[Jberry32]

Well, I agree that marketing is VERY important and that we need a great Blackberry marketing campaign that will wow us, BUT...

People who are switching from a Blackberry to other platforms are not doing it because of bad marketing, and most of us who are sticking around are staying regardless of marketing too.
People who are switching are doing it because they have felt dissapointed , other platforms are giving them faster phones with better features, more tools, and more options to choose from.

The most important thing for RIM is to put out a series of quality devices that will deliver, and provide enough options and features to make current users stay as well as attract users from other platforms.

We also need that when we upgrade, we are actually upgrading and not just gaining a couple of nice features just to lose others that were as good.

I know comments like these are not very well received here but I am actually a big Blackberry fan myself and I understand that even though there are things that I don't personally need on a phone, I can't expect the majority of people to feel the same way.

I've seen that when someone comes to the forums and complains about the camera quality on their 9900, for instance, the usual response is: "Phones are not for taking pictures, go get a camera"

If someone complains about the quality of apps or games, the response is "Blackberries are not toys, go get an Android"

If someone complains about the lack of a front Facing camera the responses are something like: "Go get an Iphone", "I don't see the need a front facing camera" and, once again, "Blackberry is not a toy".

We are literally sending people to go get other devices and, perhaps, acknowledging that Blackberry doesn't have enough to offer.

Why would someone choose another Blackberry when they can find what they have now plus more somewhere else?

If we tell RIM That their devices are perfect the way they are, there's no way they will stay competitive and get back in the game like they used to be.

So, yeah a great a campaign is important, but what we mostly need is it to be accompanied by a great device that will sell itself. Will BB10 be it?

[Stewartj1]

Marketing and a great product are both indispensable - one is useless without the other.

[Splange]

+ infinity. I've been thinking the same thing but could never have phrased it so perfectly.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9700 using Tapatalk

[glidewells]

Apple has the luxury of being able to put out a unfinished product if they want. At this time they are the media and public darlings, so they get a pass on it. RIM on the other had does not have that luxury. This launch is going to have to be perfect due to the past botched product launches. RIM will not get a pass and they will be scorned heavily and dismissed as the same ol thing if there new product isn't damned near perfect at launch.

[addicted44]

I disagree. History shows great marketing can sell a mediocre product. You need only look at Apple to see that.

Nonsense. The consumer is not going to buy a bad product. And the iPhone is not a mediocre product (Don't want to take my word for it, then just listen to Hampus Jakobsson, the founder of TAT, who says the iPhone turned the industry on its head Hampus Jakobsson: "The Future of Screens" - YouTube), so that is not evidence of your contention.

RIM will need a strong product, which BB10 is clearly looking like it will be. At this point, they need to get be working on their marketing to, so that they have a strong pitch for the customer when BB10 devices are released.

[bobauckland]

Well, I agree that marketing is VERY important and that we need a great Blackberry marketing campaign that will wow us, BUT...

People who are switching from a Blackberry to other platforms are not doing it because of bad marketing, and most of us who are sticking around are staying regardless of marketing too.
People who are switching are doing it because they have felt dissapointed , other platforms are giving them faster phones with better features, more tools, and more options to choose from.

The most important thing for RIM is to put out a series of quality devices that will deliver, and provide enough options and features to make current users stay as well as attract users from other platforms.

We also need that when we upgrade, we are actually upgrading and not just gaining a couple of nice features just to lose others that were as good.

I know comments like these are not very well received here but I am actually a big Blackberry fan myself and I understand that even though there are things that I don't personally need on a phone, I can't expect the majority of people to feel the same way.

I've seen that when someone comes to the forums and complains about the camera quality on their 9900, for instance, the usual response is: "Phones are not for taking pictures, go get a camera"

If someone complains about the quality of apps or games, the response is "Blackberries are not toys, go get an Android"

If someone complains about the lack of a front Facing camera the responses are something like: "Go get an Iphone", "I don't see the need a front facing camera" and, once again, "Blackberry is not a toy".

We are literally sending people to go get other devices and, perhaps, acknowledging that Blackberry doesn't have enough to offer.

Why would someone choose another Blackberry when they can find what they have now plus more somewhere else?

If we tell RIM That their devices are perfect the way they are, there's no way they will stay competitive and get back in the game like they used to be.

So, yeah a great a campaign is important, but what we mostly need is it to be accompanied by a great device that will sell itself. Will BB10 be it?

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, particularly the parts about constructive feedback to improve products because pretending they are perfect is not the way to improve.
I disagree that marketing isn't a key part here, because I for one didn't know that BlackBerries could do what they do when I got one, and certain things, like email handling and notifications, are far better than the competitors, but this isn't marketed hard enough.
So yes, the product needs to improve, but the marketing isn't highlighting any of the positive facets of the ecosystem and product, and there are many. Some things, that are important to some people, are done better on a BlackBerry, even today, than any other product on the market. This needs to be highlighted.

I disagree. History shows great marketing can sell a mediocre product. You need only look at Apple to see that.

I am perhaps to only person seeing RIM should start selling the BB10 today and finish it later. Apple has done that with all it's new products. Yes the tech bloggers are going to scream it is unfinished. However, if BB10 could cure AIDS, BGR would say it sucks because it doesn't cure cancer. Market it hard and sell it now. No product is ever finished when it hits the market. Every potential customer who signs a 2 or 3 year contract today for an A phone will likely never own a BB.

Doesn't sound like you've had a lot of experience with Apple products.
Its easy to say their success is down to marketing only but that is not true.
In a lot of ways their products are fantastic, certainly their laptops are far and away the best laptops Ive ever used.
I didn't like the iPhone itself when I first used it. After using an Android for a bit it made me appreciate the iPhone a lot more. Its certainly far from mediocre.
One of Apple's biggest advantages is a lot of their products just work out of the box. BB10 needs to meet that standard. Shipping it unfinished would kill it, but they need to be finishing it fast.
People aren't jumping only because of a bad product or only because of bad marketing.
Its a combination of a product thats lacking in many ways, awful marketing, and a strategy going forward that looks disjointed and looks likely to lead to less satisfaction for people that buy into the ecosystem than competing ecosystems. Thats the problem.
When competing platforms are pushing mature ecosystems with developed video chat and robust app stores, RIM at the moment is trying to drum up hype with a keyboard, while completely ignoring the people crying out for video chat, clear answers, or a decent app strategy. Ignoring people pisses them off.

[addicted44]

I disagree that marketing isn't a key part here, because I for one didn't know that BlackBerries could do what they do when I got one, and certain things, like email handling and notifications, are far better than the competitors, but this isn't marketed hard enough.

Agreed. RIM needs to market the unique strengths of BB7 devices better, and DJs tweeting isn't one of them.

They also need to provide some clarity on what the future of BB7 devices are, so customers are confident they are not buying into a dead-end platform (as far as I know, RIM will continue selling/developing BB7 devices, at least for the next couple of years).

[gtpointer]

In fairness to Apple, the iphone really kicked off with the iphone4 and ios 4, which is a more complete product than equivalent BBOS6 devices and even BBOS7 devices. Yes iphones miss little features that we all care about, hence we're still with BB, but iphones work easily and smoothly which is definitely more important than minor features in terms of completeness. So it's not apple being good at marketing an incomplete product, it's apple selling a better product. I know many will disagree with that last sentence, and for some including myself, BB is the better product, but objectively and for the market, the iphone is better.

Edit: so in summary, I agree with the OP, RIM needs to deliver the great device before it can open it's mouth to rejoin the marketing conversation.

[sleepngbear]

Without question, RIM needs to execute both product and marketing flawlessly. However, in the past, I believe RIM has had decent enough products which could have done better were it not for poor, ineffective and un-targeted marketing.

PlayBook is a classic example. Missing features and functionality notwithstanding, RIM could not agree on who the PlayBook was targeting or how to attract them; consequently we got this mishmash of advertising messages that didn't attract anybody. The only people who ended up waiting for it were mostly those who had been following its progress and knew what it was before the first ad ever hit the air. Another big mistake was unrealistic expectation that the PlayBook was going to rival the iPad. Again, knowing your target audience is also part of marketing, not just in advertising, but throughout the whole product development cycle. That effort was like an unmanned fire hose -- lots of energy, but shooting all over the place and not hitting much.

I strongly believe that new management knows better than that. Heins himself has said that they know they cannot be all things to all people, which strongly suggests to me that 1, they are not going to try to go up against iPhone and Android head-on; and 2, they are going to better define which consumers to target, and then effectively market to those consumers.

[lnichols]

I disagree. History shows great marketing can sell a mediocre product. You need only look at Apple to see that.

I am perhaps to only person seeing RIM should start selling the BB10 today and finish it later. Apple has done that with all it's new products. Yes the tech bloggers are going to scream it is unfinished. However, if BB10 could cure AIDS, BGR would say it sucks because it doesn't cure cancer. Market it hard and sell it now. No product is ever finished when it hits the market. Every potential customer who signs a 2 or 3 year contract today for an A phone will likely never own a BB.

You can't sell hardware that doesn't exist in quantity. The chips it will use are not in production yet, just sampling. I want it here now and so does everyone else, but iPhone, probably GS3 US version, and BB10 are all waiting on chips that aren't available yet. Now they could have released a Dev Alpha HSPA+ device on AT&T and T-mo already, and should have, but that time has passed and we just have to hope that BB10 can attract people coming out of Android devices (poor ecosystem and free apps won't cause them as much to lose as iPhone users would). Android doesn't have a firm grasp on its typical buyer like iOS does.

[addicted44]

Apple products are mediocre and their marketing is excellent. Deal with it.

Alright, let's assume that is the case. What about Apple's marketing is so impossible for RIM to replicate? Additionally, unlike most other things related to Apple products, the advertising (which is probably the most critical part of marketing) is created by a 3rd party. So why doesn't RIM (or a competitor) use their services, when it was the fundamental driver behind the most valuable technology company?

[Stewartj1]

I disagree. History shows great marketing can sell a mediocre product. You need only look at Apple to see that.

In most situations I'd agree, but with the hatred of all things RIM that is so prevalent today I think they need both

[Stewartj1]

+ infinity. I've been thinking the same thing but could never have phrased it so perfectly.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9700 using Tapatalk

Unfortunately, Apple does this all the time and no one cares (antenna-gate, 4G issue outside NA, etc) but RIM gets slammed hard even just for a holster that was popping keys off the 9900 keyboard but only if you put the phone in it backwards. I remember reading several articles claiming the 9900 had a poorly engineered keyboard and I still hear about it when I tell people I have a 9900.

Point being - RIM does not have the luxury of releasing anything which is less than excellent.

[Splange]

Without question, RIM needs to execute both product and marketing flawlessly. However, in the past, I believe RIM has had decent enough products which could have done better were it not for poor, ineffective and un-targeted marketing.

PlayBook is a classic example. Missing features and functionality notwithstanding, RIM could not agree on who the PlayBook was targeting or how to attract them

This is true, but I think the "missing features and functionality" part is what the OP was talking about. RIM needs to focus on releasing finished, quality products if they want to keep and attract users. If BB10 comes out incomplete like the playbook did, they're in a lot of trouble.

Also the playbook was way more competitive (spec-wise, feature wise etc) among tablets than any of the Blackberry phones have been among phones in the past few years.

[Splange]

Unfortunately, Apple does this all the time and no one cares (antenna-gate, 4G issue outside NA, etc) but RIM gets slammed hard even just for a holster that was popping keys off the 9900 keyboard but only if you put the phone in it backwards. I remember reading several articles claiming the 9900 had a poorly engineered keyboard and I still hear about it when I tell people I have a 9900.

I'm not talking so much about mistakes and bugs so much as actual features. The Bold 9900 was criticized less for having minor keyboard issues than it was for lacking competitive features (lack of autofocus, no front facing camera, no dual core processor) that were becoming the norm on other flagship devices.

Basically missing features are way more likely to turn off buyers than minor hiccups.

[avt123]

Apple products are mediocre and their marketing is excellent. Deal with it.

According to you. To the overwhelming majority of Apple users, their products are excellent.

Deal with it.

Maybe you should check out Apples satisfaction ratings.

[Thunderbuck]

Marketing is really the process of getting the message out.

The best message that RIM can have about BB10 is that it is a new, fresh, more intuitive way to interact with the device (and the fast access to messaging seems to actually provide that).

If BB10 actually does provide what is promised, it's crucial for RIM to find a way to get that message out to consumers. The best design in the world won't go anywhere if nobody knows about it.

[siddo_d]

Obviously its not just marketing but thats the only way people who isn't internet orientated to know capabilities of blackberry technology so marketing is what helps ios and android move forward and rim just didn't try hard enough to get normal people to know what our platform is worth

Sent from my BlackBerry 9800 using CrackBerry forums application

[mthomps07]

I see two problems with a lot of responses in this thread.

1. Many people are arguing that the concepts are related, but in one direction; arguing that marketing can only go so far without a quality product, and thus the quality product should command the majority of the attention. I would argue that the relationship is more mutually dependent than that. You could just as easily flip the phrase and argue that a quality product can only go so far without marketing. Not everyone reads tech blogs, and you surely couldn't gain a significant share of the market back without convincing the average user that BlackBerries are no longer out of date and that they should consider them when making a purchase.

2. Many people are treating the issues as if RIM can only handle them in a mutually exclusive fashion; that RIM needs to "focus" on delivering a quality product rather than marketing, or at the expense of marketing. But it is certainly not the case that within RIM they go to the marketing department (or their outside agency handling marketing materials) and say, "marketing isn't important, we need you to go over to the design department and start building phones that are better than Apple and Android." A company like RIM, even accounting for its recent struggles, certainly has enough resources to develop both the product and its marketing campaign. If it cannot, then it is not prepared to survive this downturn.

So on one side we have people dreaming up elaborate marketing schemes, and on the other side we have realists arguing that the dreamers are forgetting the importance of the product itself. But perhaps we are not all that far off from one another in our views. When I posted in the marketing thread, I mentioned that my marketing idea was proceeding on the assumption that the product will be amazing and will have the novel features necessary to support a creative marketing campaign. I am making this assumption for two reasons. First, like I said before, it's not like RIM is pulling people off marketing and putting them on the engineering team. The ideas are not mutually exclusive. Second, I am making this assumption, because if it in reality my assumptions are not true, and RIM has failed on either side of the issue, then the entire discussion becomes pointless, because RIM will not be able to meet their goals if that's the case.

Either the marketing campaign will get called out as a sham if the product isn't good enough, or the product will be good enough but no one will buy it because they don't believe it in the absence of marketing. RIM needs BOTH.

[bobauckland]

Apple products are mediocre and their marketing is excellent. Deal with it.

Most people don't know what they want a product to do. The easy thing is let a marketing message tell you what you want and simple buy that product. There are some of us who know what we want a product to do and spend effort finding the best fit for us. That makes me immune to marketing for those things I care about.

For those who think great marketing can't sell inferior products, you are wrong. There are many, many examples where the best products fail to a better sold inferior product.

RIM can--and should--sell BB10 before it is "perfect" and market it well and aggressively.

You lose a lot of credibility with a post like this. Theres no way you've tried and spent time with a Macbook within the last 5 years or so if you're posting junk like this, they kill most Windows laptops in just about every way except for gaming.
As for you being immune to marketing, Ill just let that be, Im glad you feel good about yourself.
The iPhone is a decent device. Its not the best at everything, its not the worst at everything, its a good solid device, and better than just about every Android device Ive owned and spent time with. Its not selling on just marketing, although their marketing is excellent.
As for your last line, I think it would be a mistake to sell BB10 before its ready, marketing will not cover the flaws. Clearly other people feel the same way including the decision makers at RIM, at least for now.

Without question, RIM needs to execute both product and marketing flawlessly. However, in the past, I believe RIM has had decent enough products which could have done better were it not for poor, ineffective and un-targeted marketing.

PlayBook is a classic example. Missing features and functionality notwithstanding, RIM could not agree on who the PlayBook was targeting or how to attract them; consequently we got this mishmash of advertising messages that didn't attract anybody. The only people who ended up waiting for it were mostly those who had been following its progress and knew what it was before the first ad ever hit the air. Another big mistake was unrealistic expectation that the PlayBook was going to rival the iPad. Again, knowing your target audience is also part of marketing, not just in advertising, but throughout the whole product development cycle. That effort was like an unmanned fire hose -- lots of energy, but shooting all over the place and not hitting much.

I strongly believe that new management knows better than that. Heins himself has said that they know they cannot be all things to all people, which strongly suggests to me that 1, they are not going to try to go up against iPhone and Android head-on; and 2, they are going to better define which consumers to target, and then effectively market to those consumers.

I agree with most of your post.
The only thing Im iffy about is the last paragraph.

Its way too early to judge Heins yet, but to be honest he hasn't done anything positive or negative, he hasn't done anything to be judged on.
Hes made a few comments, then retracted them, then gone all over the place, but the bottom line is, since he's come in, nothing much has happened at all.

Doesn't say much to me, there were clear areas that needed targeting, Developer relations for example, this doesn't seem to have been shaken up.
BBM going cross platform was spoken of then shot down. So far seems like more of the same. Not sure thats a good thing.

Finally, re your last line, this is my biggest concern. Contrary to what you feel, I think they seem to be targeting iPhone and Android head one, evidenced by the flagship being an all touch slab. This means RIM is giving up a huge headstart.
In addition this could drive away the core customers, the keyboard lovers, and be a huge misstep. Time will tell, but they seem to be going away from what could be considered a traditional BlackBerry device, and instead try and beat iPhone/Android at what they've been perfecting over the last few years.
Asking for more time to release a barely functional product, as was done with the PlayBook, will just end in tears.

[Superfly_FR]

I disagree. History shows great marketing can sell a mediocre product. You need only look at Apple to see that.

You can't write that. And God knows how I dislike these products.
But I'm not "the market", I have my own attempts that I share with ... myself.
"Easy to use" is what made - first - apple success, and the way they did it was far from mediocre. It was brilliant. Brilliant product marketing (how to build a product that meets underlying users attempts).
BTW, BB10 is close to a similar "revolution" proposal and I sincerely believe it will reach the same level of *wow* effect.

[bobauckland]

Mediocre is an opinion word. To say "in my opinion product x is mediocre" would be redundant.

Your thesis is that Apple products are not mediocre because a user satisfaction survey says the majority of users like them. We know the vast majority of iPhone users came from no mobile phone or feature phones. Very few iPhone users came from other smartphones. So we have users whose only experience with a Smartphone is the iPhone saying they like it. That is not statistical useful.

Oh aye, cos that huge percentage of North American BlackBerry users from a few years ago all gave up using mobiles completely right?
No, they went to Apple and Android.
If anything, RIMs worldwide growth is down to worldwide users replacing dumb phones with cheap Curves.
Your argument, yet again, makes absolutely no sense, statistically or otherwise.

[Superfly_FR]

Finally, re your last line, this is my biggest concern. Contrary to what you feel, I think they seem to be targeting iPhone and Android head one, evidenced by the flagship being an all touch slab. This means RIM is giving up a huge headstart.
In addition this could drive away the core customers, the keyboard lovers, and be a huge misstep. Time will tell, but they seem to be going away from what could be considered a traditional BlackBerry device, and instead try and beat iPhone/Android at what they've been perfecting over the last few years.
Asking for more time to release a barely functional product, as was done with the PlayBook, will just end in tears.

Full touchpad is market trend, not targeting x or Z.
RIM does not have the shoulders - now - to face fight apple or google.
Heins stated RIM must focus on loyal customers (Joes and corporations) and that's THE big deal for now. Making the 75M+ current BB users to adopt the BB10 perspective is gaining back a huge evangelist crowd: You can't go to the battle without boarding troupes on you ship first. Timing will be the key. And timing in a business perspective is ... pure and glorious marketing.

[avt123]

Mediocre is an opinion word. To say "in my opinion product x is mediocre" would be redundant.

Your thesis is that Apple products are not mediocre because a user satisfaction survey says the majority of users like them. We know the vast majority of iPhone users came from no mobile phone or feature phones. Very few iPhone users came from other smartphones. So we have users whose only experience with a Smartphone is the iPhone saying they like it. That is not statistical useful.

Apple makes more than just smartphones.

There is a difference with expressing an opinion, and stating something as a fact. You stated that Apple has mediocre products like it was a fact, not like you were just voicing your opinion.

The "vast majority" of people I know who now own iPhones came from Blackberry or Android. Do you have a source that polled this "vast majority"?

[Superfly_FR]

Mediocre is an opinion word. To say "in my opinion product x is mediocre" would be redundant.

Not at all redundant. Wise.

Your thesis is that Apple products are not mediocre because a user satisfaction survey says the majority of users like them. We know the vast majority of iPhone users came from no mobile phone or feature phones. Very few iPhone users came from other smartphones. So we have users whose only experience with a Smartphone is the iPhone saying they like it. That is not statistical useful.

apple products (iphone,ipad,macbook air) are not mediocre because their conception meet what people were waiting for at the time they hit the market. Studies just confirm that. Others brands/devices didn't seduce them, and it's not only because of marketing ...