1. capitalst's Avatar
    Well I have to admit I think I made a serious mistake. On Tuesday I decided to dump the iPhone and go back to an BB after 8 months with an iPhone which I hated the virtual keyboard and battery life. So I decided on the Bold 9700 at ATT. I saw the new Torch which they weren't selling till Thursday. Nice phone but wasn't sure I would like the flip up slider thing and so on.

    Anyways, after playing with the Bold which I love the form of it I was feeling I was missing a few things screen size and the new functions of the OS 6. So I made what I call a huge mistake today. I exchanged it for the Torch. At first it seem nice and felt I made a good decision. Now playing with it through out the day I have to say I dislike it A LOT.

    First off the battery which was fully changed by 3pm today is already down to 60% 6 hours later which light use. On the Bold I would get to this percentage after almost a full days use with calls which I didn't even use the phone except for one call for 3 minutes.

    The volume stinks on this as well as the ring volume. Both don't even come close to the Bold.

    Also, The keyboard lock bottom is so touchy that it gets hit in your pocket and ends up unlocking the phone which you know where that leads being in your pocket.

    Using the Browser is nicer but lags a LOT when zooming and so on. Which I was something I was looking forward to with the having the bigger screen which to be honest is waste since it really just gets to you after a while. BB has a LOOONG way to go till they hit the iphone level with Browsing still...

    Touch screen is a lot better then the Storm but still not that great.

    The regular keyboard actually hurts your palm after awhile since its so think on the bottom section that it is uncomfortable. Not worth the pain which is why I came back to the BB so i could enjoy typing on a regular keyboard comfortably for long emails and so on.

    Pushing the back bottom and end bottom area creaks and also moves a lot between the two slider pieces if that makes any sense. Feels like the phone is loose.

    Anyways, enough venting I just hope that the store will allow me to exchange it back for another new Bold and leave this big mess I mad behind me.

    These are just a few things that I think others should be consider which I didn't see really any review covering much on.

    In my eyes the Torch is a failure by BB again when it comes to the whole touch screen arena.

    Sorry if the grammar is and so on is bad. Felt like typing this and sending it off while i was pissed at myself about my bad choice. Just didn't want you guys to make the same mistake if these things would bother you.
    08-14-10 09:58 PM
  2. jcp007's Avatar
    Chug on over to namby pamby land and get some self-confidence....The whambulance is waiting to take you there. I really detest the lack of patience and the unrealistic expectations as well as the perfectionist mentality of those who feel that they are entitled to a perfect device. Take some personal responsibility. Do your research and test the device before you leave the store. It seems that nothing that anyone says will change your mind. Hope you find a toy that suits your needs. Please move on. OR At least, do an exchange, test drive the new one and don't leave the store until they bring one out that does not have issues. Once you get home, really dig into the device more than 10 hours to really decide that the Torch is not for you. Nothing personal, really, I have just been around berries long enough that I have gotten a little frustrated with these types of posts.
    Last edited by jcp007; 08-14-10 at 10:16 PM.
    08-14-10 10:07 PM
  3. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    The battery hasn't charged enough cycles, and the OS is in it's infancy. A dollop of patience may be required. Spend a few days with it at least, for Pete sakes.
    08-14-10 10:15 PM
  4. fsufan1200#CB's Avatar
    Return It, You Don't Deserve It.............My Phone Came Off The Charger At 6:30AM, And It's At 45% Left. Let's See That's 17-Hours..........PLEASE!
    08-14-10 10:27 PM
  5. dLo GSR's Avatar
    You guys really can't take negative criticism can you? You need to call the waaahmbulance for yourselves.

    BTW, OP, it's BUTTON. A bottom is the lower end of something. A button is something you press.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    08-14-10 10:28 PM
  6. tumer's Avatar
    you cant compare the 9700 to the torch as far as battery.
    there arent to many phones that can last as long as the 9700 defintly not the iphone or androids
    08-14-10 10:38 PM
  7. tedzone's Avatar
    Wow. You guys just creamed the OP. Gotta love BB fans. And I sure am glad I'm on YOUR side. :-) lol

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    08-14-10 10:53 PM
  8. mark_rivers19's Avatar
    i don't experience most of the issues that you posted.
    especially the battery life.. it's been 48 hrs since last charge and i still have 20%
    my setting is 3G, no wifi, 50% brightness and no running apps on the background..
    i do 4-5 calls a day, receive and answer emails 100-120/day. BBM, facebook and twitter during my breaks but no video nor music playback.. YET.
    can i suggest you try the Droid.. it seems iphone 4 is not into your liking as well
    08-14-10 10:54 PM
  9. JasW's Avatar
    The battery hasn't charged enough cycles
    What do you base that on? The crappy battery that I (and a number of others, but, importantly, not all) have been experiencing is the only problem I have with the phone. I've been using BBs since the days when they were powered by a single AA battery, and I simply don't recall that cycling through battery charges when the device is new improves battery life.
    08-14-10 10:54 PM
  10. capitalst's Avatar
    I'm sorry if I offended any of you with my review. I only wanted to shed light on my experience and frustration with the Torch so hopefully anyone else considering changing out for the Torch seriously consider these what "I" would call down falls. Again, this is only my opinion which I felt would be worth while for anyone that might be bothered by some of the things I listed which they could play with the phone first hand to see how they feel about all this.

    Yes, I jumped the gun and wanted the newest BB out there and should have stuck with what I loved best about my old Bold 9000 I had a year ago which was the form factor and the keyboard. The 9700 really does feel right in your hand and really really hope they work with me tomorrow to swap it out ONE MORE TIME.

    I wish all of you luck with your new Torch and if you like what it has to offer you and none of these items bug you have a blast with it. I hope you enjoy it. For me the 9700 is the right device for me. I will look forward to the OS6 upgrade within the next few months.
    08-14-10 11:00 PM
  11. capitalst's Avatar
    Also, I do have about 8 years of prior experience with Blackberry's which is why I'm coming back home to BB. I use a Mac and figured why not get an iPhone that will work well with my Mac since at the time BB wasn't really supporting Mac with regards to DM. Now they do and I'm back for good.
    08-14-10 11:02 PM
  12. jcp007's Avatar
    Trade the macBook Pro in for a real laptop and then your 9700 will be happy. All the best to you in your decision. Sorry the Torch wasn't for you although you should give it more than 10 hours and do an exchange first before you make your FINAL decision. Decisions made in haste often result in regret.
    08-14-10 11:11 PM
  13. Roo Zilla's Avatar
    What do you base that on? The crappy battery that I (and a number of others, but, importantly, not all) have been experiencing is the only problem I have with the phone. I've been using BBs since the days when they were powered by a single AA battery, and I simply don't recall that cycling through battery charges when the device is new improves battery life.
    You're right. Modern Li-ion batteries don't need conditioning, nor do they suffer from memory effect. Any literature written saying they need conditioning is BS. All Li-ion batteries contain circuitry to prevent various things, including overcharging and undercharging. They do however, tend to permanently lose charge over time, something like 20% a year, but more or less depending on temperature and the charge level they're stored at. For example, keeping the the battery constantly at around 40-50% charge will dramatically extend it's usable life. Li-ion batteries used in cars are never kept at full charge because of this reason.
    08-14-10 11:16 PM
  14. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    I'm sorry if I offended any of you with my review. I only wanted to shed light on my experience and frustration with the Torch so hopefully anyone else considering changing out for the Torch seriously consider these what "I" would call down falls. Again, this is only my opinion which I felt would be worth while for anyone that might be bothered by some of the things I listed which they could play with the phone first hand to see how they feel about all this.

    Yes, I jumped the gun and wanted the newest BB out there and should have stuck with what I loved best about my old Bold 9000 I had a year ago which was the form factor and the keyboard. The 9700 really does feel right in your hand and really really hope they work with me tomorrow to swap it out ONE MORE TIME.

    I wish all of you luck with your new Torch and if you like what it has to offer you and none of these items bug you have a blast with it. I hope you enjoy it. For me the 9700 is the right device for me. I will look forward to the OS6 upgrade within the next few months.
    Your review is after so little use to be meaningless. Jump the gun you certainly did. I suspect there will be another thread like this, when the 9780 comes out shortly, and you those buyer's remorse feelings wash over you again.

    Yes, I know all about the documentation of lithium-ion batteries. I also know from experience, it takes a few days for the battery and OS to cohabitate, and the true battery life realized. Read any OS thread, especially the hybrid threads, and you'll see plenty of testament to that fact. I'd tend to disagree with it to, but the evidence is overwhelming.
    08-14-10 11:49 PM
  15. dwadwa's Avatar
    You're right. Modern Li-ion batteries don't need conditioning, nor do they suffer from memory effect. Any literature written saying they need conditioning is BS. All Li-ion batteries contain circuitry to prevent various things, including overcharging and undercharging. They do however, tend to permanently lose charge over time, something like 20% a year, but more or less depending on temperature and the charge level they're stored at. For example, keeping the the battery constantly at around 40-50% charge will dramatically extend it's usable life. Li-ion batteries used in cars are never kept at full charge because of this reason.
    Li-on battery in car???

    ok..

    The most important factor influencing the battery's lifespan is HEAT.

    So don't place your cell under sunlight for hours.
    08-14-10 11:52 PM
  16. Roo Zilla's Avatar
    Li-on battery in car???

    ok..

    The most important factor influencing the battery's lifespan is HEAT.

    So don't place your cell under sunlight for hours.
    Ever hear of Tesla? It uses a power pack composed of about 6000+ Li-ion cells. Chevy Volt uses a smaller pack with larger cells and only needs about 200 cells. In a few years, maybe decades, if Altairnano can ever develop a cheap manufacturing method for it's cells, you'll see a dramatic increase in both durability and usability in electric cars. For example, 10 minute charging time is possible, and thermal runaway would be virtually eliminated.

    Heat does affect a Li-ion cell's lifespan negatively. Keeping it over 100F and fully charged will make it lose almost half its capacity over a year. Keeping it only half charged at the same temp will make it lose only about a sixth. The worst is keeping it fully charged and at high temp.
    Last edited by Roo Zilla; 08-15-10 at 02:57 AM.
    08-15-10 02:23 AM
  17. dfairlite's Avatar
    no need to take it back i'll buy it from you for $525
    08-15-10 02:36 AM
  18. dwadwa's Avatar
    Ever hear of Tesla? It uses a power pack composed of about 6000+ Li-ion cells. Chevy Volt uses a smaller pack with larger cells and only needs about 200 cells. In a few years, maybe decades, if Altairnano can ever develop a cheap manufacturing method for it's cells, you'll see a dramatic increase in both durability and usability in electric cars. For example, 10 minute charging time is possible, and thermal runaway would be virtually eliminated.

    Heat does affect a Li-ion cell's lifespan negatively. Keeping it over 100F will make it lose almost half its capacity over a year. Keeping it only half charged at the same temp will make it lose only about a sixth. The worst is keeping it fully charged and at high temp.
    I see. Not familiar with the batteries in car. Are you talking about the batteries in electric cars? or in normal cars? Thought they are less expensive than Li-on batteries.

    Anyway good to know.
    08-15-10 02:48 AM
  19. Roo Zilla's Avatar


    Yes, I know all about the documentation of lithium-ion batteries. I also know from experience, it takes a few days for the battery and OS to cohabitate, and the true battery life realized. Read any OS thread, especially the hybrid threads, and you'll see plenty of testament to that fact. I'd tend to disagree with it to, but the evidence is overwhelming.
    No. What people are experiencing is what is called "top off charge." They tell you to charge the battery for 12 hours when you get it. What that does is it basically overcharges the battery. Unlike other batteries, Li-ion cells have circuitry built into them to prevent overcharging over a certain point and undercharging under a certain point. The circuitry in most Li-ion cells tell the device it's fully charged right around 4 volts. It will keep charging it though, until the protection circuit kicks in at around 4.3 volts or so. It's the protection circuit that stops the charging, that's very important to understand. You can't charge it any more than the circuit allows. Full charge in a Li-ion battery is kind of like the "5 bars" thing. There's a whole range of dB which is "5 bars," and there's a whole range of charge that a Li-ion battery's circuitry will report as "full charge." This is one reason why you see people reporting differing battery performance. Two people may see full charge on their device, but one of them might actually have "fuller charge."

    Again, Li-ion doesn't exhibit memory effect, so you can't improve it's charge capacity by discharge and recharge cycles. Li-ion actually has circuitry to prevent full discharge. You permanently kill a Li-ion cell if you drop it below a certain voltage.

    So again, a Li-ion battery has circuitry to prevent it from charging beyond a certain safety point. It also has circuitry to prevent it from falling below a certain discharge point to prevent it from bricking itself. Charge and discharge cycles do not really fully charge and fully discharge a Li-ion cell. The only thing left is the chemistry. Li-ion chemistry will deteriorate over time and charge and discharge cycles. It NEVER gets better with time. There is some hope on the horizon with some nanotech, but mass production of nanotech is not easy nor cheap, so it might be a while.

    EDIT: I guess I should mention that there are some instances when charge and discharge cycles will help, but it's not what you think. I've never seen it done with cell phone batteries though, most likely because they're all single cell. That's why I didn't mention it. Some laptop batteries have calibration circuitry to try and match with the charging circuitry on a laptop mainboard. Basically, this allows a laptop to better monitor certain aspects of the cells and how far it can go beyond the 4V and also the condition of the cells to prevent mismatches. Battery packs in cars have very advanced monitoring circuitry. It can do stuff like track types of mismatches in individual cells which need replacement.
    Last edited by Roo Zilla; 08-15-10 at 03:31 AM.
    08-15-10 02:50 AM
  20. Roo Zilla's Avatar
    I see. Not familiar with the batteries in car. Are you talking about the batteries in electric cars? or in normal cars? Thought they are less expensive than Li-on batteries.

    Anyway good to know.
    Batteries in electric cars. AFAIK, hybrid cars are still using NiMH batteries, but that might have changed recently. I think I heard some news about a year ago that Toyota was going to start using Li-ion in their Prius models soon.

    Gas powered cars use lead-acid storage batteries. The more expensive ones and motorcycles use something called advance glass mat storage batteries. I believe most data storage centers are now using similar AGM batteries as backups.
    Last edited by Roo Zilla; 08-15-10 at 03:00 AM.
    08-15-10 02:52 AM
  21. zensen's Avatar
    these type of posts work better when you haven't just written it when your calm and collective... otherwise it just comes off as being a rant than just being constructive.

    I'm not sure if you've had a slider before but i dont think you have... I think you still need to give it a couple of days and some time to wear the battery in. ones things for sure the 9700 does have a great form factor and battery life but like you said the screen real estate isn't as big for your needs, so are you still going to be happy?
    08-15-10 03:21 AM
  22. tarek307's Avatar
    OP: i agree with you about the keyboard, i was totally hoping for the best of both worlds, touchscreen for browsing & a normal blackberry keyboard, but that keybaord is way too awkward and skinny...either way i'm still staying with BlackBerry but back to my 9700
    08-15-10 04:58 AM
  23. qbnkelt's Avatar
    @OP - the 9700 is an excellent device. I have one, many members of my family have one after they saw mine. My MUM, for goodness' sake, has been rocking a 9700 since last May and she LOVES it. SO much so she puts her on her nightstand and two weeks ago she called me in a PANIC because she had dunked it in a glass of water by accident. she had already taken the battery out and dried it with her hair dryer. IT STILL WORKS PERFECTLY!!!!!
    Now, I think she may have had divine providence on her side, and I'm not suggesting that you test its quality by doing that - all I'm saying is that it's a rock solid device and well worth it.
    The Torch is perfect for me, but to each his own. It may not be for you. The iPhone is not for me. Android does not excite me.
    I can give my recommendation to the 9700. I got the Torch because I'm an addict, a geek. I've had many phones across many platforms, excepting Android, and I happen to be happiest and most satisfied with Blackberries.
    Get what works for you.
    08-15-10 05:41 AM
  24. Calotag's Avatar
    I undersatand what thw OP is trying to say. I remember going from my previous phomnes to the new phones and I alwady felt like it was an instant upgrade. I never had to get use to it to like. I like them right out the box.
    So I think to all you that are saying u need a couple of days to know if u like it, ur wrong. You're just hoping u get used to all the bad stuff so that you don't feel they are bad then.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    08-15-10 07:08 AM
  25. zkyevolved's Avatar
    No. What people are experiencing is what is called "top off charge." They tell you to charge the battery for 12 hours when you get it. What that does is it basically overcharges the battery. Unlike other batteries, Li-ion cells have circuitry built into them to prevent overcharging over a certain point and undercharging under a certain point. The circuitry in most Li-ion cells tell the device it's fully charged right around 4 volts. It will keep charging it though, until the protection circuit kicks in at around 4.3 volts or so. It's the protection circuit that stops the charging, that's very important to understand. You can't charge it any more than the circuit allows. Full charge in a Li-ion battery is kind of like the "5 bars" thing. There's a whole range of dB which is "5 bars," and there's a whole range of charge that a Li-ion battery's circuitry will report as "full charge." This is one reason why you see people reporting differing battery performance. Two people may see full charge on their device, but one of them might actually have "fuller charge."

    Again, Li-ion doesn't exhibit memory effect, so you can't improve it's charge capacity by discharge and recharge cycles. Li-ion actually has circuitry to prevent full discharge. You permanently kill a Li-ion cell if you drop it below a certain voltage.

    So again, a Li-ion battery has circuitry to prevent it from charging beyond a certain safety point. It also has circuitry to prevent it from falling below a certain discharge point to prevent it from bricking itself. Charge and discharge cycles do not really fully charge and fully discharge a Li-ion cell. The only thing left is the chemistry. Li-ion chemistry will deteriorate over time and charge and discharge cycles. It NEVER gets better with time. There is some hope on the horizon with some nanotech, but mass production of nanotech is not easy nor cheap, so it might be a while.

    EDIT: I guess I should mention that there are some instances when charge and discharge cycles will help, but it's not what you think. I've never seen it done with cell phone batteries though, most likely because they're all single cell. That's why I didn't mention it. Some laptop batteries have calibration circuitry to try and match with the charging circuitry on a laptop mainboard. Basically, this allows a laptop to better monitor certain aspects of the cells and how far it can go beyond the 4V and also the condition of the cells to prevent mismatches. Battery packs in cars have very advanced monitoring circuitry. It can do stuff like track types of mismatches in individual cells which need replacement.
    Actually what cycles do is help the METER inside the battery correctly display the voltage. That's what you're getting. My first bold 9000 battery dropped to 10% for about 2 hours before going to 5% with always on constant use on 3g. That's not normal. it was teh first charge and it wasn't displaying correctly. The battery itself was fine, but it just wasn't correctly showing the current state of charge. That's why discharge and recharge does, calibrate the battery meter, not the battery itself.
    08-15-10 07:15 AM
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