11-07-14 01:42 PM
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  1. walt63's Avatar
    That is totally insufficient for our security needs as a bank, though. I'm not going to put your debit card number out on the Internet and say it's OK because you have a PIN.



    No, merchants and banks cannot put on a surcharge on this. That violates several existing agreements and laws in many states and countries.

    The merchant pays a transaction fee already for every credit card transaction. The issuing bank gets a portion of that, and will pay Apple a portion of that portion.
    Who said anything about the internet? Nothing is on the internet. The PIN is stored on the bank/merchant side just as a debit card works right now. PIN security is nothing new.

    So to try to understand your example:
    I pay $100 to Target for products using a Visa credit card stored on Apple Pay...Target pays the surcharge (4% = $4) for me using a credit card to Visa. Then Visa pays half of that surcharge ($2) to Apple.

    Apple gets $2/$100 just for providing the portal and accessibility. So Apple created this new way to simply get money out of it. I'm not hating on it...it's a business. But just saying.
    09-13-14 01:42 PM
  2. app_Developer's Avatar
    Who said anything about the internet? Nothing is on the internet. The PIN is stored on the bank/merchant side just as a debit card works right now. PIN security is nothing new.

    I'm not talking about protecting the PIN. I'm talking about protecting the PAN itself. The PIN is not sufficient protection to say we can be careless with the PAN. The closed loop systems have much lower risk, and don't worry about this as much as we have to.


    So to try to understand your example:
    I pay $100 to Target for products using a Visa credit card stored on Apple Pay...Target pays the surcharge (4% = $4) for me using a credit card to Visa. Then Visa pays half of that surcharge ($2) to Apple.

    Apple gets $2/$100 just for providing the portable and accessibility. So Apple created this new way to simply get money out of it. I'm not hating on it...it's a business. But just saying.
    You forgot the banks in your example (we need to be paid, too! ), but yes you have the basic idea.

    In addition to the convenient payment method, though, Apple will also reduce the risk to merchants and banks, which is worth money. Apple will be paid for all of that.

    BTW, they also get paid for removing the slow, archaic phone companies out of the equation. I cannot overemphasize how critical that is for future innovation in payments. BlackBerry users should understand this as well as anyone as we wait for carriers to approve every OS update and choose which phones they feel like carrying, etc.

    Phone carriers are an enormous barrier to innovation.
    peter0328, TGR1, JeepBB and 1 others like this.
    09-13-14 01:49 PM
  3. singhvikas101's Avatar
    I would say, it doesnt matter who started it first.
    What matters is who did it "The Best"!

    Lets wait and watch the adoption rate of apple pay and what more is to come from BB!
    09-13-14 01:57 PM
  4. AfterSuperphone's Avatar
    Because of the card issues that have signed on?
    Issuers that are signing on include J.P. Morgan Chase & Co., Bank of America Corp. BAC +1.33% , American Express, Citigroup Inc., Capital One Financial Corp. COF -0.36% and Wells Fargo WFC +0.21% & Co. Barclaycard, Navy Federal Credit Union, PNC Financial Services Group Inc., PNC +0.52% USAA and U.S. Bancorp USB +0.24% also will be included in Apple Pay.
    That's just the one side of the equation. How many retailers have signed on?
    09-13-14 02:00 PM
  5. mornhavon's Avatar
    So to try to understand your example:
    I pay $100 to Target for products using a Visa credit card stored on Apple Pay...Target pays the surcharge (4% = $4) for me using a credit card to Visa. Then Visa pays half of that surcharge ($2) to Apple.

    Apple gets $2/$100 just for providing the portal and accessibility. So Apple created this new way to simply get money out of it. I'm not hating on it...it's a business. But just saying.
    Your scale is way off though, I don't think anyone would agree to the arrangement above. The rumour is that Apple takes around 0.15% of the transaction total. $0.15 for every $100 spent.
    Source: http://www.macrumors.com/2014/09/12/...e-pay-details/
    CubeDweller likes this.
    09-13-14 02:05 PM
  6. bakron1's Avatar
    We all know Apple's strength isn't really "inventing" new technologies. They have a knack for taking existing technologies and packaging them in a way that makes them friendly to the everyday consumer. If anything, I'm happy that Apple has finally adopted NFC. It's great that BlackBerry and some of the Android OEMs can say that they've had NFC technology years ago...but to this day, it's hardly considered mainstream. If Apple can finally give it a big enough push into our daily lives, then it's a win for everyone...regardless of who's smartphones you prefer.
    Well put and Apple being the huge company they are with 158 billion in surplus cash makes others take notice when they start to implement one of their processes..

    I understand how the NFC technology will be great and improve folks lives, but with all the security breaches and hacks going on lately. I have started to use cash at the major retailers, that's the best way to combat the hackers.

    Sent from my Lovely z30 on T Mobile USA (10.3.0.1154)
    09-13-14 02:05 PM
  7. poweronpub's Avatar
    That's just the one side of the equation. How many retailers have signed on?
    Would love to hear more about this, too. It wouldn't be surprising at all to see retailers start signing on in a big way with so many card issuers backing this, though.
    09-13-14 02:06 PM
  8. app_Developer's Avatar
    That's just the one side of the equation. How many retailers have signed on?
    Retailers don't have to sign up for anything Apple specific.
    techvisor likes this.
    09-13-14 02:13 PM
  9. walt63's Avatar
    I'm not talking about protecting the PIN. I'm talking about protecting the PAN itself. The PIN is not sufficient protection to say we can be careless with the PAN. The closed loop systems have much lower risk, and don't worry about this as much as we have to.
    This is funny because this method has been used for years. So you're saying that the methods that we use today aren't secure? Are you admitting that your company (the bank you work for) doesn't have security as their top priority and this process is very archaic?

    In addition to the convenient payment method, though, Apple will also reduce the risk to merchants and banks, which is worth money. Apple will be paid for all of that.
    So, I'm right. Apple is getting paid just for their adaption of NFC. IMO, they knew that simple NFC wouldn't get them paid, so they tweaked it to get a cut. Almost like a corrupt politician..."what's in it for me" mentality.

    NFC is end user to end user. Apple made it, end user to Apple to end user. Get in to get some of action. I truly believe that NFC can be as secure as the merchant/bank want's it to be. We have 'contactless' technologies such as PayPass/PayWave (Visa payWave | Visa USA) with integrated security measures. Basic NFC is capable of this.

    BTW, they also get paid for removing the slow, archaic phone companies out of the equation. I cannot overemphasize how critical that is for future innovation in payments. BlackBerry users should understand this as well as anyone as we wait for carriers to approve every OS update and choose which phones they feel like carrying, etc.
    Well, considering that NFC payments been part of Canada and other countries for a while, this makes me think the carrier's dont have that much influence in this. Apple simply has the carrier's by the balls, thats why they can do OS updated directly from their servers.

    Hey, I have to skadaddle. Good conversation.
    09-13-14 02:23 PM
  10. stardomains's Avatar
    BlackBerry and Samsung and other mobile handset makers etc. ought to get to lobbying to make sure that NFC payments are open to everybody and that retailers terminals and the dominant NFC payment systems cannot lock out other handset makers. There needs to be a standard for allowing any large handset maker to join any NFC payment system that becomes dominant.
    09-13-14 02:27 PM
  11. walt63's Avatar
    Your scale is way off though, I don't think anyone would agree to the arrangement above. The rumour is that Apple takes around 0.15% of the transaction total. $0.15 for every $100 spent.
    Source: Apple Pay Details: Apple Gets 0.15% Cut of Purchases, Higher Rates for Bluetooth Payments - Mac Rumors
    4% is the max for a credit card surcharge. It can be anywhere between 0% and that. I was just using that as an example.
    09-13-14 02:27 PM
  12. app_Developer's Avatar
    This is funny because this method has been used for years. So you're saying that the methods that we use today aren't secure? Are you admitting that your company (the bank you work for) doesn't have security as their top priority and this process is very archaic?
    I believe you and I are having two different conversations on this PIN issue.

    Let me try again:

    This started because you were saying your cafeteria uses a very simplistic NFC system for your prepaid cafe card in a closed loop system. I pointed out this doesn't protect the PAN very well. You replied that it does protect the PIN.

    I'm saying we have to protect the PIN and the PAN, both, because we are protecting people's debit and credit cards which are much more valuable. We cannot use a simple system like what you have in your cafeteria at work. Does that make sense?
    We can't afford to be careless with the PAN and cover it by saying we protect PIN.

    As a bank, we do both.


    So, I'm right. Apple is getting paid just for their adaption of NFC. IMO, they knew that simple NFC wouldn't get them paid, so they tweaked it to get a cut. Almost like a corrupt politician..."what's in it for me" mentality.

    NFC is end user to end user. Apple made it, end user to Apple to end user. Get in to get some of action. I truly believe that NFC can be as secure as the merchant/bank want's it to be. We have 'contactless' technologies such as PayPass/PayWave (Visa payWave | Visa USA) with integrated security measures. Basic NFC is capable of this.



    Well, considering that NFC payments been part of Canada and other countries for a while, this makes me think the carrier's dont have that much influence in this. Apple simply has the carrier's by the balls, thats why they can do OS updated directly from their servers.

    Hey, I have to skadaddle. Good conversation.
    Your description of this indicates you're not quite getting it. You're focusing on only one narrow part of the payment process. Apple Pay uses Paywave and Paypass in the process, but it a bigger overall system that is a better solution right now than the other systems which also use Paywave and Paypass as components.

    You'll notice in Canada the payment systems you are talking about are either closed loop, or they are specifically supported by Rogers or other carriers. Look at CIBC again as the example here.
    TGR1, mornhavon, Bsbudd and 1 others like this.
    09-13-14 02:32 PM
  13. anon(832122)'s Avatar
    I'm not talking about protecting the PIN. I'm talking about protecting the PAN itself. The PIN is not sufficient protection to say we can be careless with the PAN. The closed loop systems have much lower risk, and don't worry about this as much as we have to.




    You forgot the banks in your example (we need to be paid, too! ), but yes you have the basic idea.

    In addition to the convenient payment method, though, Apple will also reduce the risk to merchants and banks, which is worth money. Apple will be paid for all of that.

    BTW, they also get paid for removing the slow, archaic phone companies out of the equation. I cannot overemphasize how critical that is for future innovation in payments. BlackBerry users should understand this as well as anyone as we wait for carriers to approve every OS update and choose which phones they feel like carrying, etc.

    Phone carriers are an enormous barrier to innovation.
    This is so true! Hopefully the complete lack of regulatory governance over the telecoms will become a federal election issue (not going to hold my breath though).
    09-13-14 02:34 PM
  14. andre3030's Avatar
    I had to start laughing too, since I need to use my Bold 9900 to pay with NFC.
    I'm not laughing all the way to the bank, but Android and Apple users are.
    09-13-14 02:35 PM
  15. keepthetorch's Avatar
    BlackBerry and Samsung and other mobile handset makers etc. ought to get to lobbying to make sure that NFC payments are open to everybody and that retailers terminals and the dominant NFC payment systems cannot lock out other handset makers. There needs to be a standard for allowing any large handset maker to join any NFC payment system that becomes dominant.
    You beat me to it! Good post!
    09-13-14 02:39 PM
  16. TgeekB's Avatar
    Learning? I hear that these 5 large banks and Visa and MasterCard all have stupid sheep making strategic decisions and you can make them spend billions by waving an Apple logo in front of them. That's how it works, yes?
    Yeah, that's learning with blinders on!

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    09-13-14 02:42 PM
  17. Skier1960's Avatar
    I hope this thread doesn't get derailed. I'm learning a lot and others can too.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    Oh yeah.. Best read on here in a long time. Let's just listen a bit more. (Read)

    Nexus 5
    09-13-14 02:43 PM
  18. AnimalPak200's Avatar
    You know how we've been waiting and begging and still waiting for basic banking apps to be offered for BB10?

    Received this earlier today:


    Apple Pay:  I can't stop laughing-20140913154058.jpg


    It hasn't even launched and banks are already hyping it up, while almost two years of actual users begging has achieved nothing for BB10.

    The only one that can't stop laughing here is Apple.

    Posted via CB10
    techvisor likes this.
    09-13-14 02:44 PM
  19. app_Developer's Avatar
    BlackBerry and Samsung and other mobile handset makers etc. ought to get to lobbying to make sure that NFC payments are open to everybody and that retailers terminals and the dominant NFC payment systems cannot lock out other handset makers. There needs to be a standard for allowing any large handset maker to join any NFC payment system that becomes dominant.
    Yeah, it's a great point. Fast forward 2 years and the big complaint on this forum will be "I bought the new Z97 and my credit card doesn't work with it. Why does my Deutsche Bank card work only work with Samsung and Apple phones?

    It's the same as the app gap all over again, but more serious this time. I would hope that regulators will look carefully at this.
    09-13-14 02:44 PM
  20. TgeekB's Avatar
    You know how we've been waiting and begging and still waiting for basic banking apps to be offered for BB10?

    Received this earlier today:


    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20140913154058.jpg 
Views:	375 
Size:	66.1 KB 
ID:	297651


    It hasn't even launched and banks are already hyping it up, while almost two years of actual users begging has achieved nothing for BB10.

    The only one that can't stop laughing here is Apple.

    Posted via CB10
    Sad but very true.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    09-13-14 02:50 PM
  21. TGR1's Avatar
    App_Developer, thanks for the highly instructive posts, particularly since you can't discuss all. I think I get most of it You've really raised the quality of this thread. Very interesting that the system was designed with outside the US largely in mind. Once it actually deploys in Oct I am sure we will see articles taking deeper dives into the system and how well it works for real.
    09-13-14 02:51 PM
  22. amjass12's Avatar
    The only 'screamingly ignorant' people are those that will undoubtedly think that NFC was an Apple invention.
    +1000
    09-13-14 03:00 PM
  23. mornhavon's Avatar
    4% is the max for a credit card surcharge. It can be anywhere between 0% and that. I was just using that as an example.
    And I was just making sure that people reading your post didn't think Apple was taking the lion's share of the merchant fees. At 0.15% of the transaction, Apple's "cut" will be between 3.75-10% of the total merchant fee for accepting the credit card.
    app_Developer, TGR1 and techvisor like this.
    09-13-14 03:06 PM
  24. app_Developer's Avatar
    And I was just making sure that people reading your post didn't think Apple was taking the lion's share of the merchant fees. At 0.15% of the transaction, Apple's "cut" will be between 3.75-10% of the total merchant fee for accepting the credit card.
    I'm avoiding confirming any numbers here, but you are at least in the right ballpark. It's isn't a fixed factor of course. It can't be, since interchange fees vary from transaction to transaction depending on issuer, merchant, risk, etc.
    TGR1, techvisor and mornhavon like this.
    09-13-14 03:08 PM
  25. bcat1346's Avatar
    I would say, it doesnt matter who started it first.
    What matters is who did it "The Best"!

    Lets wait and watch the adoption rate of apple pay and what more is to come from BB!
    Sounds about right.

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9800 using Tapatalk
    09-13-14 03:18 PM
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