[MikeLiu]

>Subject: A former employee letter to RIM CEO about RIM and Certicom's moral
>standard
>To: [email protected], [email protected], [email protected],
>[email protected], Chris Hall <[email protected]>
>
>
>Mike,
>
>Your speech during my computer science graduation from University of
>Waterloo was the key of my respect to RIM. You want each one of us to use
>what we learned, to contribute, and to return to our society. Moral is
>important in life, that touched my heart.
>
>I just got laidoff by RIM/Certicom, and I am currently on parental leave. My
>baby boy was born on Feb 28th, 2011, I started my parental leave on April
>23rd 2011, was going to finish my parental leave on January 8th, 2012. I
>gave my manager almost 2 months notice in advance. My baby boy was born in
>Shanghai. Can you imagine that a father didn't see his new born because of
>work. That's a lot of sacrifice and respect to his work!
>
>I joined Certicom full time in January 2006, more than five years with
>Certicom plus two co-op terms before that. Comparing with seven team members
>that haven't got laidoff, I am the second one join the SVV team of Certicom,
>and third join Certicom. "What's the reason of me being laidoff?" I asked my
>manager on the phone, he said he doesn't know. "Is that because I cannot do
>the work, that people didn't get laid off can do", He said he just received
>the list. "Is that because I am on parental leave?". He said no
>.
>During the last two years, there are three managers change in SVV of
>Certicom. I have been doing outstanding job, didn't get properly reviewed
>this year. For example, one of the goals, is the training, I didn't have
>time, and there was no budget for training, is it fair to say the goal is
>not achieved? I have a lot of things to say, but what's the point if I feel
>I have been unfairly played. While I am on parental leave, live in Shanghai
>away from Canada, my manager called me and emailed me, ask me to give him a
>call which tells me I am laidoff, then asked OD to call me. I spent my young
>five year life with RIM/Certicom tirelessly, and got laidoff during parental
>leave as a return!
>
>I didn't get an answer why I got laid off when I am on parental leave,
>that's why I am asking you, the CEO. You just need this one head count cut?
>Am I costing you anything during parental leave? How do you explain the cost
>saving for my layoff to shareholders?
>
>If I cannot get answer from you that satisfy me, I will ask help from other
>groups. i.e. Labor and Employment Standard of Canada, Lawyers,
>Canadian-Chinese association, News Reporters, Analysts from Bay and Wall
>Street. Many talents will rethink to work at RIM or join RIM. Moral standard
>of RIM/Certicom will tell the true face of a company......
>
>Buffet once said �Lose money and I will forgive you, but lose even a shred
>of reputation and I will be ruthless�
>
>Thanks,

[sam_b77]

LMAO...so you took a "paternal" leave. Why, did you have to nurse the baby? What is it with you Americans. You want the world to owe you a living. You have a pair of balls. The best thing you can do for your child is go out and earn enough money to provide them a secure future. Your economy doesn't allow cry babies.

Nature made it so that Women needed to nurture a child. It's admirable that modern women can have babies and still work on their careers and balance the two.

But men whining.... What if early man stayed at home and didn't hunt just because he had a child.... They would have starved. Man up dude and go to work.

[CrackedBarry]

The Chinese Canadian Association?!? What on earth do they have to do with anything?! Hopefully the writer won't get anything more than a LOL and GTFO out of such a lame attempt at playing the race card.

This post def takes the price for whinyness and false sense of entitlement. RIM is pretty much up against the wall right now, lots of layoffs in the company but hey... gotta look out for number one, eh?

Don't get me wrong... Parental leave should NEVER be the reason to fire someone. But at the same time, it shouldn't put someone above layoffs either, especially when the company is in a crisis, and needs to lose some of the dead weight.

[MikeLiu]

The point is during his parental leave, government paid him. It cost company nothing, company cheated investors for the head counts

[cbvinh]

He may have been laid off merely for head count. I don't know if that would have been a more satisfactory answer for him but maybe that would give him solace in that it wasn't because of his work performance or because he was on parental leave... unless his manager is a coward and picked someone out-of-the-office so he/she wouldn't have to deal with the issue (firing) directly. It wouldn't be a RIM/parental leave issue as a manager issue. I'm only speculating.

Good luck to him.

[kenshaw]

I have never understood why a guy needs to go on parental leave. I can see taking a few weeks off to help the mother after the baby is born, but almost a year? Sounds like trying to milk the system.

[Economist101]

Sounds like trying to milk the system.

No pun intended I'm sure.

[[email protected]]

LMAO...so you took a "paternal" leave. Why, did you have to nurse the baby? What is it with you Americans. You want the world to owe you a living. You have a pair of balls. The best thing you can do for your child is go out and earn enough money to provide them a secure future. Your economy doesn't allow cry babies.

Nature made it so that Women needed to nurture a child. It's admirable that modern women can have babies and still work on their careers and balance the two.

But men whining.... What if early man stayed at home and didn't hunt just because he had a child.... They would have starved. Man up dude and go to work.

What wrong with paternity leave for a man who wants to help out with his children.

What's with you Indians believing that men can't do more than bring home a paycheck?

We left the caves a long time ago. Moved into condos with better views.

[reeneebob]

LMAO...so you took a "paternal" leave. Why, did you have to nurse the baby? What is it with you Americans. You want the world to owe you a living. You have a pair of balls. The best thing you can do for your child is go out and earn enough money to provide them a secure future. Your economy doesn't allow cry babies.

Nature made it so that Women needed to nurture a child. It's admirable that modern women can have babies and still work on their careers and balance the two.

But men whining.... What if early man stayed at home and didn't hunt just because he had a child.... They would have starved. Man up dude and go to work.

This is one of the most offensive posts I've read in a long time.

[Chrisy]

Lol. Don't Europeans get like 6 weeks paid vacation?

[app_Developer]

LMAO...so you took a "paternal" leave. Why, did you have to nurse the baby? What is it with you Americans. You want the world to owe you a living. You have a pair of balls. The best thing you can do for your child is go out and earn enough money to provide them a secure future. Your economy doesn't allow cry babies.

What does this story have to do with America or Americans?

Nature made it so that Women needed to nurture a child. It's admirable that modern women can have babies and still work on their careers and balance the two.

Given that this is admirable for women, why wouldn't it also be admirable for men?

But men whining.... What if early man stayed at home and didn't hunt just because he had a child.... They would have starved. Man up dude and go to work.

Man up, dude, and come into the 21st century.

[MikeLiu]

Ironically, the person's new manager was an India named Dinesh Thandapany

[reeneebob]

Personally I have great respect for a man who takes pat leave after the mothers mat leave is over to allow her to return to work but allow the child to remain with a parent and not in a daycare, and has the extra time to bond with their child.

That's a man.

If this is true, and if the writer is a Canadian living in China, I'm fairly certain that RIM just broke labour laws. I know a mother can't be laid off while on mat leave, and that if the mothers job is phased out while she is gone she MUST be brought back into an equivalent job with equal pay scale of her original position. I can't imagine, considering that in Canada pat leave is also protected, it would be a different thing.

Because, sam_b77, in Canada parenting means more than earning a paycheque, and men are encouraged to take pat leave subsequent to the mothers mat leave. It is called being a man. Something you need to learn about, apparently.

[CrackedBarry]

Hey, nothing wrong with paternal leave, kids need to have a father as well as a mother.

As long as you realize that it carries some risks. (There is a reason why women are often paid less than men at the same age.) Taking 6 months or a year off means you might lose out on a promotion or not miss out on a new development in your area of expertise.

But whining about being let go during paternal leave, WHEN YOU WORK FOR A COMPANY GOING THROUGH A MAJOR CRISIS, is just ridiculous. Especially when you bring up thinly veiled threats and references to sexism/racism etc.

I mean Christ, RIM has what... 30.000 employees or 50.000? Does he really expect Mike Lazaridis to know the exact reason he got fired?

[CairnsRock]

If you are a mgr. In a large corporation and are assigned say 8 headcount. If one goes on leave, you can,t replace him. He,s still a headcount. So the 8 headcount workload needs to be done by 7. Extremely unfair to the rest of the unit.
If a mgr. Is directed to reduce his headcount by 25%. Then easy decision. His weakest employee and the guy who,s not there anyways are gone. Easy decision. Job done.
If the mgr won,t do it, he will be gone.

[SnoozerBold]

Well this explains why BB 10 was delayed until fall 2012
Is this going to affect my bold 9790? Or my playbook? I've only had the pb a month. But i did upgrade to 2.0 when I first booted it up so I should be OK right? . I'd hate for it to be useless already.
I'm not looking forward to what happens when the markets open tomorrow.

[FSeverino]

LMAO...so you took a "paternal" leave. Why, did you have to nurse the baby? What is it with you Americans. You want the world to owe you a living. You have a pair of balls. The best thing you can do for your child is go out and earn enough money to provide them a secure future. Your economy doesn't allow cry babies.

Nature made it so that Women needed to nurture a child. It's admirable that modern women can have babies and still work on their careers and balance the two.

But men whining.... What if early man stayed at home and didn't hunt just because he had a child.... They would have starved. Man up dude and go to work.

wow...

if EARLY man didnt HUNT we would have died off as a species, but because they did that we have EVOLVED and created a society where we dont need to HUNT or GATHER and we can ENJOY time with our children.

What if this guys wife made more money then him? ... by your definition he should have been the one doing the entire leave so that the family would have more money. Some things are not about money my friend. Give me a healthy kid and a job over a well paying job with no family any day of the week.

[app_Developer]

If you are a mgr. In a large corporation and are assigned say 8 headcount. If one goes on leave, you can,t replace him. He,s still a headcount. So the 8 headcount workload needs to be done by 7. Extremely unfair to the rest of the unit.
If a mgr. Is directed to reduce his headcount by 25%. Then easy decision. His weakest employee and the guy who,s not there anyways are gone. Easy decision. Job done.
If the mgr won,t do it, he will be gone.

If you were the manager, would you let go a woman on maternity leave?

[RIMvanWinkle]

We know nothing of what really happened.

However, this guy would not post this here if his grab for the crown of victimhood had been successful.

[[email protected]]

If you are a mgr. In a large corporation and are assigned say 8 headcount. If one goes on leave, you can,t replace him. He,s still a headcount. So the 8 headcount workload needs to be done by 7. Extremely unfair to the rest of the unit.
If a mgr. Is directed to reduce his headcount by 25%. Then easy decision. His weakest employee and the guy who,s not there anyways are gone. Easy decision. Job done.
If the mgr won,t do it, he will be gone.

Glad I never worked with you.

In many states here in the US you cannot lay someone off while they're on medical leave(which is what maternity and paternity can be considered).

You have to wait until they physically come back before to letting them go.

I've worked on several sales teams and if someone had to take time off, the rest us pinched in and filled the gap.

That's what good team members do.

[cbvinh]

If you are a mgr. In a large corporation and are assigned say 8 headcount. If one goes on leave, you can,t replace him. He,s still a headcount. So the 8 headcount workload needs to be done by 7. Extremely unfair to the rest of the unit.
If a mgr. Is directed to reduce his headcount by 25%. Then easy decision. His weakest employee and the guy who,s not there anyways are gone. Easy decision. Job done.
If the mgr won,t do it, he will be gone.

If the leave isn't parental leave, then perhaps "easy decision"; otherwise, it may be against Canadian law:

Pamphlet 5 - Labour Standards - Maternity-Related Reassignment and Leave, Maternity Leave and Parental Leave

"21. Can an employer dismiss or lay off an employee because she is pregnant or has applied for or intends to apply for maternity, maternity-related reassignment or leave or parental leave?

No. An employer may not dismiss, suspend, lay off, demote or discipline an employee because she is pregnant or has applied for or intends to apply for maternity or parental leave, maternity-related reassignment or leave or modification of her job functions. An employer cannot take pregnancy into account in any decision to promote or train an employee."

Canadian Legal FAQS- Employment Law/Maternity & Parental Leave

"The Employment Standards Code says that an employer cannot terminate an employee who is on maternity or parental leave, unless the employer suspends or discontinues the business. Your wife may have a complaint under human rights legislation although she will probably have to provide some evidence that the lay-off is connected to her pregnancy."

-----

It's probably why his manager said it wasn't because of his parental leave over the phone.

[anthogag]

Almost nine months paternal leave for a man...I think you're a prime candidate if there's lay-offs...you're like almost forgotten at the company after that kind of time-off

[reeneebob]

Almost nine months paternal leave for a man...I think you're a prime candidate if there's lay-offs...you're like almost forgotten at the company after that kind of time-off

Second most offensive post I've seen in a while.

Really? And this is different if the person on leave has ovaries?

Shocker - good friend of mine and her husband? EACH TOOK A YEAR MAT/PAT LEAVE.

And don't regret it one bit. And they didn't lose their jobs for it. Because it's illegal.

I hope he takes RIM to the cleaners because they can't lay off a worker on a pat leave, whether they say it's not because of it or not. There is paperwork that is in place for a paternal leave. He was on it. He can't lose his job, and the Canadian government and Labour board should throw the book at RIM.

[lnichols]

LMAO...so you took a "paternal" leave. Why, did you have to nurse the baby? What is it with you Americans. You want the world to owe you a living. You have a pair of balls. The best thing you can do for your child is go out and earn enough money to provide them a secure future. Your economy doesn't allow cry babies.

Nature made it so that Women needed to nurture a child. It's admirable that modern women can have babies and still work on their careers and balance the two.

But men whining.... What if early man stayed at home and didn't hunt just because he had a child.... They would have starved. Man up dude and go to work.

WTF does this have to do with Americans?!? Clearly states Canadians! Love the anti-american sentiments constantly posted on this board.

[PineappleUnderTheSea]

If you are a mgr. In a large corporation and are assigned say 8 headcount. If one goes on leave, you can,t replace him. He,s still a headcount. So the 8 headcount workload needs to be done by 7. Extremely unfair to the rest of the unit.
If a mgr. Is directed to reduce his headcount by 25%. Then easy decision. His weakest employee and the guy who,s not there anyways are gone. Easy decision. Job done.
If the mgr won,t do it, he will be gone.

I've witnesses about 6 layoff cycles during the last 10 years (thankfully I was always "safe"), and I can't begin to tell you how wrong you are about how companies decide who stays and who goes. I'm not going to get into it here, but let's just say it's typically not about who is the weakest, it's about who they don't need. Big difference. I've seen top people laid off.