you how many hours spent on xda downloading 3rd party apps, tweaks, and customizations over my 4-5 years with WM. ITs the same thing for every platform, so saying how iphone users are the only defend to the death fanboys is simply incorrect.

    Sure its a little different that your core functionality isnt changing a ton using ROMs or beta OSs, but you arent getting the best experience without doing so. Ive owned all these platforms and on WM a custom ROM is a must pretty much, and on BB beta OSs just run a lot faster and add features/fix bugs. I personally wouldnt run stock on either type of device. If they didnt improve the experience, then custom ROMs and beta OSs wouldnt be so popular and on 90% of respective forum users devices (PPCgeeks/xda and here).

    This can be argued to death but it doesnt only go for hacking iphones. There's no perfect OS out of the box that cant benefit from tweaking/hacking to get more functionality. The fact is BB and WM are archaic right now compared to Apple, Palm, and Google's offerings. Ill take innovation with flaws any day over incremental changes to a 5+ year old OS where nothing major has changed.

    And just as much as jailbreaking, ROMs and beta OSs technically void your warranty too from a legal standpoint, so thats such a moot argument. All 3 platforms can be reset back to stock if you ever have to service the device, so again pointless to claim voiding warranty on the jailbreaking issue.

    What I find the MOST interesting here is people's need to come into another subforum and bash a phone. If you dont like it, great move on, not every phone is for everyone. But its childish to come in other phone subforums and post every negative article you can find, or only bash someone else's choice in device. No one who currently owns the phone particularly cares what you or some cheesy blog says about the phone if we like it. If we didnt like our choice in device we wouldnt be here in the first place, so I dont see the inherent need to constantly bash anyone's choice in device. If you have nothing nice to say then stick to your own platforms sections...we all know the pros and cons of the iphone, and we mostly all know the pros and cons of BB here too, and some WM and other platforms. But we arent in those subforums bashing away on the devices....
    Last edited by stuaw11; 07-15-09 at 10:03 AM.
    07-15-09 09:35 AM
  15. avt123's Avatar
    Yeh but that statement goes for lots of mobile OSs too. BB users say install a beta OS, WM is install a custom ROM. Storm users defend their device to the death but then 95%+ of them here are running some custom/beta OS because stock is too buggy. WM users defend their devices to the death on how powerful they are, but have to hack the bejesus out of them to get it working the way they want. I cant tell you how many hours spent on xda downloading 3rd party apps, tweaks, and customizations over my 4-5 years with WM. ITs the same thing for every platform, so saying how iphone users are the only defend to the death fanboys is simply incorrect.

    Sure its a little different that your core functionality isnt changing a ton using ROMs or beta OSs, but you arent getting the best experience without doing so. Ive owned all these platforms and on WM a custom ROM is a must pretty much, and on BB beta OSs just run a lot faster and add features/fix bugs. I personally wouldnt run stock on either type of device. If they didnt improve the experience, then custom ROMs and beta OSs wouldnt be so popular and on 90% of respective forum users devices (PPCgeeks/xda and here).

    This can be argued to death but it doesnt only go for hacking iphones. There's no perfect OS out of the box that cant benefit from tweaking/hacking to get more functionality. The fact is BB and WM are archaic right now compared to Apple, Palm, and Google's offerings. Ill take innovation with flaws any day over incremental changes to a 5+ year old OS where nothing major has changed.

    And just as much as jailbreaking, ROMs and beta OSs technically void your warranty too from a legal standpoint, so thats such a moot argument. All 3 platforms can be reset back to stock if you ever have to service the device, so again pointless to claim voiding warranty on the jailbreaking issue.

    What I find the MOST interesting here is people's need to come into another subforum and bash a phone. If you dont like it, great move on, not every phone is for everyone. But its childish to come in other phone subforums and post every negative article you can find, or only bash someone else's choice in device. No one who currently owns the phone particularly cares what you or some cheesy blog says about the phone if we like it. If we didnt like our choice in device we wouldnt be here in the first place, so I dont see the inherent need to constantly bash anyone's choice in device. If you have nothing nice to say then stick to your own platforms sections...
    I completely agree. I love how people only think that Apple users defend their products to the death, while other device users don't. Like you said, BB users are always downloading g beta OSs and WM users download custom ROMS all the time. NO device is perfect out of the box, no matter how big of a fanboy you are you will realize it.

    Most iPhone users just happen to be very satisfied with their device. Yes they are upset about the flaws, but they are still happy overall, and if they need to they will jailbreak. I have yet to jailbreak my 3GS ( had the 3G and jailbroke it) because I am overall happy and don't really see the need to do it as of right now. I do believe that the device should be able to multitask EVERY app, but right now I'm happy enough with the speed that it doesn't even bother me. The device should have been able to MMS a long tome ago, I never complained because I send an MMS once a year.

    The iPhone has the number one rating in consumer satisfaction. Yes people are complaining about the device, but obviously enough users are happy with it.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Last edited by avt123; 07-15-09 at 10:27 AM.
    07-15-09 10:15 AM
  16. stuaw11's Avatar
    Of course, look at the start of this very thread. It was predicated on an obvious trolling post "Thank you Engadget Article: Why the iphone is not for serious usage (aka why it sucks)." Made by none else but, NOT AN IPHONE USER. Shocker I know...

    I dont see why some people are so insecure with their devices that they have to intentionally go bash someone else's

    There's plenty of flaws in BB but I dont go running around trolling the other subforums posting negative things. Thats simply childish immature behavior.

    Call itwhat you want to call it but Apple is innovating, yes with bumps along the way, but RIM and Microsoft are sitting on their hands right now. And EVERYONE else is trying to imitate- Web OS, Android, etc. That OBVIOUSLY means something.

    Without the iphone there would more than likely be no- Storm, G1/G2/Hero or may even Android at all, Pre/Web OS, WM7 coming out. Notice how ALL of them take some kind of (or many) iphone nuance.... Sorry but like it or not Apple truly changed the game as we know it driving innovation of other companies to compete.

    If you honestly think BB OS 5 or WM 6.5 will be perfect and not still missing key desired elements then youre more than delusional. So save the "iphone is missing x,y,z" remarks. Youre phone will still be missing key elements too that "people desire." So the iphone argument doesnt hold weight until you get some kind of major OS overhaul which isnt happening anytime soon.

    Again Ill take someone at least trying to improve their product and innovate, which we all know there will be bumps and things missing needing fixing, then stale old with the same problems and flaws for years and years that are never fixed.
    Last edited by stuaw11; 07-15-09 at 10:34 AM.
    07-15-09 10:20 AM
  17. avt123's Avatar
    Of course, look at the start of this very thread. It was predicated on an obvious trolling post "Thank you Engadget Article: Why the iphone is not for serious usage (aka why it sucks)." Made by none else but, NOT AN IPHONE USER. Shocker I know...

    I dont see why some people are so insecure with their devices that they have to intentionally go bash someone else's

    There's plenty of flaws in BB but I dont go running around trolling the other subforums posting negative things. Thats simply childish immature behavior.

    Call itwhat you want to call it but Apple is innovating, yes with bumps along the way, but RIM and Microsoft are sitting on their hands right now. And EVERYONE else is trying to imitate- Web OS, Android, etc. That OBVIOUSLY means something.

    Without the iphone there would more than likely be no- Storm, G1/G2/Hero or may even Android at all, Pre/Web OS, WM7 coming out. Notice how ALL of them take some kind of (or many) iphone nuance.... Sorry but like it or not Apple truly changed the game as we know it driving innovation of other companies to compete.

    Theyve been in the game total how long? Comapred to how many years companies like Microsoft, RIM, and Palm have? There will be bumps in the road but theres nothing inherently wrong with the iphone.
    Again, I completely agree. We are goingto be labeled Apple fanboys for thinking this way! Say one positive thing about Apple and that's what usually happens. Say one positive thing about RIM and you're just conforming with everyone else.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    07-15-09 10:32 AM
  18. slinky#CB's Avatar
    I completely agree. I love how people only think that Apple users defend their products to the death, while other device users don't. Like you said, BB users are always downloading g beta OSs and WM users download custom ROMS all the time. NO device is perfect out of the box, no matter how big of a fanboy you are you will realize it.

    Most iPhone users just happen to be very satisfied with their device. Yes they are upset about the flaws, but they are still happy overall, and if they need to they will jailbreak. I have yet to jailbreak my 3GS ( had the 3G and jailbroke it) because I am overall happy and don't really see the need to do it as of right now.....

    The iPhone has the number one rating in consumer satisfaction. Yes people are complaining about the device, but obviously enough users are happy with it.
    Blackberry doesn't market to people's emotions. It's about business, efficiency, those are the facts. Apple goes for the heart and soul with their marketing and they are the kind of company that has far more vigilant, blind followers than others. I know - I used to be one of the faithful back in the day when they went from nubus slots to the standard PCI. They were the smaller, innovative company that loves its customers. Today they are mostly flash, marketing, and seek to extract every dime from their customers possible. Their superior marketing puts this warm friendly face that wins over many people who don't or can't look beyond the surface of their cute pet iMac or personal iPhone.

    Unfortunately the 3GS has serious battery life problems due to Steve Jobs' obsession with cloud computing. The 3GS always thinks it is connected to a network or should continue trying to connect because, if you aren't connected, Stevie knows you SHOULD have been connected and its your fault. What do they do? Tell you that battery life can be saved by turning off the 3G radio, location services and everything else you bought the iPhone for. It desperately needs jailbreaking for certain things (e.g. a damn today screen for one glance look at your appointments) and it would be much more useful for business.

    No, the phone is far from worthless for business but it does have some serious drawbacks if you do certain tasks, e.g. document and file use and organization. There is no way I'd say that any corporate user who lives on email should think he'll be efficient with this device over a Blackberry. It's not designed for that purpose. The flip side is that, if you make the decisions and can live with less efficiency, it's definitely more fun to use and that's not to be understated. It's a choice every user has to make. I'm still up in the air about the cost benefit, that's all. And hopefully we can all be civil in discussing our opinions and experiences.
    07-15-09 11:51 AM
  19. FTWrath's Avatar
    You're not an Apple fanboy. I own the device as well. However when I owned a BlackBerry Bold I was constantly surfing through those BB forums. People always posted criticizing the phone for browser,etc and other agreed and asked for a fix.
    I loaded betas even though my device ran amazingly (check my topic history) because I wanted to see what's new, what's better, not because I had problems. The iPhone is an amazing device, not out of the box though. I don't think one app I currently run I ran before I jailbroke it. Besides calculator/calendar I loaded all other apps I use after jailbreaking. That's all we're talking about here, the device out of the box and how it needs fixes, not for my sake but for the sake of new users and non-jailbreak users. There's no reason to keep defending these issues. It needs fixing, own up to it.
    BB Users are constantly pointing out flaws and asking for fixes, check out any of the discussion boards above. They still consider themselves fanboys, they just want to better their product. We asked for a better media player and skin for it and RIM delivered in the 5.0 OS. They gave us google gears support with inline streaming, more customization features, message encryption, etc.
    If you point out things that are wrong, which this article did for us, they will more than likely be fixed.
    Him writing that article was the equivalent of 100,000 of us average joes complaining about the same issues simply because of the power behind that website to sway potential buyers.
    07-15-09 12:09 PM
  20. Duvi's Avatar
    Points made, thread closed.
    07-15-09 12:20 PM
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