02-11-12 01:04 AM
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  1. xandermac's Avatar
    Dude, you're confused, made doesn't mean built, made is where the product is assembled, are you saying RIM doesn't have a factory in Mexico or Hungary? Lol

    Nothing to come out. They're not lying about anything.
    Yeah, you're right. No harm done in RIMs supply chain. "Made in China" means that no children were hurt making this fine Mexican product for RIM. If I were RIM I'd ask for the china stamp be removed entirely considering its meaningless.


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    Skier1960 likes this.
    02-09-12 01:55 PM
  2. i7guy's Avatar
    ^^^^^ Are you mad at apple for this fiasco?
    02-09-12 01:57 PM
  3. xandermac's Avatar
    ^^^^^ Are you mad at apple for this fiasco?
    Not mad in the least. I love the smell of Chinese kids on my phone. My wallpaper is a Chinese worker slaving away Yours should be too.


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    Skier1960 likes this.
    02-09-12 02:00 PM
  4. Blackberry_boffin's Avatar
    Excellent. Did you dump your blackberry also? The RIM supply chain is rooted in china, but I'm sure you know that? RIM also contribute to 7 million death/murders in the Congo by their continued use of conflict mineral, again, I'm sure you know that. You wouldn't just blindly sign a petition without researching the matter I'm sure. I'm glad you're a man of principal.

    RIMs supply chain is deeply embedded in china. Everything in the article (and the Bloomberg article it links to) is verifiable.

    RIM publish no corporate responsibility report, no supply chain responsibility guidelines, they don't audit their supply chain or have a human rights code of conduct. Only Apple does.

    Do You Know Who Manufactured Your Blackberry? - Forbes

    And of course all your accessories.

    Click to view quoted image


    Eagerly awaiting your announcement that you're becoming Amish.


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    I bet you were panting after that 'great' response.
    02-09-12 02:15 PM
  5. avt123's Avatar
    Foxcom is a big company, yet the problems seem to be where they build apple's products.

    RIM hasn't been acused of anything yet.
    That wasn't my point. And we don't know if other companies are just as bad or worse.

    But my point was still that this is not something that Apple can settle on their own. The Chinese government needs to step up and demand better policies for their citizens.

    I do agree Apple should do something (and it seems like they are or are going to), but like I said, this is much bigger than Apple.
    Skier1960 likes this.
    02-09-12 03:06 PM
  6. xandermac's Avatar
    Why do they need better policy at Foxconn?

    Workplace deaths in the United States 35 deaths per million.

    Workplace deaths at Foxconn 4 deaths per million.

    Suicide rates.

    18 per million. Foxconn
    223 per million. China
    111 per million. USA

    They're doing better than us with workplace safety!


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    Skier1960 and pri79269 like this.
    02-09-12 03:12 PM
  7. Skier1960's Avatar
    That wasn't my point. And we don't know if other companies are just as bad or worse.

    But my point was still that this is not something that Apple can settle on their own. The Chinese government needs to step up and demand better policies for their citizens.

    I do agree Apple should do something (and it seems like they are or are going to), but like I said, this is much bigger than Apple.
    Ok I lied I'm back on this thread (OCD). Now that's a very valid point. The only thing is that "The Chinese government needs to step up and demand better policies for their citizens" as we all know will not happen any time soon. The Chinese government is as corrupt as any Regime in the world..
    avt123 likes this.
    02-09-12 03:15 PM
  8. avt123's Avatar
    Ok I lied I'm back on this thread (OCD). Now that's a very valid point. The only thing is that "The Chinese government needs to step up and demand better policies for their citizens" as we all know will not happen any time soon. The Chinese government is as corrupt as any Regime in the world..
    Exactly. If your government barely/doesn't give(s) a damn you have bigger problems.
    02-09-12 03:22 PM
  9. Skier1960's Avatar
    Dude, you're confused, made doesn't mean built, made is where the product is assembled, are you saying RIM doesn't have a factory in Mexico or Hungary? Lol

    Nothing to come out. They're not lying about anything.
    HE'S CONFUSED???? Made-built,Cycle-Cycling,TV-Television,Plant-Factory,Hockey-Ice Hockey,Boxing-Sweet Science Etc Etc...
    02-09-12 03:31 PM
  10. i7guy's Avatar
    Why do they need better policy at Foxconn?

    Workplace deaths in the United States 35 deaths per million.

    Workplace deaths at Foxconn 4 deaths per million.

    Suicide rates.

    18 per million. Foxconn
    223 per million. China
    111 per million. USA

    They're doing better than us with workplace safety!


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    What are the real numbers not the rates? Rates mean nothing.
    02-09-12 03:39 PM
  11. xandermac's Avatar
    What are the real numbers not the rates? Rates mean nothing.
    Nothing? Really? Way to trivialize life.

    2011.

    Foxconn had 1 million workers. (1.2 actually but for rounding sake. The rates are actually lower/better than I stated)

    18 suicides.
    4 deaths.

    Far far lower than the Chinese or American average (and probably Canada considering its Canada )


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    Last edited by xandermac; 02-09-12 at 03:52 PM.
    app_Developer likes this.
    02-09-12 03:47 PM
  12. dandbj13's Avatar
    Sorry if this has been covered, but since when does Made in Mexico equal the high, moral labor standards of first-world countries? Isn't Mexico the place so corrupt and depressing that their own people load up in trucks and sneak across the borders for better jobs like picking berries in fields for slave wages here in the states?

    Also, how many people actually die working in a Chinese factory as opposed to the thousands dying as a direct result of conflict minerals?

    Finally, why are almost all of these pro-labor, anti-Apple posts being typed on machines made in those very same factories? I can't figure out if I'm supposed to isolate China from the rest of the world, or just eliminate Apple from China so that RIM and other competitors can have more use of the factories and cheap Chinese labor.
    02-09-12 05:26 PM
  13. Skier1960's Avatar
    Sorry if this has been covered, but since when does Made in Mexico equal the high, moral labor standards of first-world countries? Isn't Mexico the place so corrupt and depressing that their own people load up in trucks and sneak across the borders for better jobs like picking berries in fields for slave wages here in the states?

    Also, how many people actually die working in a Chinese factory as opposed to the thousands dying as a direct result of conflict minerals?

    Finally, why are almost all of these pro-labor, anti-Apple posts being typed on machines made in those very same factories? I can't figure out if I'm supposed to isolate China from the rest of the world, or just eliminate Apple from China so that RIM and other competitors can have more use of the factories and cheap Chinese labor.
    You said it all for me Friend. Mexico,China,Indonesia,India etc etc.
    02-09-12 05:36 PM
  14. Rootbrian's Avatar
    Meh, I'll be keeping my blackberry. Just about everything in walmart is made in china except the food and my fujitsu tablet pc. Probably even your power tools and car parts are also made in china, even batteries for all our stuff, including all but a few makes/models of our computers/tablets are made in china.
    02-09-12 05:39 PM
  15. TheScionicMan's Avatar
    Defend them if you will. I can't quietly tolerate their deceit.
    LOL, that's a good one...
    dodger_moore likes this.
    02-09-12 06:01 PM
  16. dodger_moore's Avatar
    Look at the label on most things you buy, "Made in China". Almost everything made in China is from a sweat shop, and I say almost but I think it would be safe to say all... China IS a sweat shop. Go look in your closet and work shops etc.. Then look in the mirror. Most manufacturers are guilty of this practice, it's sad but true. Did I mention Walmart, Target,Best Buy etc etc... Apple gets the ink because their the big bad kid on the block..

    Interesting day for naive people...
    Lol! I couldn't have said it better myself

    Did you just make all that nonsense up on the spot? I wonder what experience you have of manufacturing in China to back your comment up.

    I work (like many) in an industry that has the majority of its products made in China. Conditions are far from 'sweatshop'. Not saying that Foxconn isn't a foul place to work but why not wind your neck in with the sweeping categorisations.
    02-09-12 06:05 PM
  17. app_Developer's Avatar
    Foxconn had 1 million workers. (1.2 actually but for rounding sake. The rates are actually lower/better than I stated)

    18 suicides.
    4 deaths.

    Far far lower than the Chinese or American average (and probably Canada considering its Canada )
    This is compared to about 220 suicides per million in China, and 112 suicides per million in Canada in 2008:

    Suicides and suicide rate, by sex and by age group

    This is not to trivialize the tragedy of suicide, but just to put this all in perspective.

    Apple's success no doubt attracts more scrutiny (a good thing in my opinion), and I hope Apple will push Foxconn to do more for its workers. But I can't understand the lack of perspective in comparing Foxconn to China as a whole or the world as a whole.
    02-09-12 06:24 PM
  18. dodger_moore's Avatar
    This is compared to about 220 suicides per million in China, and 112 suicides per million in Canada in 2008:

    Suicides and suicide rate, by sex and by age group

    This is not to trivialize the tragedy of suicide, but just to put this all in perspective.

    Apple's success no doubt attracts more scrutiny (a good thing in my opinion), and I hope Apple will push Foxconn to do more for its workers. But I can't understand the lack of perspective in comparing Foxconn to China as a whole or the world as a whole.
    I could be wrong but I thought the point was they committed suicide and died while at work - because of work?

    So some of those 220 per million Chinese that killed themselves could have been made up of Foxconn employees who killed themselves while not on the premises and thusly not counted in the Foxconn stats?
    02-09-12 06:30 PM
  19. Flexin's Avatar
    The innards of my "made in mexico" 9700.

    Click to view quoted image


    Really? 2 for 2. This kind of deceit really is troubling. Especially when the users "truly" care about human rights and want to believe they're supporting a company that is making a difference.


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    Deceit? Some parts were made in China.

    And I people are going after Apple. Apple is the top dog right now so they are the one to mention. Using their name gets the word out. Doing so might change things there. Thats not a bad thing.

    James
    02-09-12 06:38 PM
  20. xandermac's Avatar
    Deceit? Some parts were made in China.

    And I people are going after Apple. Apple is the top dog right now so they are the one to mention. Using their name gets the word out. Doing so might change things there. Thats not a bad thing.

    James
    It would appear the entire thing is made in china. Not a single label from anywhere else.


    Sent from my iPhone4s using Tapatalk
    02-09-12 06:40 PM
  21. app_Developer's Avatar
    I could be wrong but I thought the point was they committed suicide and died while at work - because of work?

    So some of those 220 per million Chinese that killed themselves could have been made up of Foxconn employees who killed themselves while not on the premises and thusly not counted in the Foxconn stats?
    Most Foxconn employees, like workers in most of those special economic zones, live at work. They can't freely move back and forth to their homes. This is normal for most of the high tech manufacturing zones.
    02-09-12 06:44 PM
  22. dodger_moore's Avatar
    Most Foxconn employees, like workers in most of those special economic zones, live at work. They can't freely move back and forth to their homes. This is normal for most of the high tech manufacturing zones.
    And when they finally do get some leave the thought of going back to work could be enough to tip them over the edge. Just a hunch but I think there could be a Venn Diagram thing going on here. I can't imagine not being freely able to move back and forth between your home and work is good for the soul.

    EDIT: Or here's a different yet still grim way to look at it: The Independent reported on a survey that found people can suffer an increased risk of suicide whilst on anti-depressants. The theory (anecdotal among NHS doctors) is because the 'liberation' of the drugs enables them to get 'organised' and to a place of perspective required to commit the act. Maybe going home from the factory could do that.
    Last edited by dodger_moore; 02-09-12 at 06:54 PM.
    02-09-12 06:47 PM
  23. kbz1960's Avatar
    Most Foxconn employees, like workers in most of those special economic zones, live at work. They can't freely move back and forth to their homes. This is normal for most of the high tech manufacturing zones.
    Sounds like slaves to me.
    02-09-12 06:49 PM
  24. app_Developer's Avatar
    Sounds like slaves to me.
    Well, they are free to quit, which negates the primary definition of slavery. And they do actually apply voluntarily for the work permits to get these jobs (there is tremendous demand for this because the wages are quite high comparatively).

    Now, you could say that if they quit, their families will suffer financially. But then again, isn't that true for most of us around the world who have mortgages and other bills to pay?

    But the point is, none of this is new. This has been part of China's economic strategy for at least 30 years that I'm aware of, possibly longer. Long before Apple ever had a contract with Foxconn. This is the engine that China created to make themselves an economic superpower.

    Everything we see now with the emergence of the Chinese middle class, and Chinese ownership of so much European and American debt, has been built on their 30 years of these so-called special economic zones.
    02-09-12 06:57 PM
  25. kbz1960's Avatar
    Well, they are free to quit, which negates the primary definition of slavery. And they do actually apply voluntarily for the work permits to get these jobs (there is tremendous demand for this because the wages are quite high comparatively).

    Now, you could say that if they quit, their families will suffer financially. But then again, isn't that true for most of us around the world who have mortgages and other bills to pay?

    But the point is, none of this is new. This has been part of China's economic strategy for at least 30 years that I'm aware of, possibly longer. Long before Apple ever had a contract with Foxconn. This is the engine that China created to make themselves an economic superpower.

    Everything we see now with the emergence of the Chinese middle class, and Chinese ownership of so much European and American debt, has been built on their 30 years of these so-called special economic zones.
    I agree. With so many people jobs have to be few and far between. Working in a sweat shop is probably better than starving in the streets.
    02-09-12 07:02 PM
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