1. J-Caum's Avatar
    The title sounds confusing, but here is my plan. I know the hardcore BB fans (moreso than myself) are going to hate me for suggesting this, but why not look at Blackberry's strengths - the physical device, the keyboard (for the keyboard addicts), and the security.

    Why not pull an Amazon and make an Android-derived device that runs on Android, but touts the patented security that Blackberry security users enjoy? This allows the keyboard addicts et al to enjoy the Blackberry device in the best state that it can be.

    Let's face it - your OS (3, 4, 5, 6, 7, OS10, PBOS) sucks. Had great potential, but then took a turn for terrible and your users started leaving in droves for Android or iPhone devices. The hard reality at this point in time is you can never become an equal third party in the same neighborhood as Android and iOS - look at the same issue Windows Phone is having, no matter how great it is. If the apps aren't there, the people aren't either.

    If you focused your energy instead of on 'reinventing the wheel' to contributing to the best device it can be, it would become a top-tier device that organizations want to use again. But it needs to be from an OS that already has the many apps available to it. Sure... we can download the apk from android, sign it as a .bar and sideload the app even though we aren't the owner of said intellectual property. Yeah... I'll tell my mom how to do that... she'll love calling me every time she has to update CandyCrush. Work with Google. Build a derivative that you can call your own - giving Google royalties where due of course - and spark the attention on Blackberry in a positive light once again. It's time to innovate... not start from scratch. Give users a great secure device with a kick@ss keyboard and the apps their friends are using at the bleeding edge of release... not 3 years after losing interest.

    Please help you help us, help everyone.
    06-10-14 09:25 PM
  2. diegonei's Avatar
    Let's face it: You don't quite know what you're talking about if you say BB10 sucks.
    06-10-14 09:54 PM
  3. eddy_berry's Avatar
    It seems like every month someone comes along and says "Hey I have a great idea, BB should make a secure Android!"

    They need to stick with their guns. They have it right. BB10 will become a better OS than Android.
    06-10-14 10:06 PM
  4. zyphen's Avatar
    Please describe how this plan generates revenue for BlackBerry.

    At this point in time, Samsung is the only company moving Android based handsets and generating solid revenues. The last market-share report I have seen shows BlackBerry ahead of Sony or HTC or Motorola's Android offerings. You are proposing that, just to get some android apps, BlackBerry should get lost in the sea of Android based handset makers (which doesn't seem very innovative compared to building an OS from scratch).

    Also, as I understand it, security on a BlackBerry device starts in the hardware layer itself and builds secured layers from there through every layer of the kernel and OS (see the failed attempts to "hack" the PlayBook bootrom and load android on seemingly similar to android handset hardware). All this to say that starting with Android as the OS is inherently less secure right off the bat, and this is before any discussion of how safe the actual apps for Android are.

    My thoughts on BB10 OS from the innovation perspective: If IOS8 has to add features already found in BB10, I am pretty sure I know where the innovations materialized first. This is not to say that BlackBerry Innovated all the features, but it is disingenuous to say that BB10 is not an innovative OS.

    Posted via CB10
    06-10-14 10:13 PM
  5. KarlosSpicyWienr's Avatar
    Actually, if your running 10.2.1 or above you can just go to amazon and download their store and boom, all the android apps you need (direct apk installs, no need to make bars) and no worries about Google services stopping the app from working as amazon don't use them, as far as I know. All apps I have tried have worked fine. So to be fair, what you are suggesting, they have already done, just not "officially."

    Posted via CB10 via Z10STL100-3/10.3.0.296
    06-10-14 10:17 PM
  6. Aljean Thein's Avatar
    I stopped reading after saying "Let's face it - your OS (3, 4, 5, 6, 7, OS10, PBOS) sucks"
    southlander, sugbo, rflan7 and 3 others like this.
    06-11-14 12:42 AM
  7. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    The last market-share report I have seen shows BlackBerry ahead of Sony or HTC or Motorola's Android offerings.
    Please share your source, because everything in the tech press would completely disagree.
    sentimentGX4 and kbz1960 like this.
    06-11-14 10:31 AM
  8. Dave Bourque's Avatar
    No... improve the runtime and stick to the great BB10 os... it's not that far from full compatibility in android apps.

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.3175
    Heinz Katchup likes this.
    06-11-14 10:40 AM
  9. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Why not pull an Amazon and make an Android-derived device that runs on Android, but touts the patented security that Blackberry security users enjoy? This allows the keyboard addicts et al to enjoy the Blackberry device in the best state that it can be.
    This would have been a great idea - in 2008-9, when BB was still strong and when this could have resulted in BB putting out their first Android phones in 2010 (even without "full" security in place at that time). It would have saved BB billions of dollars, tens of millions of customers, and there would be no "app gap."

    But it's really far too late for this plan now. BB is still supporting, and even producing, BBOS phones, plus it has its hands full trying to work on BB10. There's no one left over to work on a third OS, and no money to hire people to do so. BB bet the (hardware business) farm on BB10, and whenever they make their last smartphone, it will almost certainly have BB10 on it. To change now would be to admit to everyone that all of those billions of dollars of losses were due to a single mistake, and I don't think the BB boardroom is willing to admit that.

    BB10 is becoming a fine OS, and certainly offers excellent security especially with BES, but it's way too late to the game, and regardless of the OS or the hardware it runs on, it has no ecosystem of any substance, and it's that lack of an ecosystem, along with the negative brand image, that is doing the most to prevent consumer adoption.

    BB has a fundamental flaw: it's biggest strength, robust security, simply isn't a priority for consumers, and maintaining that security forces BB to make many decisions that contradict what the consumer market is looking for, which is ease of use (plenty of apps in the native app store, easy access to data, etc.).

    I'll give you one example: if you install WhatsApp, it will read your contact list and automatically connect you to other WhatsApp users. Nothing could be easier, and this fact alone is responsible for WhatsApp's tremendous growth, and thus its value on the marketplace. BBM requires PINs to be exchanged and, until recently, to be manually entered. That's more "secure", and has certain advantages, but doesn't come anywhere close to the ease-of-use of WhatsApp, and is why WhatsApp continues to grow while BBM continues to languish. Consumers like security, but not at the expense of convenience.

    And what's even worse for BB is that even the business world is being driven more and more by consumer demand than ever. The whole BYOD revolution has displaced BB all over, in everything but highly regulated businesses (government, big government contractors, and a few others), and consumer desire will continue to pressure the smartphone market in all areas.

    This would be fine if BB could sell their devices to regulated businesses at a huge premium because they were secure, much like a high-end car is sold at a huge premium because it is hand-built, but there is too much competition and pricing pressure for that in the smartphone market, especially for a player who only 6 months ago was fighting in the consumer market with consumer pricing.

    Many BB fans hate the idea that BB should have gone with Android in the first place, but from a business perspective, that's exactly what they should have done. And if they had, you'd be hearing most BB fans saying "no other Android is close to BB's" and "BB is the king of Android phones!"

    But that's all fantasy. The reality is that BB is stuck with BB10 now, for better or for worse. They pushed "all-in" with BB10, and that's how the device story will end, one way or another.
    ljfong and kbz1960 like this.
    06-11-14 11:01 AM
  10. ui4life's Avatar
    Well said, a secure and productive system that can also run those must have Android apps. Do it well and BlackBerry have something to take to market.

    If the reason 10.3 production is only coming to new devices is because they rock the runtime real nice then I'd bet the farm too.
    06-11-14 11:58 AM
  11. kbz1960's Avatar
    Well said, a secure and productive system that can also run those must have Android apps. Do it well and BlackBerry have something to take to market.

    If the reason 10.3 production is only coming to new devices is because they rock the runtime real nice then I'd bet the farm too.
    Well if 10.3.1 doesn't come to my old Z30 the company can count one less customer.
    06-11-14 12:11 PM
  12. zyphen's Avatar
    Please share your source, because everything in the tech press would completely disagree.
    http://crackberry.com/torontonians-h...ove-blackberry

    Source linked above.

    Posted via CB10
    06-11-14 12:15 PM
  13. zyphen's Avatar
    While I agree that convenience is a huge factor in consumer sales, I think we will start seeing more and more of a push to secure communications and securing our data. The web as it was a few years back was a wild wild west of information up for grabs, and we are just starting to see (not that this hasn't been happening in the background for a while now) an emphasis being placed on security, for example the gaining traction of 2 factor authentication and encryption for websites. Security is a long term asset to BlackBerry and one that more and more are willing to give up that modicum of convenience for.

    Your example of WhatsApp fits well here: this is an application that, while very popular and convenient, is one that nobody I know (I know; anecdotal evidence is just evidence of an anecdote!) is willing to install and hand over their contact information to a third party with questionable security measures surrounding their data store in return for very minimal feature set compared to WhatsApp's competition. The risk in this case is not worth the reward to me or them.

    I would still maintain that going the Android OS clone direction would have even less revenue potential and high risk of attaching your core competency (OS development) to a third party which is incidentally somewhat of a competitor in the space.



    Posted via CB10
    06-11-14 12:30 PM
  14. vinniesworld's Avatar
    Lets face it:
    Android initial release was September 23, 2008
    iOS initial release was June 29, 2007
    BB10 initial release was January 30, 2013

    I don't think I really need to say anymore to anyone who immediate jumps in to say BB10 Sucks. Which lets face it is the only one that matters in comparison to Android and iOS. 4,5,6,7 are legacy OS's that have no relevance to BB10 what so ever.
    I really don't get these threads that say 'Hey what about sticking Android on a BlackBerry'.

    Provide Apps they will come! Is that all people think about these days. First thing I look at on my BlackBerry is the productivity and security not how Candy Crush runs or how many photo's I can cram on Instagram in any one sitting.

    Not sure where this thread is heading to be quite honest.
    Mr.G_under and zyphen like this.
    06-11-14 12:41 PM
  15. diegonei's Avatar
    Well if 10.3.1 doesn't come to my old Z30 the company can count one less customer.
    Quite sure we are at no risk of losing you, KB.
    kbz1960 likes this.
    06-11-14 03:06 PM
  16. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Okay, those numbers are JUST for North America, and are lumping in BBOS with BB10, and BBOS has been outselling BB10 by a 3:1 ratio over the last 6 months. So, divide that 6% by 4 and you get 1.5%, which is BB10's share of the market. Compare that to any of the Android manufacturers to get the real story.

    And the world-wide numbers put BB at an even greater disadvantage in terms of marketshare.
    06-11-14 07:31 PM
  17. Mr.G_under's Avatar
    Troy Tiscareno....why do you even waste your time being here on Crackberry when you do not own a BlackBerry device? You are just as good as the negative press contributors out there. You write your these stories like you know everything and strategically incline. Mate, if you are such an entrepreneur why is your venture not mentioned anywhere across the internet?

    You ask for others to provide a source to their contribution yet your assumptions are not supported with any credible source; other than your pure dislike to BlackBerry devices and lost claim that you were a BlackBerry user.
    Toodeurep likes this.
    06-11-14 07:51 PM
  18. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    While I agree that convenience is a huge factor in consumer sales, I think we will start seeing more and more of a push to secure communications and securing our data. The web as it was a few years back was a wild wild west of information up for grabs, and we are just starting to see (not that this hasn't been happening in the background for a while now) an emphasis being placed on security, for example the gaining traction of 2 factor authentication and encryption for websites. Security is a long term asset to BlackBerry and one that more and more are willing to give up that modicum of convenience for.
    Then why are fewer and fewer people buying BB10? And why are fewer and fewer corporations buying BES, and going with arguably less-secure MDM products?

    Your example of WhatsApp fits well here: this is an application that, while very popular and convenient, is one that nobody I know (I know; anecdotal evidence is just evidence of an anecdote!) is willing to install and hand over their contact information to a third party with questionable security measures surrounding their data store in return for very minimal feature set compared to WhatsApp's competition. The risk in this case is not worth the reward to me or them.
    Again, while I have no problem believing this is true for your circle of friends, the global numbers show them to be a very small subset of the population. WhatsApp is still growing at a huge rate, while BBM hasn't really grown since the xBBM's launch, which I suspect will actually be a blip on the radar as users transitioned off of BBOS devices and onto iOS or (mostly) Android devices and xBBM and/or installed it to try it out before abandoning it for their previous messenger client of choice.

    Clearly a small fraction of consumers care enough about security to make their phone/OS choice based on that, but I maintain that, at best, that group is stagnant, and more likely it is shrinking compared to the overall market, which is growing.

    I would still maintain that going the Android OS clone direction would have even less revenue potential and high risk of attaching your core competency (OS development) to a third party which is incidentally somewhat of a competitor in the space.
    If you took the losses since launch of every Android manufacturer who has ever existed, totaled that up, and compared it to BB's losses on BB10 in just the last two quarters, the Android losses would be but a fraction of the BB10 losses. And that's not counting the billions that BB has spent do develop Tablet OS/BB10 from the foundation of QNX, or the money they spent on trying to grow their own ecosystem. Revenue "potential" isn't revenue, and BB hasn't been able to capitalize on whatever potential BB10 may have had to this point.

    Again, it's not that BB10 is bad - it isn't. If a BB10 phone could have been released in 2009-10, I think it would be a serious player today. But now, with a far more damaged brand image and massive ecosystems that they can't compete with, I see no possible way for BB to catch up. There's just too many areas that they are too far behind on, especially from a consumer's point of view, rather than a rabid enthusiast's point of view.
    06-11-14 07:58 PM
  19. zyphen's Avatar
    Then why are fewer and fewer people buying BB10? And why are fewer and fewer corporations buying BES, and going with arguably less-secure MDM products?
    Please share some sources on why fewer corporations are buying BES (with numbers), I am interested in reading that information.

    Again, while I have no problem believing this is true for your circle of friends, the global numbers show them to be a very small subset of the population. WhatsApp is still growing at a huge rate, while BBM hasn't really grown since the xBBM's launch, which I suspect will actually be a blip on the radar as users transitioned off of BBOS devices and onto iOS or (mostly) Android devices and xBBM and/or installed it to try it out before abandoning it for their previous messenger client of choice.

    Clearly a small fraction of consumers care enough about security to make their phone/OS choice based on that, but I maintain that, at best, that group is stagnant, and more likely it is shrinking compared to the overall market, which is growing.
    Once we reach the level of having handsets as a commodity, you will see heavy renewed interest in security conscious product offerings (I am suggesting that we while we don't see it today, we will start to see this trend shortly). Market share is a good measure of historical analysis but not so much a good read on the future. For right now a large portion of the market is buying on price alone for their first devices. From there, I would agree that IOS and Android have a strong stickiness factor generated mainly by contained and somewhat proprietary ecosystems. This is where BlackBerry has made a decision; just like you and I (and many others), they can see that today, no up-and-coming ecosystem short of revolutionary (read none) will be able to dethrone the current IOS and Android ecosystem offerings, be it Microsoft with cash to throw at the issue or Tizen or other LiMo variants. The alternative is to assimilate / include these ecosystems in their offerings which is exactly what BlackBerry is working on and showing a fair amount of progress at.


    If you took the losses since launch of every Android manufacturer who has ever existed, totaled that up, and compared it to BB's losses on BB10 in just the last two quarters, the Android losses would be but a fraction of the BB10 losses. And that's not counting the billions that BB has spent do develop Tablet OS/BB10 from the foundation of QNX, or the money they spent on trying to grow their own ecosystem. Revenue "potential" isn't revenue, and BB hasn't been able to capitalize on whatever potential BB10 may have had to this point.
    You missed my point of bringing up revenue potential. Think of it this way; there is a cost of opportunity, and if you have very few opportunities then even if you are very successful, your potential for revenue is limited by the limited opportunity. Now if you choose to go for the space with more opportunities, your revenue potential grows significantly. I don't disagree with you on the lack of capitalization BlackBerry made in that opportunity at that time, I might even suggest the word "squandered" but only because this discussion is in the armchair CEO section of the forums!

    Because we are in this section and there is a fairly fresh real CEO at the helm, most of my arguments center on looking (my view) ahead instead of behind. To bring up another cliche, "hindsight is always 20/20"

    Again, it's not that BB10 is bad - it isn't. If a BB10 phone could have been released in 2009-10, I think it would be a serious player today. But now, with a far more damaged brand image and massive ecosystems that they can't compete with, I see no possible way for BB to catch up. There's just too many areas that they are too far behind on, especially from a consumer's point of view, rather than a rabid enthusiast's point of view.
    Well I will still maintain my rabid enthusiasts opinion that it would have been a short sighted and ultimately unrewarding position to just adopt Android as an OS and be subject to it's less secure architecture regardless of layered efforts at applying security over the top of it. Apparently the powers to be at BlackBerry seem to agree for the moment.

    Posted via CB10
    06-11-14 09:05 PM
  20. vietnamesetan's Avatar
    Good idea but I love Blackberry 10, that's what makes Blackberry different from the rest.

    Posted via CB10
    06-11-14 09:07 PM
  21. buwee's Avatar
    The title sounds confusing, but here is my plan. I know the hardcore BB fans (moreso than myself) are going to hate me for suggesting this, but why not look at Blackberry's strengths - the physical device, the keyboard (for the keyboard addicts), and the security.

    Why not pull an Amazon and make an Android-derived device that runs on Android, but touts the patented security that Blackberry security users enjoy? This allows the keyboard addicts et al to enjoy the Blackberry device in the best state that it can be.

    Let's face it - your OS (3, 4, 5, 6, 7, OS10, PBOS) sucks. Had great potential, but then took a turn for terrible and your users started leaving in droves for Android or iPhone devices. The hard reality at this point in time is you can never become an equal third party in the same neighborhood as Android and iOS - look at the same issue Windows Phone is having, no matter how great it is. If the apps aren't there, the people aren't either.

    If you focused your energy instead of on 'reinventing the wheel' to contributing to the best device it can be, it would become a top-tier device that organizations want to use again. But it needs to be from an OS that already has the many apps available to it. Sure... we can download the apk from android, sign it as a .bar and sideload the app even though we aren't the owner of said intellectual property. Yeah... I'll tell my mom how to do that... she'll love calling me every time she has to update CandyCrush. Work with Google. Build a derivative that you can call your own - giving Google royalties where due of course - and spark the attention on Blackberry in a positive light once again. It's time to innovate... not start from scratch. Give users a great secure device with a kick@ss keyboard and the apps their friends are using at the bleeding edge of release... not 3 years after losing interest.

    Please help you help us, help everyone.
    NO THANKS! No Android powered BB PLEASE!

    You're right about one thing though - We hate you for even suggesting that LOL
    06-11-14 09:15 PM
  22. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Troy Tiscareno....why do you even waste your time being here on Crackberry when you do not own a BlackBerry device? You are just as good as the negative press contributors out there. You write your these stories like you know everything and strategically incline. Mate, if you are such an entrepreneur why is your venture not mentioned anywhere across the internet?

    You ask for others to provide a source to their contribution yet your assumptions are not supported with any credible source; other than your pure dislike to BlackBerry devices and lost claim that you were a BlackBerry user.
    I've never, anywhere, claimed to be a BB user. Neither do I dislike BB devices. I repair and sometimes provide support for ALL brands and models of devices, so I see everything, but I've never owned my own BB or used one as a daily driver. I've never implied otherwise, and from Day 1, my profile here at CB has listed the device I use (Nexus 4). I use my real name, not some fake pseudonym. I'm not hiding anything from anyone.

    BB succeeding would be better for the entire industry, and would increase competition and improve ALL products. For that reason, I'd like to see BB succeed. But I also have eyes, ears, and a brain, and I can see what's going on, and the realities of the market are pretty clear, and I must say that it doesn't look good for BB's handset business. If that wasn't the case, then I'd be saying so, and why I thought BB's handset future was bright.

    This is a discussion forum, where people exchange ideas and opinions. You are free to disagree with my opinions, but that won't stop me from having them, or posting them if I so choose. You are free to ignore me if you like; I promise I don't be mad. But no reason to attack me personally or question my "right" to post here just because you don't like my opinions.
    TGR1, ljfong, MarsupilamiX and 1 others like this.
    06-11-14 09:58 PM
  23. CannedBullets's Avatar
    Its not like Blackberry has to switch over exclusively to Android. Why not simultaneously make BB10 and Android devices? A lot of OEMs do that, HTC makes Android and Windows phones and Samsung does the same.
    06-13-14 01:22 AM
  24. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Its not like Blackberry has to switch over exclusively to Android. Why not simultaneously make BB10 and Android devices? A lot of OEMs do that, HTC makes Android and Windows phones and Samsung does the same.
    The OHA rules prohibit a manufacturer from making a certified Android device (with Play access, Google Services Framework, etc.) and making any phones that are non-certified but use Android code. That means if BB wants to make a certified Android device, they must either stop making BB10 phones, or remove the Android player from BB10.

    Nothing prevents BB from running a non-certified "forked" Android and also BB10, but doing that wouldn't get BB access to Google services or the Play Store. It might be a potential solution if they, say, hooked up with Amazon and used their store, though.
    zyphen likes this.
    06-13-14 09:17 AM
  25. lnichols's Avatar
    If Android and iOS for that matter were so easy to secure, then they would have secured it and they would be flooding the regulated space now. But it isn't and they aren't. Also once you lock down the device and don't have access to an app store then how great will the experience be. It would be costly to keep Android secured, and to test every OS build (monolithic kernel) on every device. With BB10 they don't have to test every OS build or device, they can release any new device with an ARMV7 processor and it will be FIPS approved. They only have to test if they update Neutrino or the crypto kernel.

    The other OS systems are not better, they have much more apps and apps is what people and business now want. Look at Umi's post where he says Android is horrible compared to BB10 but he won't come back just because of the apps.

    Oh and this is like thread number 1000 on this subject. If you love Android then buy one but Android will provide little value add as a full OS to BlackBerry in a saturated Android OEM market.

    Posted with a BlackBerry Z10
    zyphen likes this.
    06-14-14 06:04 AM
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