1. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Lol... Steve Jobs' success at creating products that "nobody asked for" worked spectularly for HIM.
    Pretty sure everything Apple did was a natural evolution as well... but with some foresight of how it could be done better than what others were already doing. Apple didn't create the MP3 player, they didn't come up the first online music store, nor did they do the first all touch smartphone.

    BlackBerry's problem is they didn't see the evolution taking place to till ran right over them.

    I'm sure T-Rex thought those tiny arms were all he needed as well....
    Shuswap and app_Developer like this.
    01-14-22 12:19 PM
  2. idssteve's Avatar
    Pretty sure everything Apple did was a natural evolution as well... but with some foresight of how it could be done better than what others were already doing. Apple didn't create the MP3 player, they didn't come up the first online music store, nor did they do the first all touch smartphone.

    BlackBerry's problem is they didn't see the evolution taking place to till ran right over them.

    I'm sure T-Rex thought those tiny arms were all he needed as well....
    All things evolve. Giant T-rex actually enjoyed a relatively long "market cycle" compared with many other bigger armed "competitive designs". Its tiny arms clearly played less role in the design's ultimate demise than did its grossly oversized form factor. A form factor shared by MANY "competitive designs" dominating "the market" of the day. A form factor ultimately proven too huge to fit available shelter when "market conditions" changed. Lol.

    Afaik, iPod evolved to iPhone for Apple. Pager evolved to Bold for RIM. MY distinction between the two evolutionary paths rests with user feedback. Which users?

    Sure, once Apple's innovations evolved into iPhone, 2007, EVERYbody "wanted" one. Including VZW. Lol. Many thought, and STILL think, RIM should've dropped EVERYthing and made a better, bigger, cheaper, "iPhone killer". ... Ie Storm? Lol. Despite that the product hadn't demonstrated proven success till 2007? What sort of castigation might Mike have befallen had he wasted resources chasing a then unproven IP protected competitive innovation?

    Before Apple's innovation launched, what feedback to Apple or RIM remotely indicated that "every"body wanted all touch? Where were the monster threads advocating to be rid of those awful physical keys? Who was advocating to be rid of swappable batteries? Etc, etc

    Before 2007, where were streets filled with disaffected smartphone users chanting "Give us glass! Give us glass!!" ? ?? Lol.

    Tiny RIM simply NEVER stood a snowcone's chance to chase Apple's market. Wasn't happening even if RIM had started in 97. Let alone 07. Tiny niche was ALL they had to look forward to, 2007. Imo. A tiny niche that MIGHT have, maybe, been defended? ??

    BlackBerry's problem, imo, is that they listened to folks like you and vzw, diverted their attention from their own userbase and wrecked themselves chasing Apple's userbase with "less is more" BB10. Imo. Fwiw.

    Regardless, Mike's engineering perspective solved problems as perceived & presented by RIM's legacy-pager-enterprise userbase. Including from companies like mine. Steve's visionary perspective innovated a whole different perception. To BIG results. I just don't see that Mike and his company truly fit Clayton's "innovator's dilemma". Imo. Fwiw.
    01-15-22 06:08 PM
  3. 3800's Avatar
    All things evolve. Giant T-rex actually enjoyed a relatively long "market cycle" compared with many other bigger armed "competitive designs". Its tiny arms clearly played less role in the design's ultimate demise than did its grossly oversized form factor. A form factor shared by MANY "competitive designs" dominating "the market" of the day. A form factor ultimately proven too huge to fit available shelter when "market conditions" changed. Lol.

    Afaik, iPod evolved to iPhone for Apple. Pager evolved to Bold for RIM. MY distinction between the two evolutionary paths rests with user feedback. Which users?

    Sure, once Apple's innovations evolved into iPhone, 2007, EVERYbody "wanted" one. Including VZW. Lol. Many thought, and STILL think, RIM should've dropped EVERYthing and made a better, bigger, cheaper, "iPhone killer". ... Ie Storm? Lol. Despite that the product hadn't demonstrated proven success till 2007? What sort of castigation might Mike have befallen had he wasted resources chasing a then unproven IP protected competitive innovation?

    Before Apple's innovation launched, what feedback to Apple or RIM remotely indicated that "every"body wanted all touch? Where were the monster threads advocating to be rid of those awful physical keys? Who was advocating to be rid of swappable batteries? Etc, etc

    Before 2007, where were streets filled with disaffected smartphone users chanting "Give us glass! Give us glass!!" ? ?? Lol.

    Tiny RIM simply NEVER stood a snowcone's chance to chase Apple's market. Wasn't happening even if RIM had started in 97. Let alone 07. Tiny niche was ALL they had to look forward to, 2007. Imo. A tiny niche that MIGHT have, maybe, been defended? ??

    BlackBerry's problem, imo, is that they listened to folks like you and vzw, diverted their attention from their own userbase and wrecked themselves chasing Apple's userbase with "less is more" BB10. Imo. Fwiw.

    Regardless, Mike's engineering perspective solved problems as perceived & presented by RIM's legacy-pager-enterprise userbase. Including from companies like mine. Steve's visionary perspective innovated a whole different perception. To BIG results. I just don't see that Mike and his company truly fit Clayton's "innovator's dilemma". Imo. Fwiw.
    lol what a load of crap. the problem is they took a whole year debating whether to launch BB10 or stick with prehistoric Java based OS and by that time it was too late. had they launched BB10 a year earlier, it may still be around
    01-15-22 08:00 PM
  4. idssteve's Avatar
    lol what a load of crap. the problem is they took a whole year debating whether to launch BB10 or stick with prehistoric Java based OS and by that time it was too late. had they launched BB10 a year earlier, it may still be around
    BB10's best chance was to deliver 10.3 early 2012. The decision had been solidified with stupidly premature bbos eol announcement, 2011.

    Given the green state of 10.0 in 2013, it's self evident that the extra year delay was simply getting the unfinished os out the door. Imo.

    I was trying to explain why "The Inovator's Dilemma" didn't apply to Mike as he thought. Sequestering QNX crew from BBOS experience also contributed to delays. Imo.
    01-15-22 08:31 PM
  5. Shuswap's Avatar
    Originally Posted by 3800


    lol what a load of crap. the problem is they took a whole year debating whether to launch BB10 or stick with prehistoric Java based OS and by that time it was too late. had they launched BB10 a year earlier, it may still be around
    First, that was rude.

    Second, Palm launched webOS in 2009, and it was still 'too late.' What we ended up with was Apple and an advertising company giving away an OS to every other manufacturer. It's hard to compete with a) the first mover and b) free.





    Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Shuswap; 01-15-22 at 10:00 PM.
    bh7171 likes this.
    01-15-22 09:42 PM
  6. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    First, that was rude.

    Second, Palm launched webOS in 2009, and it was still 'too late.' What we ended up with was Apple and an advertising company giving away an OS to every other manufacturer. It's hard to compete with a) the first mover and b) free.





    Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk
    Both OS replaced existing OS because of the funding model and the revenue model for Android/iOS were sustainable and fueled internalized growth. Both OS were literally self-fulfilling replacement solutions for a better mousetrap for consumers.

    Apple did a 2.0 improved version of BlackBerry Limited closed ecosystem with a broader demand mechanism, iTunes with a phone.

    Google did a better licensing model than Microsoft offered. While both companies, Apple, Google specifically, were hugely capitalized so was Microsoft and still a loser.
    Shuswap likes this.
    01-16-22 12:37 AM
  7. Shuswap's Avatar
    iTunes with a phone.
    Good points about capitalization and replacing existing OSes. I'd retract that first mover statement.

    But there was more to the iPhone than iTunes. It was an amazing device in comparison to the BlackBerry, WinMo, and Symbian phones. It's easy to forget, because it's normal now, but the crowd *gasped* when Steve Jobs first demonstrated scrolling with momentum and pinch to zoom. The limitations of the iPhone (which were numerous) didn't seem to matter after that. That being said, having iTunes on the phone just added to its appeal. That's why Apple kept killing the iTunes sync built into webOS.
    01-16-22 01:20 AM
  8. idssteve's Avatar
    Keeping track of which thread I'm in was much easier with Agent99 Opera Mini. Thread title doesn't stay visible on Pocket FF Focus. My apologies for mixing threads. Ug.

    My point as it applied a couple pages back is that innovating solutions that people never knew they needed is truly creative innovation.

    Im holding and using Pocket and Classic side by side this instant. VERY similar form factor. Yet, creatively innovative chassis sculpting makes Pocket "feel" smaller than its dimensions. Classic's screen is certainly larger and its ToolBelt & TrackPad prove WONDERFUL. Classic is faster typing, also.

    BUT typing isn't EVERYthing! Odd as that might sound from me. Lol. If it were I'd be seated at a KlicKey kb equipped PC. Mobile demands portability. Simple fact is that Pocket proves more easily grasped than even Classic! Thanks greatly to sophisticatedly "simple" creative chassis sculpting "innovations". Imo.
    bh7171 and Shuswap like this.
    01-16-22 01:23 AM
  9. bh7171's Avatar
    Keeping track of which thread I'm in was much easier with Agent99 Opera Mini. Thread title doesn't stay visible on Pocket FF Focus. My apologies for mixing threads. Ug.

    My point as it applied a couple pages back is that innovating solutions that people never knew they needed is truly creative innovation.

    Im holding and using Pocket and Classic side by side this instant. VERY similar form factor. Yet, creatively innovative chassis sculpting makes Pocket "feel" smaller than its dimensions. Classic's screen is certainly larger and its ToolBelt & TrackPad prove WONDERFUL. Classic is faster typing, also.

    BUT typing isn't EVERYthing! Odd as that might sound from me. Lol. If it were I'd be seated at a KlicKey kb equipped PC. Mobile demands portability. Simple fact is that Pocket proves more easily grasped than even Classic! Thanks greatly to sophisticatedly "simple" creative chassis sculpting "innovations". Imo.
    Its too bad UniHertz didn't utilize the entire screen real estate or source a SOC with 5G for a 2021 device. They utilized Android 11, which was great, but they failed to utilized all the screen space, which was disappointing and if not 5G capable then at least ensure you have all the LTE bands for carriers available.

    I like the rugged play as I think the premium phone trend of glass sandwiches that you have to case is completely illogical. But with that I think you also should have to have an IP rating.

    If UniHertz were to do a Pocket 2 with 5G, an all screen filled space, tweak what appears to be a PKB heading in the right direction and find a way to get an IP rating maybe they will find there way into more users hands. There is much to be said for refinement rather than complete redesigns.
    01-16-22 12:57 PM
  10. idssteve's Avatar
    Its too bad UniHertz didn't utilize the entire screen real estate or source a SOC with 5G for a 2021 device. They utilized Android 11, which was great, but they failed to utilized all the screen space, which was disappointing and if not 5G capable then at least ensure you have all the LTE bands for carriers available.

    I like the rugged play as I think the premium phone trend of glass sandwiches that you have to case is completely illogical. But with that I think you also should have to have an IP rating.

    If UniHertz were to do a Pocket 2 with 5G, an all screen filled space, tweak what appears to be a PKB heading in the right direction and find a way to get an IP rating maybe they will find there way into more users hands. There is much to be said for refinement rather than complete redesigns.
    Yep. There's room for Classic's 3.5" screen. Also a TrackPad? Pocket's BlueTooth mouse function proves seductively capable. Used it just now. Logitech M557 proves pretty sweet if anyone cares to try.

    If UH pursues TP2, add the above with 5G & B71, Qi charging, take a little fight out of the KB and I'm in for double TP1 $$ Especially if it might come preloaded & optimized for BlackBerry keyboard?

    Find some way to reassure privacy and I'm in for 10x. OM might just as well pack it in at that point. If not αlready. Lol. Just dreaming wide. Lol

    Also... while dreaming wide, pondering possibilities for approaching UH to crowdfund ongoing OS updates? ??
    the_boon likes this.
    01-16-22 01:28 PM
  11. to boldly go's Avatar
    And how much would you suggest they charge for making it just as you want it? And assume enough people would back it at that price of course.
    01-16-22 02:50 PM
  12. to boldly go's Avatar
    that was addressing bh7171
    01-16-22 02:51 PM
  13. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    And how much would you suggest they charge for making it just as you want it? And assume enough people would back it at that price of course.
    I believe that much of this is lost on those who ask for missing Unihertz features as if Unihertz wouldn't love to have access to all components at will even pre-COVID supply constraints.

    Many fail to realize that for Unihertz to deliver a 2022 BBMo Key3 equivalent, specs, design and finish quality, without current supply chain issues, would easily be a $799-$999 endeavor forgetting anything but regular Android with single OS upgrade.

    All one has to do is look at what similar companies have to charge and the scale required to achieve. These KickStarter projects startout by using excess supply of components from somewhere that can be acquired for distressed pricing for whatever reason, or paying MSRP single unit or similar 3rd party markedup pricing, so no discount, actual premium for desired components. Even in the best of times, components suppliers don't want or need Unihertz type companies for anything but unloading excess or undesired components for whatever reason.
    pdr733 likes this.
    01-16-22 03:30 PM
  14. the_boon's Avatar
    Its too bad UniHertz didn't utilize the entire screen real estate or source a SOC with 5G for a 2021 device. They utilized Android 11, which was great, but they failed to utilized all the screen space, which was disappointing and if not 5G capable then at least ensure you have all the LTE bands for carriers available.

    I like the rugged play as I think the premium phone trend of glass sandwiches that you have to case is completely illogical. But with that I think you also should have to have an IP rating.

    If UniHertz were to do a Pocket 2 with 5G, an all screen filled space, tweak what appears to be a PKB heading in the right direction and find a way to get an IP rating maybe they will find there way into more users hands. There is much to be said for refinement rather than complete redesigns.
    Unihertz:

    "We heard your valuable feedback, and are proud to announce a Pocket 2...erm, a giant rugged phone with a smartwatch on the back."
    01-16-22 03:37 PM
  15. idssteve's Avatar
    Email from UH: (cut & pasted) (glass editing SUX!!! Imo. Lol. )

    " We are glad to announce the update for Titan Pocket is now available, you can upgrade your device by “Settings-> About phone->Wireless Update”
    1. Update security patch to 2021-12-05
    2. Solve the problem that some widgets cannot be deleted
    3. Automatically disable the Scroll Assistant when the battery power is less than 5% to prevent touch interference.
    4. Solve the weak light issue after the screen is off
    5. In the SIM PIN lock interface, the user needs to press the ENTER key to input
    6. Support double-click the shortcut key to turn on the flashlight
    7. Optimize Kika input method
    8. Double-click the magic key in the editing interface and the touchpad can be used to move the cursor
    (There are three programmable keys: Sym key, Fn key, and PTT key. They can all be set as customized Magic keys. The path: Settings >Intelligent assistance > Shortcut settings > Programmable key > Magic keys) "


    Out the door to work. Will try this "magic key TouchPad" asap. Sure miss Bold's TrackPad for editing! Ug.
    Last edited by idssteve; 01-17-22 at 05:27 AM.
    the_boon and bh7171 like this.
    01-17-22 05:15 AM
  16. the_boon's Avatar
    Email from UH: (cut & pasted) (glass editing SUX!!! Imo. Lol. )

    " We are glad to announce the update for Titan Pocket is now available, you can upgrade your device by “Settings-> About phone->Wireless Update”
    1. Update security patch to 2021-12-05
    2. Solve the problem that some widgets cannot be deleted
    3. Automatically disable the Scroll Assistant when the battery power is less than 5% to prevent touch interference.
    4. Solve the weak light issue after the screen is off
    5. In the SIM PIN lock interface, the user needs to press the ENTER key to input
    6. Support double-click the shortcut key to turn on the flashlight
    7. Optimize Kika input method
    8. Double-click the magic key in the editing interface and the touchpad can be used to move the cursor
    (There are three programmable keys: Sym key, Fn key, and PTT key. They can all be set as customized Magic keys. The path: Settings >Intelligent assistance > Shortcut settings > Programmable key > Magic keys) "


    Out the door to work. Will try this "magic key TouchPad" asap. Sure miss Bold's TrackPad for editing! Ug.
    Well it's about time the thing saw a security update!

    Thanks UH!
    01-17-22 07:50 AM
  17. Sporkguy3's Avatar
    Yup, just downloaded the security patch this morning. Now the security is more up to date than my work phone, the Galaxy s10e.

    On a side note the phone randomly started forcing me to hold the shift and alt keys for them to work instead of tapping them. Does anyone know how to change that setting?
    01-17-22 08:37 AM
  18. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    I believe that much of this is lost on those who ask for missing Unihertz features as if Unihertz wouldn't love to have access to all components at will even pre-COVID supply constraints.

    Many fail to realize that for Unihertz to deliver a 2022 BBMo Key3 equivalent, specs, design and finish quality, without current supply chain issues, would easily be a $799-$999 endeavor forgetting anything but regular Android with single OS upgrade.

    All one has to do is look at what similar companies have to charge and the scale required to achieve. These KickStarter projects startout by using excess supply of components from somewhere that can be acquired for distressed pricing for whatever reason, or paying MSRP single unit or similar 3rd party markedup pricing, so no discount, actual premium for desired components. Even in the best of times, components suppliers don't want or need Unihertz type companies for anything but unloading excess or undesired components for whatever reason.
    One advantage Unihertz has... is they aren't like most the other Kickstarter that announce a phone, spend years doing something and in the end deliver something that has been value engineered from the product that was originally announced years ago. And that was true even before COVID...

    But none of these seem to be growing ventures...
    01-17-22 08:57 AM
  19. the_boon's Avatar
    One advantage Unihertz has... is they aren't like most the other Kickstarter that announce a phone, spend years doing something and in the end deliver something that has been value engineered from the product that was originally announced years ago. And that was true even before COVID...

    But none of these seem to be growing ventures...
    The Titan Pocket has been removed from Amazon. On eBay it's still at $995...

    Could they really have sold them all?

    Interesting...
    01-17-22 09:08 AM
  20. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    BB10's best chance was to deliver 10.3 early 2012. The decision had been solidified with stupidly premature bbos eol announcement, 2011.

    Given the green state of 10.0 in 2013, it's self evident that the extra year delay was simply getting the unfinished os out the door. Imo.

    I was trying to explain why "The Inovator's Dilemma" didn't apply to Mike as he thought. Sequestering QNX crew from BBOS experience also contributed to delays. Imo.
    I think 2008 was the latest BlackBerry could have done anything... and still would have had a hard time competing with Android and iOS. Might have carved out and held onto enterprise market a little longer... But they'd never have been able to create their own ecosystem.
    01-17-22 09:13 AM
  21. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    The Titan Pocket has been removed from Amazon. On eBay it's still at $995...

    Could they really have sold them all?

    Interesting...
    Or they didn't have much interest during their 2nd phase. But more likely have run into issues with production.... labor or components - or both. If just labor, they'll come back with more later. If components... that's an issue, as changes would require new testing and certification.

    You might have sold yours a little too soon....
    01-17-22 09:34 AM
  22. idssteve's Avatar
    I think 2008 was the latest BlackBerry could have done anything... and still would have had a hard time competing with Android and iOS. Might have carved out and held onto enterprise market a little longer... But they'd never have been able to create their own ecosystem.
    Hmm... what year was Storm? Lol.
    01-17-22 09:40 AM
  23. the_boon's Avatar
    Or they didn't have much interest during their 2nd phase. But more likely have run into issues with production.... labor or components - or both. If just labor, they'll come back with more later. If components... that's an issue, as changes would require new testing and certification.

    You might have sold yours a little too soon....
    Yeah I imagine prices will jump if this thing becomes rare too
    01-17-22 10:26 AM
  24. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Hmm... what year was Storm? Lol.
    What does it matter though? All roads from 2007-2008 still lead to same endpoint at roughly same time. Problem was that BBOS has OS had been fully maximized from a capabilities standpoint. Once Android/iOS had come out, development would have declined to zero anyway. It was a large part of the mobile OS wars in general. Microsoft, BlackBerry, Palm, and Nokia all had established mobile OS in the mid-2000s but developed new mobile OS to respond to Android/iOS for same reasons. All the original mobile OS were competing for developers first in order to compete to even satisfy existing customers second.

    Since BBOS wasn't in a vacuum, it faced the same resource limitations. Standing in place would have rendered it falling behind like the old joke for a volunteer to step forward.
    01-17-22 10:51 AM
  25. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Hmm... what year was Storm? Lol.
    Exactly, the STORM... BlackBerry got caught with their pants down and were forced by VZW to do something they weren't ready to do. But then, why didn't BlackBerry realize then they needed something more going forward?

    Google didn't even need their lauch device to fail, they watched Steve Jobs launch the iPhone in early 2007... and they recognized they were on the wrong track and changed directions that day - bet they spent billions making all the changes necessary. Caused them to delay till 2008, but that put them on a much better footing going forward. Why did VZW have to force BlackBerry to make the Storm? Why didn't BlackBerry recognize the limitations BBOS presented in 2008 - plenty of "fans" on CrackBerry saw it back then?

    I don't think launching in 2012 or even 2011 would have made any difference. In the end, even 2008 would have been too little, too late and BlackBerry would still not have had the POWER or MONEY needed to build an ecosystem.
    01-17-22 10:55 AM
3,397 ... 129130131132133 ...

Similar Threads

  1. Migrating from Key2 to Key2
    By mngreen in forum BlackBerry KEY2
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 12-16-21, 07:43 PM
  2. Passport as Wiffi only Device in 2022?
    By jrsva2008 in forum BlackBerry Passport
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 12-15-21, 01:47 PM
  3. TCL support: New Key2
    By John Albert in forum BlackBerry KEY2
    Replies: 43
    Last Post: 12-12-21, 11:22 AM
  4. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 12-09-21, 06:39 PM
  5. Notes From Q10 to Key2
    By daneverdier@ymail.com in forum BlackBerry Q10
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 12-09-21, 02:42 PM
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD