[anon(757282)]

Apparently RIM knows only two delivery models:
1) Release late. Miss the target market and sales cycles
2) Release incomplete. Missing or inoperative bits or software.

Hey, here is a wild idea... Release On Time and Complete!!

I know this is radical thinking, but go ahead, give it a shot...

If that means bringing in other people, working weekends, postponing vacations, then JUST DO IT. Otherwise everyone at RIM will be on very long unpaid vacations._

[WinningWithLogic]

When all the good people have left, delivering becomes increasingly hard.

Something that has gone wholly uncommented on here at CB is the mass abandonment of talent from RIM over the last 6 months (and I don't mean people being laid off. I mean brilliant engineers resigning). This is the consequence.

[app_Developer]

I still don't think it's fair to say this is lack of effort. By all accounts, the engineers have been working crazy hours to get this done.

They got a very late start on making an OS. I think they made some huge architectural mistakes. And I think there is clearly a breakdown in internal communication with respect to status, risks, and schedules.

And in hindsight, a lot of time was wasted chasing the shiny new iPad when that time could have been focused on making the next generation of great phones (you know, the business RIM is/was in)

[llllBULLSEYE]

I would have prefer they deliver on time with bugs.
Lets say if removing the Scalado camera app and
virtual video camera feature would allow them to release the
product on time the do it and at least not loose every single customer
to the upcoming Jellybeans, iPhone5, and WP8.

[dbmalloy]

RIM needs to learn a simple a simply concept..... Until your ready... Keep your mouth shut..... Works great for Apple and Samsung..... Do not see them giving any device release info.... there is a lot of speculation ... read "hype"...... something RIM has never seemed to learned..... oh well.... will keep using my 9800 and Playbook as right now i see nothing out there that suites my needs better.....

[anon(757282)]

I still don't think it's fair to say this is lack of effort. By all accounts, the engineers have been working crazy hours to get this done.

They got a very late start on making an OS. I think they made some huge architectural mistakes. And I think there is clearly a breakdown in internal communication with respect to status, risks, and schedules.

And in hindsight, a lot of time was wasted chasing the shiny new iPad when that time could have been focused on making the next generation of great phones (you know, the business RIM is/was in)

Nope, I don't buy that. RIM has known the stakes for a long time. Thorsten may have come in recently, but BBX/10 has been in the works for awhile. And he has been there for years, so knows their delivery capability.

This is a huge fail and tomorrow will be RIM's Black Friday. My stock will be pounded again.

[anon(757282)]

I would have prefer they deliver on time with bugs.

My point is, why the are these the only two options that RIM executes?!

This poor performance is acceptable to the CEO. He said it.

That MUST change. So far it has not.

[amazinglygraceless]

My point is, why the are these the only two options that RIM executes?!

This poor performance is acceptable to the CEO. He said it.

That MUST change. So far it has not.

Not true at all:
RIMM Falls 16%; BB10 Delayed; FYQ1 Rev $2.8B, $0.37/Sh Loss - Tech Trader Daily - Barrons.com

CEO Thorsten Heins remarked, “I am not satisfied with these results and continue to work aggressively with all areas of the organization and the Board to implement meaningful changes to address the challenges, including a thoughtful realignment of resources and honing focus within the Company on areas that have the greatest opportunities.”

[anon(757282)]

Not true at all:
RIMM Falls 16%; BB10 Delayed; FYQ1 Rev $2.8B, $0.37/Sh Loss - Tech Trader Daily - Barrons.com

He said he would not release until it is perfect. So it is delayed to 2012. So he has accepted late in exchange for better quality. He may not like it, may hate it. But he has accepted this performance from the company he runs.

[amazinglygraceless]

He said he would not release until it is perfect. So it is delayed to 2012. So he has accepted late in exchange for better quality. He may not like it, may hate it. But he has accepted this performance from the company he runs.

I am not arguing what Mr Heins does or does not accept as I don't know his mind.
But I do not recall a time where he SAID it was acceptable. He reiterated his dissatisfaction
with RIMs situation today.

[kennyliu]

I still don't think it's fair to say this is lack of effort. By all accounts, the engineers have been working crazy hours to get this done.

They got a very late start on making an OS. I think they made some huge architectural mistakes. And I think there is clearly a breakdown in internal communication with respect to status, risks, and schedules.

And in hindsight, a lot of time was wasted chasing the shiny new iPad when that time could have been focused on making the next generation of great phones (you know, the business RIM is/was in)

I've said this before I am not a developer, but how long does it take to develop an OS on top of an existing OS (PBOS)? They have known that their future entirely depends on BB10. They've had enough cash. So why is it that they didn't spend more resources on BB10 development, attracted more people, etc.? It's not like they started working on BB10 last month and it's not like they don't know how important it is for them to finish, and finish on time.

[otacon]

It rumors turn out to be true, then RIM would lose out a good chunk of consumers to iPhone5. The timing of a fall release was still good, since the launch of BB10 and iPhone5 will be close, but to delay BB10 until next year will mean that consumers will be given a single choice when iPhone5 is launched. For those with expiring contracts, this would be the final push into switching over to iPhone5.

However, I do respect RIM for taking the stand NOT to release a buggy OS, but to perfect it and deliver it slightly later. 1st Quarter is 3 months, so hopefully they release it early on in the 1st Quarter than the final day of the 1st Quarter.

RIM, come on, I'm waiting for BB10!!!

[tmelon]

Or both... The PlayBook was late and incomplete when it came out.

[anon(757282)]

I am not arguing what Mr Heins does or does not accept as I don't know his mind.
But I do not recall a time where he SAID it was acceptable. He reiterated his dissatisfaction
with RIMs situation today.

I see what you are saying and agree that he has never said the words, at least in public. But he stepped into the role of CEO from an internal position, so was aware of the state of BB10 development. He has allowed that schedule to slip, six months more after a prior nine month slip when BB10 was to be released at the start of 2012. He is the CEO and this new delay is completely on his watch. He has allowed this to happen, accepted the delay to get the perfect device instead of doing what it takes to deliver on time with that perfect device.

As a project manager, I know and hate the Sophie's choice of delivering on time but with product issues, or waiting another week, month, whatever to deliver a fully compliant product. It comes down to controlling the process, knowing where you are and where you should be, and taking strong action if you blow off course.

I am just incredibly frustrated that even with the astronomical stakes involved and cutthroat competition from apple and android, Thor and RIM cannot deliver as promised. If I was not such a fan, would I be interested in RIM products?

[addicted44]

I've said this before I am not a developer, but how long does it take to develop an OS on top of an existing OS (PBOS)?

PB OS was the wrong platform to start with. Look at how Android and WP8 progressed, starting with the phones first, and then moving onto tablets. That can be done easily because a tablet, by being bigger, affords you more space for a bigger battery, more cooling area, bigger/better processing components. IOW, if your OS works well on a phone, you will be able to make it work easily on the tablet (stick the same phone internals inside, with a bigger battery, and better GPU to drive the bigger display).

Going the other way around is really hard. You have to find ways to optimize down to the limited phone components, and do it all with less computing power (because you have a smaller battery) to maintain a decent battery life. I wouldnt be surprised if RIM had to essentially rewrite everything to make it work on the phone. Optimization is really hard to do.

[kennyliu]

PB OS was the wrong platform to start with. Look at how Android and WP8 progressed, starting with the phones first, and then moving onto tablets. That can be done easily because a tablet, by being bigger, affords you more space for a bigger battery, more cooling area, bigger/better processing components. IOW, if your OS works well on a phone, you will be able to make it work easily on the tablet (stick the same phone internals inside, with a bigger battery, and better GPU to drive the bigger display).

Going the other way around is really hard. You have to find ways to optimize down to the limited phone components, and do it all with less computing power (because you have a smaller battery) to maintain a decent battery life. I wouldnt be surprised if RIM had to essentially rewrite everything to make it work on the phone. Optimization is really hard to do.

Isn't Android a Linux which also had to be rewritten?

Isn't iOS derived from OSX?

Doesn't WP8 have the same NT core?

So why is it harder in RIM's case?

[addicted44]

Isn't Android a Linux which also had to be rewritten?

Isn't iOS derived from OSX?

Doesn't WP8 have the same NT core?

So why is it harder in RIM's case?

Android uses the Linux Kernel.
WP8 uses the NT core.
And BB10 uses the QNX core.

The core/kernel isnt the hard part. The OS is a LOT more than just the Kernel. The core is only the lowest layer. There are many layers above in an OS, and it is those layers which are eventually more important, and harder to get right. Those are where they are most likely facing issues. Any borrowing RIM did from development on PB OS would have been in those layers, rather than the Kernel, which is simply QNX, which they purchased.

Additionally, app_developer keeps mentioning that using an RT Kernel (like QNX) might not have been a good idea. I dont know enough about that to agree or disagree, but that may be another reason why it has been so much harder than RIM.

Finally, RIM just didnt give themselves enough time. Apple had been working many years on iOS before the iPhone, and they arguably had the most experience in building OS'es (having engineers who lived through both NextStep, and a myriad of OSes in the pre-Jobs Apple). MS made OSes for a living, and they also took many years to get the fundamentals right (their work in the direction of WP8 really started with the Zune player). And Android had been around since well before 2005, when Google purchased them (they were a BB copy then. It took Google a couple of years to simply graft on touch features on what was a complete mobile stack, once the iPhone was released).

[dandbj13]

I believe the word many are groping for is incompetence. There was incompetence. at the top when decisions were made to pursue iPad killing. It didn't take hindsight to see the stupidity of that. Many said as much a long time ago. If they can't get it right, that is incompetence in coding. If they can't do it on time, that is incompetence in operations.

RIM has a culture of incompetence of which the current CEO was a part. It is easy to make good speeches and fire a lot of people. It is hard, if not impossible for a company to change such an ingrained culture of incompetence, especially one that has been enabled by the fan-base for so long.

[anon(757282)]

All this negativity is getting me down. I know RIM will come through, but why take such a difficult road and disappoint people.

Gotta take a break now. Go visit some other sites...relaxing sites...sites where the video looks really good on the PlayBook. Ahhh....
Later gang!

[polytope]

I've said this before I am not a developer, but how long does it take to develop an OS on top of an existing OS (PBOS)? They have known that their future entirely depends on BB10. They've had enough cash. So why is it that they didn't spend more resources on BB10 development, attracted more people, etc.? It's not like they started working on BB10 last month and it's not like they don't know how important it is for them to finish, and finish on time.

QNX is not the problem. GUI is. The PB uses AIR for that. RIM needs to rewrite literally everything using Cascades. For example, WebWorks is being ported to use native stuff instead of flash. That kind of makeover doesn't happen overnight. It is like porting DirectX to OpenGL.

But then, it might be true that RIM lacks talent at all levels.

[Rello]

Android uses the Linux Kernel.
WP8 uses the NT core.
And BB10 uses the QNX core.

The core/kernel isnt the hard part. The OS is a LOT more than just the Kernel. The core is only the lowest layer. There are many layers above in an OS, and it is those layers which are eventually more important, and harder to get right. Those are where they are most likely facing issues. Any borrowing RIM did from development on PB OS would have been in those layers, rather than the Kernel, which is simply QNX, which they purchased.

Additionally, app_developer keeps mentioning that using an RT Kernel (like QNX) might not have been a good idea. I dont know enough about that to agree or disagree, but that may be another reason why it has been so much harder than RIM.

Finally, RIM just didnt give themselves enough time. Apple had been working many years on iOS before the iPhone, and they arguably had the most experience in building OS'es (having engineers who lived through both NextStep, and a myriad of OSes in the pre-Jobs Apple). MS made OSes for a living, and they also took many years to get the fundamentals right (their work in the direction of WP8 really started with the Zune player). And Android had been around since well before 2005, when Google purchased them (they were a BB copy then. It took Google a couple of years to simply graft on touch features on what was a complete mobile stack, once the iPhone was released).

Its still just ridiculous people have to wait even further. They delay and say its because they are waiting on a chip...okay we couldve given u then benefit of the doubt back then even when places like BGR had sources saying that they simply didnt have a working product...but now we are still restricted to seeing only demos of the "peek and glance" and the camera and keyboard when come to find out its not even live demos...cascades has come out finally a full 2 years after RIM purchased TAT (yet still not in a form that developers can currently implement), developers still dont have all the api's they need....all this and RIM somehow thought they were going to get this out in "later 2012"?!?! Like Kennyliu says, how long does it take to code this stuff??? I remember all them posts awhile ago about how QNX supports rapid development or something like that...

Keep in mind now that im sure RIM has more than just in house people working on this. awhile ago it was said that they were working with YOU-I and teknision to help in making the OS

http://crackberry.com/rim-working-yo...-ui-next-level

At this point, just stop stringing people along. OS7 doesnt compete with market leaders and unless RIM truly has some earth shattering feature, or a handful of killer apps ready for when BB10 actually does release, then i almost have to wonder why they are even going to bring it to market. forget all that perfect nonsense, if the handsets aren't going to release until Q1 2013 it could be absolutely perfect software but if its still just playing catchup or just on par with IOS and Android, then its not going to convert many people...and after this who is going to have the confidence that they think RIM will still produce a winning product when even the guy called appdeveloper said he was led to believe he'd have a near complete SDK come early june or july (forget his exact wording)

I just think RIM knew long before this announcement that BB10 wouldnt be ready for prime time if they were going for perfection. I just know that with all these acquisitions they've made, i better have a darn good ecosystem waiting for me with BB10

[siddo_d]

+1
RIM are just so annoying and their incompetence makes me sick. Their cutting jobs and aspect a software ready :/ hire more people stfu and get the job done, in time.

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