[Rickroller]

From @Berryreview : "BlackBerry 10 R Series Launching in May" and "The R Series BlackBerry 10 device will be a mid level curve available in May 2013"

Not sure where they got their info from.. But I suppose this fits nicely with the time line of the higher end phones launching earlier.

[DrBit2011]

From @Berryreview : "BlackBerry 10 R Series Launching in May" and "The R Series BlackBerry 10 device will be a mid level curve available in May 2013"

Not sure where they got their info from.. But I suppose this fits nicely with the time line of the higher end phones launching earlier.

Sound great. In develoment countries, curves sell like hot cakes

I really think, RIM whant to all or at least a good portion, of its current customer base switch to BB10.

We only need wait to see what really happend.


Regards

[SurrealCivic]

I can only assume this will use the same screen as the N-Series.. 720x720? or is it possible that they will introduce a low level 480x720 or 360x720 screen?

[anon(2757538)]

I can only assume this will use the same screen as the N-Series.. 720x720? or is it possible that they will introduce a low level 480x720 or 360x720 screen?

I thought they were standardizing all screen sizes...introducing more resolutions will deter Devs.

Anything but 720x720 or whatever the all-touch screen is will be a bad move.

[LuvULongTime]

I thought they were standardizing all screen sizes...introducing more resolutions will deter Devs.

Anything but 720x720 or whatever the all-touch screen is will be a bad move.

Agreed, resolution should be the same across the board. The differentiators will probably be things like RAM, CPU, internal storage, etc.

[kill_9]

Until the BlackBerry 10 smartphones materialise at the consumer level all we have is speculation. RIM screwed themselves by not delivering BlackBerry 10 for the BlackBerry PlayBook in advance of its debut on the next generation smartphones. The amount of hype and anticipation generated by an early autumn release of BlackBerry PlayBook running BlackBerry 10 is unfathomable. Alas, RIM crawls ever closer to the graveyard plot marked RIP.

[anon(4018671)]

Yeah I saw this earlier today. If R series refers to Rubicon being the new Curves its hardly exciting. But for those who do buy Curves a BB10 version is still a nice upgrade. I was hoping for something different

[anon(1049620)]

I still think it would be a mistake to introduce mid- and low-end devices. The experience should be consistent no matter what device you're holding. When I have a friend with a Curve and it doesn't play nice with my Bold (and other hardware and software) due to hardware limitations, it's extremely frustrating. I'll wait to see how they execute, but for now I'm not sold.

[cgk]

This sounds like way too many devices for a company of RIM's size in such a small period of time - I don't buy it. I also don't see them eroding ASP so quickly by providing so many price points.

[q649]

I still think it would be a mistake to introduce mid- and low-end devices. The experience should be consistent no matter what device you're holding. When I have a friend with a Curve and it doesn't play nice with my Bold (and other hardware and software) due to hardware limitations, it's extremely frustrating. I'll wait to see how they execute, but for now I'm not sold.

Low end devices, especially in developing countries is Rims bread and butter. It's also a stepping stone to upgrading people to high end devices. Not having low end devices, for RIM, would be suicide.

[Rickroller]

I still think it would be a mistake to introduce mid- and low-end devices. The experience should be consistent no matter what device you're holding. When I have a friend with a Curve and it doesn't play nice with my Bold (and other hardware and software) due to hardware limitations, it's extremely frustrating. I'll wait to see how they execute, but for now I'm not sold.

I could see these types of phones being popular in the "developing" countries much like they are already. Seeing how the name of the game is to get BB10 into as many hands as possible to increase sales and lure developers.. This is the only strategy that makes sense to me. I'd prefer if they just came out with high end devices only, but these price points would probably be out of range for many of their customers.

[cgk]

Low end devices, especially in developing countries is Rims bread and butter. It's also a stepping stone to upgrading people to high end devices. Not having low end devices, for RIM, would be suicide.

That model isn't scalable or sustainable for a number of reasons - RIM is selling those low-end bb7 devices at cost or near cost and is able to do that (in the short term) for two reasons - the curve and bold handsets are well established models (R&D costs, tooling costs all paid) that have had incremental upgrades and use largely behind the (excuse the pun) curve components - that means that they can just about do - even then they have had some write-offs (I think).

Now BB10 is different because even the lowest spec device should be of a higher spec than the current flagship bold - otherwise you are going to have a pretty crappy experience - and the BOM is going to be higher, it has to be - so how do you price it within the same bracket as a current curve without losing money on each handset when currently you are struggling to supply curves at cost? the answer is you can't.

For that reason alone, I would be amazed if we get a direct analogue to the curve in the first twelve months.

There is another problem - RIM has a cashpile of two billion, that sounds a lot but Apple and Samsung are spending more than that on single devices for massive economics of scale to increase or maintain margins. RIM has access to far less money for both that purpose, plus marketing plus carrier incentives plus everything else that comes with the launch of a new platform. Every device you add splits that money another way. The better gamble is to use what money you have to achive the best economies of scale for a limited number of devices which you attempt to sell at high margins. If RIM get straight into selling BB10 devices at cost or a lost, then the whole thing is a busted flush and they are no better off than they are now.


That is not to say we will never see low-end BB10 devices but I don't buy the time-scales we are discussing especially in light of the way that Heins has always positioned BB10 as the top and BB7 to cover the middle and the bottom. BB10 has to re-establish RIM as a company that can produce a premium device that can sell at high margins. If that is now shifting, then I can only conclude that bb7 sales are going off a cliff and that plan no longer makes sense.

[louzer]

I still think it would be a mistake to introduce mid- and low-end devices. The experience should be consistent no matter what device you're holding. When I have a friend with a Curve and it doesn't play nice with my Bold (and other hardware and software) due to hardware limitations, it's extremely frustrating. I'll wait to see how they execute, but for now I'm not sold.

On the surface, it might not make sense, but I heard somewhere recently that Samsung, who just overtook Apple in terms of single manufacturer smartphone sales did not do so based on their flagship S3. I forget the models, but it was the mid-level devices that accounted for the majority of Samsung phones out there.

The S3 is a great phone and is selling very well. But, more importantly, it's increased brand awareness of Samsung as a player in the smartphone market. So when people who don't want to (or can't afford to) pay or the high-end device are making their decisions, it's the Samsung brand that's driving them to the portfolio of mid-range and low-range Samsung smartphones.

These don't compare to the S3 in terms of performance and functionality, but people feel comfortable with the brand. RIM can do the same thing with a killer flagship phone accompanied by mid- and low-level devices.

[cgk]

I forget the models, but it was the mid-level devices that accounted for the majority of Samsung phones out there.

Samsung is effectively it's own supply chain in critical areas and has access to economies of scale that RIM does not, Apple performs the same trick via the use of a massive cashpile which they use for volume purchases or to make loans to fabricators.

Even then it's not clear what the BOM/margins on some of their middle/low-end devices are - however they are sure to be better than anything RIM can achieved given it's lack of internal capacity and restricted finance.

[playbookster]

i really hope they arent calling these phones torches bolds and curves. They need a fresh start with fresh new names.

[Mister-E]

i really hope they arent calling these phones torches bolds and curves. They need a fresh start with fresh new names.

I would keep Bold as it has a great reputation. I am indifferent about the curve, but I don't like Torch.

[louzer]

Samsung is effectively it's own supply chain in critical areas and has access to economies of scale that RIM does not, Apple performs the same trick via the use of a massive cashpile which they use for volume purchases or to make loans to fabricators.

Even then it's not clear what the BOM/margins on some of their middle/low-end devices are - however they are sure to be better than anything RIM can achieved given it's lack of internal capacity and restricted finance.

Agreed. It's very hard to breakdown the profits and their sources for a company like Samsung who makes not only a variety of smartphones, but also, TVs, washer and dryers, digial cameras, etc.

But with the majority of their smartphone sales being mid-range phones, they have to be selling over their own BOM. Granted it's probably lower for them since they have a powerful supply chain (supported by supplying Apple as well), but their profit is from devices and not services. They are launching a number of cloud services, including a music service, that they hope will generate additional revenue for them. RIM already has a service model, that, if implemented correctly, and if looked favorably on by the carriers (critical to the success of BB10), could add value on top of the hardware sales.

[berklon]

i really hope they arent calling these phones torches bolds and curves. They need a fresh start with fresh new names.

Agreed.

Even though Bold is RIMs signature line, they shouldn't be using that or any existing name with new BB10 devices. They need to differentiate between BB10 devices and older devices as much as possible.

This R series device should only be available in emerging markets, it should not be made available in North America. If they plan on releasing it in North America, they should wait at least 6 months after the initial BB10 launch. RIM must not confuse the market with a lot of devices - especially lower ends ones. They need to come out swinging with their best and and only their best for North America.

[cgk]

RIM already has a service model, that, if implemented correctly, and if looked favorably on by the carriers (critical to the success of BB10), could add value on top of the hardware sales.

Agreed - the issue for rim is that the services revenue is under attack from carriers who want a bigger spilt and the face that the volume of customers over the last couple of years have been on low price plans - that's why the BB10 devices have to sell for decent margins and why I don't buy the time-scale outlined here - I'll repeat myself again, it's not that I don't see low-end bb10 but not that soon.

[Bla1ze]

There has always been a Curve BB10 device planned.

Did anyone really think RIM would drop their best selling device line with BB10?

[GTiLeo]

There has always been a Curve BB10 device planned.

Did anyone really think RIM would drop their best selling device line with BB10?

i wonder what hardware RIM will put in the BB10 Curve, i mean since they claim that the existing devices can't be upgraded they would have to use some kind of dual core with atleast 1GB RAM, i wonder if they will use the S4 play id the rumor is S4 pro for their high end stuff

[Nogrentain]

That model isn't scalable or sustainable for a number of reasons - RIM is selling those low-end bb7 devices at cost or near cost and is able to do that (in the short term) for two reasons - the curve and bold handsets are well established models (R&D costs, tooling costs all paid) that have had incremental upgrades and use largely behind the (excuse the pun) curve components - that means that they can just about do - even then they have had some write-offs (I think).

Now BB10 is different because even the lowest spec device should be of a higher spec than the current flagship bold - otherwise you are going to have a pretty crappy experience - and the BOM is going to be higher, it has to be - so how do you price it within the same bracket as a current curve without losing money on each handset when currently you are struggling to supply curves at cost? the answer is you can't.

For that reason alone, I would be amazed if we get a direct analogue to the curve in the first twelve months.

There is another problem - RIM has a cashpile of two billion, that sounds a lot but Apple and Samsung are spending more than that on single devices for massive economics of scale to increase or maintain margins. RIM has access to far less money for both that purpose, plus marketing plus carrier incentives plus everything else that comes with the launch of a new platform. Every device you add splits that money another way. The better gamble is to use what money you have to achive the best economies of scale for a limited number of devices which you attempt to sell at high margins. If RIM get straight into selling BB10 devices at cost or a lost, then the whole thing is a busted flush and they are no better off than they are now.


That is not to say we will never see low-end BB10 devices but I don't buy the time-scales we are discussing especially in light of the way that Heins has always positioned BB10 as the top and BB7 to cover the middle and the bottom. BB10 has to re-establish RIM as a company that can produce a premium device that can sell at high margins. If that is now shifting, then I can only conclude that bb7 sales are going off a cliff and that plan no longer makes sense.

I would like to know where you got the BOM for the low end curves that shows it's approximately 150 dollars. The only BOM that I've ever been able to find for RIM devices is from isuppli and it's for the original storm, which cost ~203 dollars to manufacture at a time when its specs were considered high end in the smartphone market, and the latest iphone then cost Apple 173 dollars. You are trying to tell me that a 320x240 2.44" screen, 800mhz single core cpu, 512 mb of ram and a rubber/plastic body today costs RIM 50 dollars less to make than the storm did in 2008?

At the end of the day, their curve line is what's making rim so popular in the developing smartphone markets. They don't make as high a % in profit, but they still make a profit. Not to mention that 3-5(I can never remember which) dollars a month they get in subscription fees, which as of last quarter, amounts to one third of their revenues. I see no issues with a replacement to the curve 9360 (I see two tiers of curves now) that will allow people that cannot afford 600 a phone an in to the BB10 lineup. It is in no way a dilution of the BB brand when the curve is such a huge part of this brand name. Given that RIM has standardised resolutions to a grand total of two, and has also declared that BBOS 7.x devices will continue to remain an important segment of RIM's lineup, I would conclude that the low end curves for the next year, or two, will continue to be the 9310/9320/9230, whereas if the R is indeed a curve, then it will replace their 9360, which I consider to be a mini-bold, until the 9790 came along, and possibly be their one mid tier phone. I wish that RIM had combined the 9360 and 9790 by adding a touch screen, an AF camera, and larger battery to the 9360, and calling it a day, but I digress. I see this being the case until the specs to run BB10 well at a low enough price point (with a 720x720 screen) to replace the 9230/9310/9320 while maintaining the same price points comes along. And since the 8520 got RIM this far in developing smartphone markets, I can only imagine how far the low end 7.x curves will get RIM given their vastly increased performance via a vis the 8520/9300.

Add to that that in Nigeria, RIM is supposedly selling just as many 9900's as 8520's, I bet that they'll just do fine with the L/N series + low end curve combo. Catch the small upper classes, and the vast lower classes. Now to see the reviews in good time for the L and N series.

[Nogrentain]

i wonder what hardware RIM will put in the BB10 Curve, i mean since they claim that the existing devices can't be upgraded they would have to use some kind of dual core with atleast 1GB RAM, i wonder if they will use the S4 play id the rumor is S4 pro for their high end stuff

I can see that. I think that it will be their new 9360. It really is a nice little phone. I am sure many that want better than the 9320, but don't want to blow 600, would jump for a BB10 curve.

[LuvULongTime]

That model isn't scalable or sustainable for a number of reasons - RIM is selling those low-end bb7 devices at cost or near cost and is able to do that (in the short term) for two reasons - the curve and bold handsets are well established models (R&D costs, tooling costs all paid) that have had incremental upgrades and use largely behind the (excuse the pun) curve components - that means that they can just about do - even then they have had some write-offs (I think).

Now BB10 is different because even the lowest spec device should be of a higher spec than the current flagship bold - otherwise you are going to have a pretty crappy experience - and the BOM is going to be higher, it has to be - so how do you price it within the same bracket as a current curve without losing money on each handset when currently you are struggling to supply curves at cost? the answer is you can't.

For that reason alone, I would be amazed if we get a direct analogue to the curve in the first twelve months.

There is another problem - RIM has a cashpile of two billion, that sounds a lot but Apple and Samsung are spending more than that on single devices for massive economics of scale to increase or maintain margins. RIM has access to far less money for both that purpose, plus marketing plus carrier incentives plus everything else that comes with the launch of a new platform. Every device you add splits that money another way. The better gamble is to use what money you have to achive the best economies of scale for a limited number of devices which you attempt to sell at high margins. If RIM get straight into selling BB10 devices at cost or a lost, then the whole thing is a busted flush and they are no better off than they are now.


That is not to say we will never see low-end BB10 devices but I don't buy the time-scales we are discussing especially in light of the way that Heins has always positioned BB10 as the top and BB7 to cover the middle and the bottom. BB10 has to re-establish RIM as a company that can produce a premium device that can sell at high margins. If that is now shifting, then I can only conclude that bb7 sales are going off a cliff and that plan no longer makes sense.

All good points. I'd personally like to see RIM adopt the Apple philosophy of keeping the previous generation around around once the new generation has been released and then selling it as the mid/low end phone.

Apple now has:

iPhone 5: High end
iPhone 4s: Mid range
iPhone 4: Low end
iPhone 3: Entry level <-(is this model still being sold?)

For now RIM will need to keep the Bold 9900 and Curve around as the mid and entry level phones. Once the second generation BB10 phones come out, the current crop can be relegated to mid and entry level status and the OS7 devices can then be retired.

[LuvULongTime]

i really hope they arent calling these phones torches bolds and curves. They need a fresh start with fresh new names.

I would personally keep the existing names as their is brand awareness already established. Bold, Torch, and Curve are well known to all BB users. Apple doesn't rename the iPhone to something else every other generation. It is, and most likely will always be, the "iPhone".