11-07-14 01:42 PM
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  1. app_Developer's Avatar
    I really appreciate all the knowledge that you bring to this thread. It is nearly impossible to get accurate implementation information regarding NFC payment mechanisms.

    I noticed that you stated Isis and Google Wallet do not use tokens. While from what I have read I am under the impression that Google Wallet works by storing your card numbers on the backend, then using a virtual Mastercard number for the purchase. This number doesn't change, therefore it can be skimmed. The payment itself works by having the merchant charge the Google Mastercard, and then Google charges your personal credit card they have on file.

    For Isis I was under the impression that they do use tokenization, which is why it requires banks to be a partner on the back-end. Do they not actually use any tokenization, or is it simply a lesser form of tokenization (such as only the CVV value or only 8 of the card numbers are tokenized, etc).

    I really would appreciate more in depth information regarding these systems. It is important that I understand any security implementations of any system I choose to use.

    If you would prefer, feel free to PM me.

    Posted via CB10
    Isis and Google do use tokens, but they are generated and managed differently. Apple's process is much more secure because there are fewer parties that you have to trust with your PAN. Apple also works closely with us to ensure that someone can't borrow your card and add it your her phone without your permission.

    Google's approach is a major privacy issue and undermines the bank/customer relationship.

    So it's not that tokens are new, it's that the process around them is much more sophisticated and secure than it was in those other earlier attempts.
    Last edited by app_Developer; 09-13-14 at 11:58 AM.
    techvisor, early2bed and peter0328 like this.
    09-13-14 11:44 AM
  2. walt63's Avatar
    - Banks and issuers pay Apple with money rather than paying Google with our customers data. We would rather give Apple money than give Google our customers data.
    So will Apple upcharge this transaction? If I pay $100 for something, how much is the merchant/bank paying Apple for that transaction?
    09-13-14 11:47 AM
  3. app_Developer's Avatar
    So will Apple upcharge this transaction? If I pay $100 for something, how much is the merchant/bank paying Apple for that transaction?
    The issuer will pay Apple for each transaction. It is a certain percentage of the interchange and it may actually vary by issuer. It should become a very significant revenue source for Apple over time.

    Banks either pay Apple money or hand over private information to Google. Most seem to prefer the former.
    09-13-14 11:51 AM
  4. walt63's Avatar
    The issuer will pay Apple for each transaction. It is a certain percentage of the interchange and it may actually vary by issuer. It should become a very significant revenue source for Apple over time.

    Banks either pay Apple money or hand over private information to Google. Most seem to prefer the former.
    Hmmm...thats very interesting that Apple is simply making money off of people purchasing food/products through Apple Pay. Especially if nothing is being stored on servers, clouds, or the devices.

    So why would the bank prefer to pay that percentage. Is Apple Pay that revolutionary that banks/merchants are willing to pay pennies on the dollar for each transaction. This seems weird. It's like paying an unnecessary tax to Apple when banks could have easily used basic NFC technology without the need for carriers. Why hand Apple money?
    09-13-14 12:01 PM
  5. eduzojordan's Avatar
    In fact, the NFC in the BB10 phones are utterly USELESS when it comes to mobile payment in the US. Watch Apple take off with their implementation in less than a year that nobody can achieve in 3.
    Posted via CB10
    If you are referring in the US, you are correct.

    Wireless (cards FeliCa, NFC) and mobile payment has been going on in Asia for several years now!
    Octopus card - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    With this card you can use Hong Kong metro railway system, pay for food, cloths, cinema tickets and snacks..and even taxi fare.

    "As with most things mobile, it is important to look East for inspiration. While the NFC story in Japan and China is encouraging, it is South Korea that stands out particularly. As highlighted in mobiThinkings previous article, back in 2011, the national regulator, the Korean Communications Commission (KCC), has brought together the major mobile operators, financial institutions, device manufacturers note Samsung the worlds number one handset/smartphone manufacturer is Korean and other stakeholders in a Grand NFC Korea Alliance to put the country at the forefront of NFC and to ensure the establishment of interoperable systems."
    Mobile payments will surpass $235 Billion in 2013 (Gartner); NFC still disappointingly small, despite the hype | mobiThinking

    North Americans tend to think they are first on every technology, but they are not in many cases...take video calling...
    iPhone 4's FaceTime Video Calling Isn't A First | News & Opinion | PCMag.com (iPhone 4's FaceTime Video Calling Isn't A First)
    walt63 likes this.
    09-13-14 12:09 PM
  6. app_Developer's Avatar
    Hmmm...thats very interesting that Apple is simply making money off of people purchasing food/products through Apple Pay.

    So why would the bank prefer to pay that percentage. Is Apple Pay that revolutionary that banks/merchants are will to pay pennies on the dollar for each transaction. This seems weird. It's like paying an unnecessary tax to Apple when banks could have easily used basic NFC technology. Why hand Apple money?
    Because you have to look at the alternatives.

    One is Softcard, which is controlled by phone companies. Phone companies are terrible partners because they move so slowly. Look at how much good Apple did by cutting phone companies out of the app stores (remember years ago when developers had to get their apps approved by each phone carrier?! It was a nightmare)

    Another alternative is Google, which wants no money but their system is designed so they see every single transaction. That is much more costly than paying a fee to Apple.

    Another alternative is for each bank to make an app for each OS and negotiate that with each carrier. That is what BlackBerry has always offered us, but that is even more costly and doesn't scale very well.

    Combine this with the fact that Apple's system is safer, and more secure than all of these. Our highest income, highest spending customers are on iPhone. And Apple came with a better complete technology vision than we've seen from others so far.
    09-13-14 12:15 PM
  7. walt63's Avatar
    If you are referring in the US, you are correct.
    Some think that US is the World. Believe it or not, the US is not leading in advanced technology as many may think. Our media just does a good job at altering perception. That's another topic.
    tinochiko and eduzojordan like this.
    09-13-14 12:17 PM
  8. app_Developer's Avatar
    Some think that US is the World. Believe it or not, the US is not leading in advanced technology as many may think. Our media just does a good job at altering perception. That's another topic.
    Apple Pay wasn't designed for the US market. The security and anti-fraud measures in it are more useful in China and other markets. US users are the beta testers here.
    09-13-14 12:20 PM
  9. arlene_t's Avatar
    You laught yet apple will probably have the last laught since they will probably the one to make it standard even though they're not the first to implement it or developed it.

    via Q10
    09-13-14 12:25 PM
  10. walt63's Avatar
    Another alternative is for each bank to make an app for each OS and negotiate that with each carrier.
    But does this really need to happen. With NFC, why do you need an app in the first place. Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't the user store that information and allow it to be transferred from the mobile device and not necessarily through an app?

    NFC is simply point to point transfer of data, with or without an app. For example, my work uses NFC to allow workers to purchase item from the cafe. I simply create the "shopping card" as a NFC and tap. The screen displays my account and allows me to confirm the debit from my stored account.

    No app...just a simply NFC point-to-point component.
    09-13-14 12:29 PM
  11. VR6's Avatar
    Let's be honest.

    Apple's implementation is far superior to anything else on the market. Because of them, a large number of retail outlets are going to be adopting the ability to use NFC to pay. BlackBerry hasn't really done anything intriguing with NFC. Even if they did, not many major brands would pay attention.

    Now that Apple has brought NFC into the limelight, BlackBerry/Android can finally start using NFC payment methods at more retailers.
    Yes let's be honest, the companies that signed on for Apple Pay only did it because it's Apple. Not like its new of innovative. Definition of iSheep.

    Posted via CB10
    09-13-14 12:31 PM
  12. walt63's Avatar
    Apple Pay wasn't designed for the US market. The security and anti-fraud measures in it are more useful in China and other markets. US users are the beta testers here.
    My comment wasn't pertaining solely to Apple Pay.
    09-13-14 12:31 PM
  13. app_Developer's Avatar
    But does this really need to happen. With NFC, why do you need an app in the first place. Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't the user store that information and allow it to be transferred from the mobile device and not necessarily through an app?

    NFC is simply point to point transfer of data, with or without an app. For example, my work uses NFC to allow workers to purchase item from the cafe. I simply create the "shopping card" as a NFC and tap. The screen displays my account and allows me to confirm the debit from my stored account.

    No app...just a simply NFC point-to-point component.
    Are you paying with your phone? There has to be something on your phone (whether you call it an app or not) which managed your card info, authenticates the user, and reacts properly to the NFC terminal. That's either an app specific to each bank (the BlackBerry approach) or an app provided by the manufacturer (e.g. Passbook) or a third party (e.g. Google or Isis)
    09-13-14 12:36 PM
  14. walt63's Avatar
    Are you paying with your phone? There has to be something on your phone (whether you call it an app or not) which managed your card info, authenticates the user, and reacts properly to the NFC terminal. That's either an app specific to each bank (the BlackBerry approach) or an app provided by the manufacturer (e.g. Passbook) or a third party (e.g. Google or Isis)
    A barcode is on my device but that's it and it's on my device by using the NFC application on my Z10. But its not through the bank or merchant. It's not an app that you get from BBWorld.

    Elaborating more on how its done at this particular cafe store....
    The user must store money by cash on debit/credit card on the "shopping card". After money is stored, you can keep the physical card on your keychain or write the barcode as a NFC. I wrote as NFC.
    So now when I go to the cafe, I pick out a bag of chips. I then go to checkout and scan the item. The monitor says, ''scan your store card or tap your device". I tap my device...my account comes up. I enter my pin to confirm user and boom bam done. Then $1 is debited from my "shopping card".

    No app it needed from the merchant or my deibit card company.
    09-13-14 12:54 PM
  15. app_Developer's Avatar
    A barcode is on my device but that's it and it's on my device by using the NFC application on my Z10. But its not through the bank or merchant. It's not an app that you get from BBWorld.

    Elaborating more on how its done at this particular cafe store....
    The user must store money by cash on debit/credit card on the "shopping card". After money is stored, you can keep the physical card on your keychain or write the barcode as a NFC. I wrote as NFC.
    So now when I go to the cafe, I pick out a bag of chips. I then go to checkout and scan the item. The monitor says, ''scan your store card or tap your device". I tap my device...my account comes up. I enter my pin to confirm user and boom bam done. Then $1 is debited from my "shopping card".

    No app it needed from the merchant or my deibit card company.
    Oh, OK, that is a closed loop system. And I might add, horribly insecure if you tried to do that on a wider basis with millions of merchants. You have the advantage of a single merchant in this case. That wouldn't work at scale over MasterCard, Visa, etc.

    What you are describing is similar to how transport system cards work or how kids get meals at school with their meal cards. Those are easily hacked, but the target is not attractive to criminals because if they stole your card all they can do it go get food at your cafeteria. If they steal and then sell your Visa signature card, that is much more valuable.

    A closer example is the CIBC payment app. It works with credit cards and 4 carriers. That's fine if you are a small bank like CIBC in one small country. But imagine you are Barclays or Amex or Citi and you need to do this across so many millions of customers across hundreds of carriers around the world!
    09-13-14 01:05 PM
  16. --TommesJay--'s Avatar
    And Apple came with a better complete technology vision than we've seen from others so far.
    Umm no. It's just that Apple is in full control of millions of US CC users phones on both hardware and software side so they had a better stand to negotiate with institutes at the round table. That hasn't anything to do with technology vision or capabilities. If 50% of US CC users would carry a BlackBerry it would've been BlackBerry to pull this off.

    Posted via CB10
    09-13-14 01:13 PM
  17. app_Developer's Avatar
    Umm no. It's just that Apple is in full control of millions of US CC users phones on both hardware and software side so they had a better stand to negotiate with institutes at the round table. That hasn't anything to do with technology vision or capabilities. If 50% of US CC users would carry a BlackBerry it would've been BlackBerry to pull this off.

    Posted via CB10

    It wasn't very long ago that 50+% of users did carry a BlackBerry. At least the ones that we care most about (our higher credit, high transaction customers). Why didn't BlackBerry pull this off then?

    And what about Apple's way of processing transactions? Are you still denying that it is different from Isis and Google?
    TgeekB, TGR1, peter0328 and 5 others like this.
    09-13-14 01:16 PM
  18. TgeekB's Avatar
    I hope this thread doesn't get derailed. I'm learning a lot and others can too.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    09-13-14 01:16 PM
  19. walt63's Avatar
    Oh, OK, that is a closed loop system. And I might add, horribly insecure if you tried to do that on a wider basis with millions of merchants. You have the advantage of a single merchant in this case. That wouldn't work at scale over MasterCard, Visa, etc.

    What you are describing is similar to how transport system cards work or how kids get meals at school with their meal cards. Those are easily hacked, but the target is not attractive to criminals because if they stole your card all they can do it go get food at your cafeteria. If they steal and then sell your Visa signature card, that is much more valuable.

    A closer example is the CIBC payment app. It works with credit cards and 4 carriers. That's fine if you are a small bank like CIBC in one small country. But imagine you are Barclays or Amex or Citi and you need to do this across so many millions of customers across hundreds of carriers around the world!
    No....if someone stole my card, they still need my PIN to confirm the transaction. It's just like a ATM card, you cant withdraw cash without the PIN. So there's the security aspect of it.

    Also, if the banks/merchants pay Apple pennies on the dollar, wouldn't they be losing money? I'm using my $100 to make a purchase. That's it. The bank/merchant pays (for ex. lets say 3%) to Apple for that transaction. That's $3 gone. Times that by, let's say 50,000 customers with Apple Pay = $150,000 to Apple. That seems pretty steep. Can we assume that the banks/merchants will surcharge the Apple Pay user to cover this cost?
    09-13-14 01:19 PM
  20. app_Developer's Avatar
    I hope this thread doesn't get derailed. I'm learning a lot and others can too.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    Learning? I hear that these 5 large banks and Visa and MasterCard all have stupid sheep making strategic decisions and you can make them spend billions by waving an Apple logo in front of them. That's how it works, yes?
    09-13-14 01:20 PM
  21. axeman1000's Avatar
    Late to the party? Perhaps. Apparently, nobody, including Blackberry has been able to really get the party started, have they?
    Maybe not in the states, but love paying for my coffee from my z10 for the last year here in Canada.
    09-13-14 01:21 PM
  22. walt63's Avatar
    Learning? I hear that these 5 large banks and Visa and MasterCard all have stupid sheep making strategic decisions and you can make them spend billions by waving an Apple logo in front of them. That's how it works, yes?
    Okay...you're getting defensive over Apple. This is CrackBerry. You're going to get the biased fan chatter.
    09-13-14 01:24 PM
  23. app_Developer's Avatar
    No....if someone stole my card, they still need my PIN to confirm the transaction. It's just like a ATM card, you cant withdraw cash without the PIN. So there's the security aspect of it.
    That is totally insufficient for our security needs as a bank, though. I'm not going to put your debit card number out on the Internet and say it's OK because you have a PIN.

    Also, if the banks/merchants pay Apple pennies on the dollar, wouldn't they be losing money? I'm using my $100 to make a purchase. That's it. The bank/merchant pays (for ex. lets say 3%) to Apple for that transaction. That's $3 gone. Times that by, let's say 50,000 customers with Apple Pay = $150,000 to Apple. That seems pretty steep. Can we assume that the banks/merchants will surcharge the Apple Pay user to cover this cost?
    No, merchants and banks cannot put on a surcharge on this. That violates several existing agreements and laws in many states and countries.

    The merchant pays a transaction fee already for every credit card transaction. The issuing bank gets a portion of that, and will pay Apple a portion of that portion.
    09-13-14 01:24 PM
  24. TGR1's Avatar
    Umm no. It's just that Apple is in full control of millions of US CC users phones on both hardware and software side so they had a better stand to negotiate with institutes at the round table. That hasn't anything to do with technology vision or capabilities. If 50% of US CC users would carry a BlackBerry it would've been BlackBerry to pull this off.

    Posted via CB10
    C'mon.

    App_Developer (who I somehow suspect knows a bit about this topic) has just spent a lot of time in multiple posts describing how much effort it took all interested parties to get this off the ground and you say anyone could have done it as long as they had the user base? No tech vision or abilities?

    It is to laugh.
    09-13-14 01:26 PM
  25. Richard Buckley's Avatar
    Let's be honest.

    Apple's implementation is far superior to anything else on the market. Because of them, a large number of retail outlets are going to be adopting the ability to use NFC to pay. BlackBerry hasn't really done anything intriguing with NFC. Even if they did, not many major brands would pay attention.

    Now that Apple has brought NFC into the limelight, BlackBerry/Android can finally start using NFC payment methods at more retailers.
    NFC Payment has been around for a long time. Almost all stores of any size that I go into have NFC payment capability. They call it Tap and Pay or similar.
    09-13-14 01:36 PM
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