[BergerKing]

Go ahead, but it still looks dated to me. BBOS UI has changed. iOS has not. I dont get where people say BBOS is the same old. I mean, actually saying on looks alone.

Im just going to guess here, so bear with me. The iPhone came out when BB was at 4.5? Or was it 4.6? 4.6 came with the Bold 9000 I think and the iPhone was out before that, right? Look at 4.6 and 6.0/7.0 and tell me nothing has changed in the UI. Now look at iOS 5 compared to the original. Wow, a 3D dock... Come on. Windows made a huge UI change. Android looks completely different phone to phone basically. BBOS looks different, not majorly, but more that iOS UI has evolved.

BlackBerry was still on 4.3 and 4.6(Bold 9000) which were the standard. 4.5 had also made an appearance in the Curve series. I saw my first update to 4.5 in late January to early February of 09.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[KangTsui]

Apple now is trying to be everything but it could end up to be nothing.
1. Apple now is a true copycat.

Didn't Apple come out with the iPhone before RIM tried to copy it with the Storm?

Didn't Apple come out with the iPad before RIM tried to copy it with the Playbook?

By copy, I mean in the case of the Storm, a touch screen phone, in the case of the Playbook, a touch screen tablet?

You should be happy knowing Apple copied some ideas from RIM, some from Microsoft, and some form Google... All of these companies all have great ideas on to themselves. Isn't that what competition is all about?

-Kang

[scorpiodsu]

What functionality is dated with BB OS? BB OS has a lot more customization than iOS.

Again, you're focused on looks. The reason the functionality is dated because it does the same thing blackberry did in 2007 and before. There have been no huge strides in the platform. Everything has been incremental at best. No other services to enhance your mobile experience unless your on BIS. Everything a blackberry does today could be done in 2007. They have done nothing noteworthy in years. Don't agree? That's fine. Agree to disagree. But there's a reason RIM is going QNX and leaving BBOS behind. I mean if it was a platform that could keep up, why leave it? Because it can't.

[scorpiodsu]

Didn't Apple come out with the iPhone before RIM tried to copy it with the Storm?

Didn't Apple come out with the iPad before RIM tried to copy it with the Playbook?

By copy, I mean in the case of the Storm, a touch screen phone, in the case of the Playbook, a touch screen tablet?

You should be happy knowing Apple copied some ideas from RIM, some from Microsoft, and some form Google... All of these companies all have great ideas on to themselves. Isn't that what competition is all about?

-Kang

Exactly. Before the Storm came out BB diehards were saying "I love my blackberry keyboard. Full touchscreen are jokes". Then the Storm comes out and those same people "I love my Storm. Surepress is awesome".

Then when Apple announce the iPad, BB diehards: "Apple is going to fail. Tablets are dumb. People aren't going to buy those". Then when the playbook is leaked, those same people "OMG, I'm getting this. This is the iPad killer. I can't wait to get my playbook with all the things I can do".

Just pure hypocrisy. People hate it when their company doesn't have it and they write it off as dumb and unnecessary. But when their company gets it, it's the best thing ever.

[1812dave]

Exactly. Before the Storm came out BB diehards were saying "I love my blackberry keyboard. Full touchscreen are jokes". Then the Storm comes out and those same people "I love my Storm. Surepress is awesome".

Then when Apple announce the iPad, BB diehards: "Apple is going to fail. Tablets are dumb. People aren't going to buy those". Then when the playbook is leaked, those same people "OMG, I'm getting this. This is the iPad killer. I can't wait to get my playbook with all the things I can do".

Just pure hypocrisy. People hate it when their company doesn't have it and they write it off as dumb and unnecessary. But when their company gets it, it's the best thing ever.

I'm waiting for Jobs to come out with a 7" tablet, seeing as he declared them "DOA"... LOL!

[kbz1960]

Im happier with apple than i have been in years. i lost 5 albums in an HD failure a couple years ago and last night i got to download them again. They were all christmas albums too so between that and the playbook update it really was christmas in june!

I guess you don't know how to backup your files?

[KangTsui]

I'm waiting for Jobs to come out with a 7" tablet, seeing as he declared them "DOA"... LOL!

If Jobs comes out with anything other then the existing 10" form factor, they will fail the same way RIM is rumored to be coming out with a 10" form factor.

Wasn't that a strong selling point? The 7" form factor is more portable than competing 10" form factors?

If RIM does in deed come out with the rumored 10", they have in fact pushed farther into oblivion, as they will have alienated their hard core customers, that preach "it's better, because I can stick in in my pocket"

I have no idea what Apple is coming out with, but a 7" version is highly unlikely, but who know's?

-Kang

[Blacklac]

Again, you're focused on looks. The reason the functionality is dated because it does the same thing blackberry did in 2007 and before. There have been no huge strides in the platform. Everything has been incremental at best. No other services to enhance your mobile experience unless your on BIS. Everything a blackberry does today could be done in 2007. They have done nothing noteworthy in years. Don't agree? That's fine. Agree to disagree. But there's a reason RIM is going QNX and leaving BBOS behind. I mean if it was a platform that could keep up, why leave it? Because it can't.

Because BB OS has been around for years and it tried and true? Of course iOS had to add features at a rapid pace, look at all the basic functionality that was lacking at launch. iOS JUST added a proper notification system. I mean, come on. iOS does not even offer true multitasking, and if your going to make some argument that BB OS cannot do true multitasking either, it can do a lot more tasks at once than iOS is capable of. Add in 3rd party App multitasking and its not even fair for iOS. BB OS has had that before the iOS was even launched on an iPhone.

Its easy to throw around that BB OS is dated and incapable, but I'd love for you to really explain it. What core functionality does iOS have that BB OS is just not capable of? People act like BB OS cannot text message or something.

What has Apple done that could not have been done in 2007?

[Blacklac]

If Jobs comes out with anything other then the existing 10" form factor, they will fail the same way RIM is rumored to be coming out with a 10" form factor.

Wasn't that a strong selling point? The 7" form factor is more portable than competing 10" form factors?

If RIM does in deed come out with the rumored 10", they have in fact pushed farther into oblivion, as they will have alienated their hard core customers, that preach "it's better, because I can stick in in my pocket"

I have no idea what Apple is coming out with, but a 7" version is highly unlikely, but who know's?

-Kang

Did RIM ever bash the 10" form factor like Apple bashed the 7" form factor? Seriously question, I dont know the answer.

Saying a 7" is more portable than a 10" and then ALSO making a 10" is enough to leave a company over? I think you are far from the majority on that thought process.

[KangTsui]

Did RIM ever bash the 10" form factor like Apple bashed the 7" form factor? Seriously question, I dont know the answer.

Saying a 7" is more portable than a 10" and then ALSO making a 10" is enough to leave a company over? I think you are far from the majority on that thought process.

What did Apple say that offend you, by "bashing" the measurements of a tablet?

I'm not sure I understand your last sentence. Sorry.

I think for RIM to come out with a 10" version weeks or months after the initial crack at a 7" model is a great way to upset their customers and potentially push them to other platforms... That's all

[Blacklac]

What did Apple say that offend you, by "bashing" the measurements of a tablet?

I'm not sure I understand your last sentence. Sorry.

I think for RIM to come out with a 10" version weeks or months after the initial crack at a 7" model is a great way to upset their customers and potentially push them to other platforms... That's all

Jobs never offended me. All the blogs said that he basically said a 7" tab was a waste. If they make a 7" tab, they might as well add Flash. Atleast thats how I look at it.

You claimed RIM basically said the same about teh 10", but I have not heard that. Did they say that? When/where? All I've heard is them saying a 7" is more portable.

[KangTsui]

iOS does not even offer true multitasking, and if your going to make some argument that BB OS cannot do true multitasking either, it can do a lot more tasks at once than iOS is capable of.

WOW! People forget what the hardware technology was like when the iPhone first came out compared to what the Playbook is currently running on (for example) It's not even close, so of course, the software at that time, pushed the limits of the hardware that was available. Do you seriously think the QNX in it's current form could run on hardware from 4 years ago?

Also, what is "true multitasking?" Maybe my iPhone 4 is the exception, but it's capable of doing a bunch of stuff at the same time. For example. I'm an avid cyclist, and I run an app called "cyclemeter" and it tracks in real time, my current location, speed, and a bunch of other stuff using the GPS. BUT at the same time that is running, I'm listening to my music with the iPod app (built-in), am able to send and receive emails and text messages, all at the same time, and I'm sure if I got a phone call it would work as well... That's 4 things running at once.

Also, to the mass consumer market, they have no idea what a RTOS or iOS or any of these techno acronyms are. They care about: "does it do the job for me?". Only techno geeks on forums care about these specs, sorry, but it's true...

-Kang

[KangTsui]

You claimed RIM basically said the same about teh 10", but I have not heard that. Did they say that? When/where? All I've heard is them saying a 7" is more portable.

A simple search on these very forums about a 10" Playbook will tell you all you need to know. I didn't make it up. What I said is pretty clear, or maybe not. In my opinion, as I haven't read anything from RIM about the subject, if RIM comes out with a 10" Playbook, their very own advertising campaigns fail, their preaching about portability, fails. That's all.

Also, while this is "i-know-somebody-that-knows-somebody" talk, but I do know somebody that has a friend that works at RIM (I live in Ontario) that has seen the 10" Playbook. Just like Apple would have probably had to also manufactured in some degree a 7" to say a 10", too them, is a better form factor.

-Kang

[Blacklac]

Why did you compare what you quoted to QNX? BB OS has had multitasking for years and not App Switching like iOS uses. You can only truly multitask on iOS with the core Apps (music player is why you used that example) and a few 3rd party Apps that Apple allows access to. Or do I have that wrong? With BB OS (the current Java, not QNX, you can run as many 3rd party Apps as you want until the phone locks up and runs out of free RAM.

BB OS could do a lot more than iOS when it launched and on lesser hardware.

While BB OS IS dated, that really did not limit its core functionality. It limited 3rd Party Apps, yes. Look at what OS7 is going to offer. Not confirmed, but rymors of Wireless Hotspot, NFC, 720p video... Not really dated. If people said BB OS wasn't developer friendly and they were just bored with it, I would fully understand, but to say it can't compete functionally is just wrong and so many people say it. We will see just how well BB OS can run with real hardware this fall on 1.2Ghz and 768MB RAM devices.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[KangTsui]

BB OS has had multitasking for years and not App Switching like iOS uses. You can only truly multitask on iOS with the core Apps (music player is why you used that example) and a few 3rd party Apps that Apple allows access to.

Do you think consumers care if their phone does multitasking or app switching? Nope.

I'm no developer, but the APIs are their (from what I read, take it for what it's worth) to write your apps to multitask like you suggest. Apple doesn't say who can and can't do it.

BTW, what are you multitasking on a BB? Brick breaker?

-Kang

[Blacklac]

Well hey, I think its great for RIM to offer a 10". I assumed it was coming and we heard rumors of it long ago. From what we've heard, Apple also looked into 7" long ago and have recently been reported to say the 7" form factor is basically junk. So if RIM were to make a 10" tablet, that would be no where near as hypocritical as Apple making a 7" tablet. Maybe I missed it, but I've never heard of RIM bashing the 10" form factor for a tablet. Just touting their 7" as more portable.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[scorpiodsu]

I'm waiting for Jobs to come out with a 7" tablet, seeing as he declared them "DOA"... LOL!

Agreed. Especially if Apple comes out with a bigger phone. And the same with all the playbook users bashing 10 inch tablets will run out and get a 10 inch playbook because now all of a sudden the bigger screen is awesome. Go figure.

[scorpiodsu]

Because BB OS has been around for years and it tried and true? Of course iOS had to add features at a rapid pace, look at all the basic functionality that was lacking at launch. iOS JUST added a proper notification system.

Yeah but it's not just the features on the phone. It's the capabilities of the phone and the services that accompany them. RIM has done nothing to move forward period. And "tried and true"? I guess but that was then and this is now. This is why they are moving to QNX because they release that BBOS is a dying OS that is quickly being left behind. And I agree Apple should have released a bunch of things a while ago, but here's the thing, they continue to address the widespread gripes about their platform and services. When has RIM addressed any criticisms of their platform in the last 2 years? They haven't and that's why we're waiting on QNX.

[Blacklac]

Agreed. Especially if Apple comes out with a bigger phone. And the same with all the playbook users bashing 10 inch tablets will run out and get a 10 inch playbook because now all of a sudden the bigger screen is awesome. Go figure.

Forums members saying one thing doesn't compare to what a CEO says. Lots of people like the 7" form factor, lots of people like the bigger screen. RIM would be smart to offer both. It is a shame for Apple that Jobs has openly been so against things like 7" tablets and Flash.

[Blacklac]

Yeah but it's not just the features on the phone. It's the capabilities of the phone and the services that accompany them. RIM has done nothing to move forward period. And "tried and true"? I guess but that was then and this is now. This is why they are moving to QNX because they release that BBOS is a dying OS that is quickly being left behind. And I agree Apple should have released a bunch of things a while ago, but here's the thing, they continue to address the widespread gripes about their platform and services. When has RIM addressed any criticisms of their platform in the last 2 years? They haven't and that's why we're waiting on QNX.

I dont know, I consider OS6 and OS7 moving forward from OS5 (heck RIM was on 4.5 or 4.6 when the iPhone came out). They are quite different IMO. ****, they added a Webkit browser. That was a HUGE complaint and RIM did address this. Granted, a bit late (probably a year atleast) but it came and it keeps getting better. Have you seen the video of the 9900 running the browser vs the 9780? Looks promising. Not to mention how good QNX's browser is, but that's OT to this point.

Yes, I agree it is extremely wise for RIM to move on to QNX, but what exactly is iOS doing that BB OS cannot?

[scorpiodsu]

I dont know, I consider OS6 and OS7 moving forward from OS5 (heck RIM was on 4.5 or 4.6 when the iPhone came out). They are quite different IMO. ****, they added a Webkit browser. That was a HUGE complaint and RIM did address this. Granted, a bit late (probably a year atleast) but it came and it keeps getting better. Have you seen the video of the 9900 running the browser vs the 9780? Looks promising. Not to mention how good QNX's browser is, but that's OT to this point.

Yes, I agree it is extremely wise for RIM to move on to QNX, but what exactly is iOS doing that BB OS cannot?

Well I guess the updates from OS are purely subjective. And I can respect that. But in my opinion from being a BB user from 2005, I just don't see a huge improvement. That's just my opinion. And it's more about disappointment and not hatred for RIM. I want RIM to bounce back. We all need the competition.

And if you're asking what iOS is doing that BB OS cannot..... I would think you need to consult the entire tech industry that sees RIM falling behind with the current OS. If you really think BBOS can do the same thing that iOS or Android can do, then I'd venture to say that you haven't really used an iOS or Android device. And it's not just so much BB can't do it. It's that Android and iOS does it better. People on BB still cling to push email, battery life and BBM because that's all blackberry really does well in comparison. Everything else is no where near on par with iOS or Android.

But I respect your opinion. Just don't agree with it. We're all waiting on QNX because BBOS just isn't cutting it anymore.

[Blacklac]

I know iOS is more capable than BB OS, im just wondering what exactly the core of iOS is currently doing that is so ahead of BB OS. I understand Apps, I'm not talking about that. Of the core function of the OS itself, I just dont see where everyone is so bent on iOS being so far ahead. What are they currently doing? All I see is the same UI they launched with and they are adding functionality that has been in BB for a while already.

If iOS didn't have their Apps, where would they be? Yet, I understand that is just where BB OS fails, App support. I completely understand that, that is RIM's fault and completely a BB Java OS limitation.

I just think most of us can agree, iOS is huge because of its Apps and iTunes. If it weren't for that, they would be nowhere near where they are. They do not have the #1 selling phone due to core OS functionality alone.

That said, I cant wait for QNX also. I use it on my Playbook and I love it. Yet, I'm 7 months overdue for my next phone and I plan to stick with BBOS7 (hopefully the BB Touch. ****, I'd probably head to WP7 if I left BB, same as my current iOS using buddy. He's annoyed the iOS didn't get a UI overhaul and is also considering going to WP7, but he'd love a QNX phone now.). I was at 1 point considering an iPhone for their hardware and iTunes, but I cannot get past their OS. I love the way you can customize BB OS and all the features and settings you have access to inside the BB menu system. There's no way I could pick up an iPhone in its current form and enjoy that as much as I even enjoy my current phones based on the OS experience alone. I just dont feel iOS will offer anything that BB OS7 wont, that I really need. BB OS7 has a good browser, I really hope they stick with Wifi Hotspot, supposed to have NFC, they added hardware accelerated graphics for a nice experience. That alone is huge IMO. Maybe if the iPhone 5 had a FFC, I MIGHT be jealous of that feature. I'm sure it would get old and not used quick, but I do look forward to using it on my PB, so...

I want to point out, I own a 1st Gen iPod Touch also. Although the battery is all but dead. I am atleast familiar with iOS up to 3.XX and my best buddy owns the iPhone 4.

[scorpiodsu]

I just think most of us can agree, iOS is huge because of its Apps and iTunes. If it weren't for that, they would be nowhere near where they are. They do not have the #1 selling phone due to core OS functionality alone.

I fully agree. The problem for RIM is that right now apps are the things that are driving mobile platforms now. This is why RIM is getting Android's app market on QNX. It's about the apps. Because the developers take what the platform is capable of and develop useful (many silly) apps that enhance the user experience. Blackberry OS is not capable of producing the kind of apps that you can get on iOS, Android isn't even capable right now. Even though iOS appears to be very simplistic in looks, the platform is very robust and developers can do so many things that other platforms can't do or do it poorly. This is why you can take the same app across platforms and see the difference in quality and performance. The developers can only work with what's available. So in my opinion, it's not just as simple as saying "if it weren't for apps...". That's only part of it. The platform has to be able to produce those apps that are being used by everyone from preschool kids to doctors and NASA engineers. This is something that BBOS cannot do. And it's not because lack of developers. It's because the platform simply cannot do it.

And I do agree with you about core functionality. BBOS has great core functionality. After all it was only a business device. Many can argue, that they can do everything on an iPhone as far as core functions that they could on a blackberry. But not only that, I can do a bunch of other stuff too. Of course, give or take a few things, but nothing really important for most people. But the thing is that iOS and Android have been closing that gap quickly while RIM hasn't closed the gap in the other features that they are lacking. So as iOS and Android's core functions become as good as RIM and RIM doesn't improve in other areas, they fall behind. And that's what's been happening over the past couple years.

[Blacklac]

I see your point. I guess its just the different ways people (we?) view things. Maybe its just the way I viewed it, obviously nothing to do with developing. When I look at a mobile OS, Apps are the 2nd thing I look at. First I look at the UI and functionality of the core experience. Just going by your post, I'd say you probably look at everything as a whole. I like Apps, but I dont count on them. They are kind of an added bonus. Apps are nice, but I can easily live with most of the Apps BB has now if that goes along with a great browser. Give me a mapping App, Amazon App, maybe a couple utility Apps, Golf GPS App and I'm basically good to go.

That said, I bought my Playbook for fun and I am heavily relying on a strong App ecosystem in the future. I dont think I could ever combine the 2 devices with what I currently see now. I dont think I could enjoy the "fun" part of a PB with a 4" phone. Even a 5" like a Dell Streak? I just dont know, I guess. Plus its Android...

I've seen a few people say BB OS was outdated even without Apps, so thats what I was kind of fishing for.

[scorpiodsu]

I see your point. I guess its just the different ways people (we?) view things. Maybe its just the way I viewed it, obviously nothing to do with developing. When I look at a mobile OS, Apps are the 2nd thing I look at. First I look at the UI and functionality of the core experience. Just going by your post, I'd say you probably look at everything as a whole. I like Apps, but I dont count on them. They are kind of an added bonus. Apps are nice, but I can easily live with most of the Apps BB has now if that goes along with a great browser. Give me a mapping App, Amazon App, maybe a couple utility Apps, Golf GPS App and I'm basically good to go.

That said, I bought my Playbook for fun and I am heavily relying on a strong App ecosystem in the future. I dont think I could ever combine the 2 devices with what I currently see now. I dont think I could enjoy the "fun" part of a PB with a 4" phone. Even a 5" like a Dell Streak? I just dont know, I guess. Plus its Android...

I've seen a few people say BB OS was outdated even without Apps, so thats what I was kind of fishing for.

I'm with you. Fully understand your point. Most people who still love blackberry are those that appreciate the core functionality because that's good enough for them. And I definitely understand that. Problem for RIM is that people have begun wanting more than just good core functionality. But at the end of the day, I hope QNX gives us all the reliable blackberry core functionality along with a very capable platform to rival the media centric iOS and open Android.