1. electrosam's Avatar
    Hello !

    We can see Android devices beating BlackBerry and news also said RIM is going down.
    I am a BlackBerry Curve 3G user for more than a month.
    It was a fascinating experience so far, but now I would like to discuss disappointing points of BB.

    Android is true freedom, you get Push Mail without any need of special plans such as BIS/BES. I agree that BlackBerry was first mobile to have Push email service. But now when many email providers provide IMAP protocol for free, why blackberry still wants users to invest more money in BIS Plan ? BlackBerry should open all its feature if they want to compete with Android. No one wants to put extra money for something which is offered for free by other devices.

    Next thing is Apps. BlackBerry's App market was the biggest at a time in past. Now it is not. We can see lots of Apps for iPhone and Android only. As more people prefer Android now, developers are interested in developing Android apps than BB. After wasting 4 hours or so, I didn't yet found a concrete solution for free VOIP WiFi Calls from BB to PC. Apps like Fring which are for Android provide that service. You get a dilemma when you see certain nice app is not available for your BB but for Android.

    An example that Developers are less interested in making BB apps is- Trillian, All in One IM is free for Android. But it costs 5$ for BB App.

    There are disadvantages of Android as well. QWERTY of BlackBerry is awesome, I know, but its not everything to make it a best mobile. Android is more power hungry due to Touch Screen. So on Keypad and Battery Life, BlackBerry scores.

    Next thing is price. People who get phones under contract won't understand this issue. In many countries, there is no option of contract. You need to pay full amount for the phone. BlackBerry Torch is for 28000 INR in India. Which is around 620 $ a fair expensive amount in developing countries. If we compare even a QWERTY Android high end phone such as Moto Milestone is for 22000, lesser than Torch.

    Compare Torch and Curve 3G. Both have same kind of Processor and can run OS 6. Torch has more memory and Touch screen. So for those just two more features, do you pay double amount ? Yes, Curve 3G is for 14000 INR which is right the half of Torch. This does not fit in any equation. So BlackBerry is damn overpriced.

    We can see Open Source services getting over us. Because their main aim is to provide freedom for everybody.

    So I really expect that RIM should allow All BlackBerry features on Generic Data Plan. If the can't, they should at least allow configuration of IMAP Email Accounts without need of BIS/BES.

    What do you think guys ?
    K Bear and SevereDeceit like this.
    05-24-11 08:25 AM
  2. mbrouill's Avatar
    I am unsure what will win out in my pocket at this time. I carry a Curve as my personal phone, but was just issued a Droid 2 Global as a work phone. Time will tell if the Droid could win me over to the dark side...
    05-24-11 08:38 AM
  3. elvin1983's Avatar
    Last time I checked, the data plan for an Android is the same price as it is for the BIS plan. Also, Android push e-mail works great if you're a Gmail user, but not so much if you are with a different e-mail provider. You can still get your mail, but it's certainly not push, and it's not free either.

    While Android is open source, it does have it's issues as we've seen with the number of malicious applications that have worked their way into the Android Market. While Google has been fairly on top of it, and has cleared them out in a fairly timely fashion, they haven't fixed the problem. Also, while the BB platform may not be open source in the same manner as Android, it does support some open source platforms.
    BlackBerry - WebWorks Platform and Open Source

    I don't know what to tell you regarding the prices on the devices. Here in the states, retail price for the Torch is close to $600, same for an iPhone 4, Droid X... The Droid 2 is a little cheaper, but not by much.
    kbz1960 and RescueCop like this.
    05-24-11 08:43 AM
  4. skfreak's Avatar
    Android is true freedom, you get Push Mail without any need of special plans such as BIS/BES. I agree that BlackBerry was first mobile to have Push email service. But now when many email providers provide IMAP protocol for free, why blackberry still wants users to invest more money in BIS Plan ? BlackBerry should open all its feature if they want to compete with Android. No one wants to put extra money for something which is offered for free by other devices.
    This - for me - is the most annoying thing about the BB. I really hope they will loosen this restriction.

    Last time I checked, the data plan for an Android is the same price as it is for the BIS plan.
    Not in my country. There is a charge for Dataplan and an additional charge for BES/BIS + BES/BIS is *not* available on Prepaid-Plans ;(

    While Android is open source, it does have it's issues as we've seen with the number of malicious applications that have worked their way into the Android Market. While Google has been fairly on top of it, and has cleared them out in a fairly timely fashion, they haven't fixed the problem.
    This indeed is true and speaks much for BB.
    05-24-11 09:28 AM
  5. tbrenn's Avatar
    Last time I checked, the data plan for an Android is the same price as it is for the BIS plan. Also, Android push e-mail works great if you're a Gmail user, but not so much if you are with a different e-mail provider. You can still get your mail, but it's certainly not push, and it's not free either.

    While Android is open source, it does have it's issues as we've seen with the number of malicious applications that have worked their way into the Android Market. While Google has been fairly on top of it, and has cleared them out in a fairly timely fashion, they haven't fixed the problem. Also, while the BB platform may not be open source in the same manner as Android, it does support some open source platforms.
    BlackBerry - WebWorks Platform and Open Source

    I don't know what to tell you regarding the prices on the devices. Here in the states, retail price for the Torch is close to $600, same for an iPhone 4, Droid X... The Droid 2 is a little cheaper, but not by much.
    Spot On.

    a BIS data plan costs no more than a regular smartphone dataplan... the only advantage of an android toy is that you could not get a data plan, and use your "push" email only over wifi, whereas the bb requires a BIS account to do so, even over wifi... don't know why anyone would get a smartphone without a dataplan, but that's just me...
    05-24-11 09:30 AM
  6. howarmat's Avatar
    BIS does cost more in other countries on top the data plan. US and Canada does not have the addtional cost. there is more to the world than NA
    05-24-11 09:40 AM
  7. ADGrant's Avatar
    Spot On.

    a BIS data plan costs no more than a regular smartphone dataplan... the only advantage of an android toy is that you could not get a data plan, and use your "push" email only over wifi, whereas the bb requires a BIS account to do so, even over wifi... don't know why anyone would get a smartphone without a dataplan, but that's just me...
    One problem with requiring BIS is you can't then use a cheap pre-pay SIM when travelling outside the US. As soon as you pop in that SIM, no BIS access even over wi-fi.
    05-24-11 09:53 AM
  8. rdiddy_25's Avatar
    [QUOTE=skfreak;6355479]This - for me - is the most annoying thing about the BB. I really hope they will loosen this restriction.

    That WON'T ever happen. That's why BB is the most secure device/OS available. BB doesn't track or steal your personal info like Android & iPhone.
    05-24-11 09:59 AM
  9. SmakBerry's Avatar
    BIS does cost more in other countries on top the data plan. US and Canada does not have the addtional cost. there is more to the world than NA
    Is that the carrier increasing the prices? I'm curious to know the reasoning as to why we don't pay more.
    Not that I'm complaining. I love my plan and feel I have the freedom I required.
    05-24-11 10:09 AM
  10. tbrenn's Avatar
    One problem with requiring BIS is you can't then use a cheap pre-pay SIM when travelling outside the US. As soon as you pop in that SIM, no BIS access even over wi-fi.
    You would need a prepaid SIM with a BIS option... even traveling inside the US, if you get a prepaid SIM without BIS, you will get the same thing... your BIS information is on your SIM that has the BIS account...

    That WON'T ever happen. That's why BB is the most secure device/OS available. BB doesn't track or steal your personal info like Android & iPhone.
    Precicely! Couldn't agree more...
    05-24-11 10:13 AM
  11. Laura Knotek's Avatar
    Is that the carrier increasing the prices? I'm curious to know the reasoning as to why we don't pay more.
    Not that I'm complaining. I love my plan and feel I have the freedom I required.
    I suspect that North American carriers do not charge extra, since they subsidize the cost of smartphones (whether BlackBerry, Android, iPhone, Win7/WinMo) and require 2-3 year contracts. However, in many countries the carriers do not offer any subsidies, and the customer needs to pay full retail for the device, like the OP mentioned.

    In many countries, the customer is allowed to choose whether he/she even wants a data plan (and pay extra for certain types of data plans such as BIS). In the US, that is not an option for most major carriers. AT&T, VZW, and Sprint will not even allow a customer to use any smartphone without a data plan for that particular device. The data plans for smartphones on most major US carriers are required even if the customer pays full retail for the device or buys a used device.
    howarmat, SmakBerry and scorpiodsu like this.
    05-24-11 10:15 AM
  12. SmakBerry's Avatar
    Makes sense, but opens up a bunch of other questions relating, but I'll save that for another time. :P
    05-24-11 10:38 AM
  13. ADGrant's Avatar
    You would need a prepaid SIM with a BIS option... even traveling inside the US, if you get a prepaid SIM without BIS, you will get the same thing... your BIS information is on your SIM that has the BIS account...
    I wouldn't need a pre-paid SIM in the US, I have my regular AT&T SIM. When travelling outside the US, the cheapest pre-paid SIM cards are not available with BIS. Even if I can get a BIS enabled pre-paid SIM, I would still need to register the PIN I beleive.

    A non-BB smartphone is so much easier in this regard. Simply pop in any SIM with data or just use wi-fi.
    05-24-11 12:05 PM
  14. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Some countries are better then others, in UK I can pick up an old blackberry for �5(my old 7230) on ebay, buy a prepayed sim, put �5(my old 7230) on it and I'm good to go for a month and all it needs is �5 every month.
    Others not so good.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    05-24-11 12:36 PM
  15. electrosam's Avatar
    There is no extra charge for BIS plan in US.
    But in India, BIS plan costs about 4 times expensive than generic data plan. Vodafone India has generic data plan for 95 INR but BIS plan for 399 INR. And BIS plan only allows BB services, browsing is not included. Any app that uses APN or direct TCP is charged as per generic plan. So this becomes costly.

    The resaon operaters charge more because they need to install seperate BB specific servers to enable BIS services. And unlike US, India doesn't have lots of BB user to provide BIS services at no extra cost.

    The thing is when Gmail provides IMAP for free, why BB doesn't allow us to use it. Its non of BB business. If someone is having non gmail account that requires BB push service he will get BIS plan. But why us who want Gmail IMAP use.

    Android is just getting started. Open source projects have bugs and issues but they are fixed very soon.
    BB is limiting their scope by putting restriction on device features, usability and apps.

    RIM needs to understand that BB is no longer a magic for which people will tolerate paying extra money and subscribe to BIS plans.

    There are plenty of devices out there at cheaper cost providing more features.

    Someone also said BB is very secure and Android is not. I doubt so. Why would leading manufacturers choose Android then ?

    I bought Curve 3G because I wanted to give a try to Blackberry.
    But I experience that it is a limited feature phone which is heavy on wallet. BB was awesome phone once a time, no doubt, but now its not. Magic of BB is fading out.

    You could read in news and surveys that many people now prefer Android than BB, even in the US.

    So I guess my next phone would be an Android with physical QWERTY.

    Till then I hope RIM will open there so far closed scope and restrictions.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    05-24-11 01:43 PM
  16. electrosam's Avatar
    And even BBM is not a great thing now. Plenty of better messenger are out there. You see, messenger is to keep connected with our friends without boundries. But BBM is putting limitation and boundries. Friends must have a BB. Which is not good.

    RIM should also unlock BBM for generic data plan and make it all in one messenger. We should be able to add buddies from all I'm networks in one app. Rather than running multiple apps.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    05-24-11 01:46 PM
  17. papped's Avatar
    zzzz....

    Freedom? Seriously?

    What's next, calling other platforms slavery...

    Also I think your timeline is kinda screwed up. BB didn't have a unified app market until later than most platforms and it was not the largest. Symbian had a larger app market for sure going way back.

    Also your "double the price" for different BB models doesn't necessarily add up as carrier subsidization is not the same in all countries (or even carriers)... You can easily find android phones that have similar (or worse) specs that cost equal or more compared to other android phones.

    Price is based on subsidization, not just specs... You can't just assume 1:1.
    05-24-11 02:16 PM
  18. electrosam's Avatar
    Spot On.

    a BIS data plan costs no more than a regular smartphone dataplan... the only advantage of an android toy is that you could not get a data plan, and use your "push" email only over wifi, whereas the bb requires a BIS account to do so, even over wifi... don't know why anyone would get a smartphone without a dataplan, but that's just me...

    Android Push Mail works on Generic Data plan of Network as well. Not just on WiFi.
    05-24-11 02:24 PM
  19. electrosam's Avatar
    Is that the carrier increasing the prices? I'm curious to know the reasoning as to why we don't pay more.
    Not that I'm complaining. I love my plan and feel I have the freedom I required.
    The reason carriers charge more because they need to install separate BB servers to allow BIS services. In the US more people use BB so carriers can afford allowing BIS services at no extra cost.

    But in developing countries like India, carriers charge customers for BIS services. BIS plan costs 4 times more than generic data plan. Vodafone India has Generic Data plan for 95 INR but BIS for 399 INR.
    05-24-11 02:27 PM
  20. electrosam's Avatar
    Makes sense, but opens up a bunch of other questions relating, but I'll save that for another time. :P
    If you have got a question, ask it out !
    05-24-11 02:29 PM
  21. electrosam's Avatar

    Price is based on subsidization, not just specs... You can't just assume 1:1.
    So price has no finite base ?
    They randomly decide prices for phones ?

    You see, what Torch provides you extra ?
    Rather than spending 28000 INR on Torch, one could get Moto Milestone, SE Xperia X10, HTC Desire, etc. Which have no bounding as BB has with BIS plans and all.
    05-24-11 02:32 PM
  22. papped's Avatar
    So price has no finite base ?
    They randomly decide prices for phones ?

    You see, what Torch provides you extra ?
    Rather than spending 28000 INR on Torch, one could get Moto Milestone, SE Xperia X10, HTC Desire, etc. Which have no bounding as BB has with BIS plans and all.
    I take it you don't follow production costs too much. Cost to produce something is NOT simply how new the specs are.

    Go look at the cost teardown analysis of different phones and you will see that some phones with lower specs can have an equal or higher cost to manufacture as phones with better specs.

    There is more involved in manufacturing prices than simply how new your chipset is...

    And it's 2 layered:
    1 - MSRP
    2 - Subsidized price

    The subsidized price is based on stuff like how marketable the carrier thinks the phone is. Is the iphone lower specd than all other phones? No. Then why is it subsidized more than any other phones on AT&T? Because of # of customers it pulls in, and mandates by Apple, other political junk, etc. IT IS NOT BECAUSE OF SPECS.

    All you keep doing is going back to BB vs Android argument.
    05-24-11 02:40 PM
  23. electrosam's Avatar
    I take it you don't follow production costs too much. Cost to produce something is NOT simply how new the specs are.

    Go look at the cost teardown analysis of different phones and you will see that some phones with lower specs can have an equal or higher cost to manufacture as phones with better specs.

    There is more involved in manufacturing prices than simply how new your chipset is...

    And it's 2 layered:
    1 - MSRP
    2 - Subsidized price

    The subsidized price is based on stuff like how marketable the carrier thinks the phone is. Is the iphone lower specd than all other phones? No. Then why is it subsidized more than any other phones on AT&T? Because of # of customers it pulls in, and mandates by Apple, other political junk, etc. IT IS NOT BECAUSE OF SPECS.

    All you keep doing is going back to BB vs Android argument.
    Why should I care what it costs for RIM.
    There are two products A and B.
    A is cheaper has more features, no plan bindings, more apps.
    B is costly, comparatively less features, plan bindings, less apps.

    I would get A, because its beneficial for me.

    Are you RIM employee or something ? Its the thing to be cared by RIM not users.
    05-24-11 02:45 PM
  24. papped's Avatar
    There you go again with the BB vs Android and glossed over everything else...

    I AM NOT PROMOTING BB. I own an Android phone and not a BB. You are being ignorant.
    05-24-11 02:47 PM
  25. StuartV's Avatar
    Wow. There sure is a lot of misinformation here.

    For the last 3 years I have been a loyal and rabid BB user. I went from a Pearl to a Storm to a Storm 2. Through it all, I have been paying for Hosted Exchange for my personal domain and paying for BES from my Hosted Exchange provider and BB Enterprise data plan from Verizon.

    That gave me:

    Push email and calendar, contacts, and notes sync from my personal email.
    No push email or calendar or contacts or notes from my work email. Work has BES, but you can't have one BB hooked to 2 BES's.
    No way to play WMV (Windows Media Video) files on my phone.
    No way to download any attachments bigger than 3MB.
    3G data speeds that normally benchmarked around 700Kbps downloads.
    No 3G data access while on a voice call.
    A browser that is slow, clunky, and hard to use (and the option for Opera Mini, which is different, but not better).
    No support for Flash.
    Video from YouTube is low-quality and flaky to watch.

    It cost me:

    $10/mo for Host Exchange
    $10/mo for BES from HE provider
    $45/mo for BES data plan from VZW

    Last week, I switched to an HTC Thunderbolt (4G LTE Android phone).

    I now have:

    ActiveSync synchronization of my personal email (i.e. push mail), calendar, and contacts
    ActiveSync synchronization of my work email (i.e. push mail), calendar, and contacts
    Two separate Inboxes on my phone, so I can view my work and personal email separately (though I could choose to have them all show in one Inbox with color-coding to tell them apart)
    One Calendar on my phone that shows my personal calendar entries, my work calendar entries, and my Facebook calendar entries all combined and color-coded to I can tell which are which at a glance
    One Phonebook that I have configured to only show my personal Contacts, but it's just a couple of taps to have it show any combination of personal, work, and Facebook contacts.
    4G data speeds that average around 3.5Mbps up and down. I've gotten as high as 8Mbps down.
    3G data speeds that average around 800Kbps.
    Simultaneous 3G (and 4G) data while on voice calls.
    I can play WMV files on my phone (people email them to me all the time).
    I can download attachments of almost any size.
    The browser is fast and easy to use. I have not yet found any need for any other browser than stock.
    Flash is supported.
    Video from YouTube is high quality and very stable.
    Free Mobile WiFi Hotspot for up to 8 devices (at least until 6/15).
    (and all of that just using the stock software that came on the phone)

    And that costs me:

    $10/mo for Host Exchange
    $2/mo for ActiveSync from HE provider
    $30/mo for Unlimited Personal data plan from VZW

    My brother is happy to use GMail and he gets basically all the same stuff I do except he doesn't pay the extra $12/mo for HE and ActiveSync. His Thunderbolt is setup to use ActiveSync to get to his GMail account for free.

    In other words, I took advantage of the best, maximum capabilities that BB had to offer for messaging (to an individual consumer) and it doesn't hold a candle to what an individual consumer can get out of an Android device - and for significantly cheaper.
    K Bear likes this.
    05-24-11 03:16 PM
211 123 ...
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD