1. fecurtis's Avatar
    Boy Genius Report typically doesn't bash RIM (unlike Engadget) so I was kinda taken aback on their hands on with the Torch. Normally I'd just post this under the Torch forum, but they specifically made a comment about OS 6 so I'll share it here:

    The software is typical RIM � uninspired, old, clunky sometimes, and cluttered. Even with the new UI elements in OS 6, we experienced choppiness in the web browser, hangs navigating between screens, and a general feeling of well� claustrophobia sometimes. The simplified BlackBerry now sort of feels like too much has been added without thinking of the ramifications.
    They also noted that they felt as if the phone's hardware were virtually maxed out right out of the box. Could this be the extra memory that having both a trackpad AND touchscreen on one device use up?

    BlackBerry Torch 9800 hands on � Boy Genius Report

    Engadget also noted that while loading larger webpages, there was still lag and it was a bit clunky but once the page loaded, everything ran smoothly. PC Mag also noted that there was lag when swiping between different "home" screens.

    Maybe these are just minor kinks to work out before release time, at least I hope so. OS 6 looks really good, it'd be a shame if the hardware held the software back.

    EDIT:
    Kevin has given the software a far more favorable review:
    Where oh where do we begin on this one? Ever since we saw the first promo video of BlackBerry 6 back at WES 2010 we've been chomping at the bit to play around with it -- and now, for the first time we have. A collective "wow" gets inserted here. It would take forever to sum up all the new features, but BlackBerry 6 is where it's at. The homescreen has five views -- All, Favorites, Frequent, Media and Downloads -- all of which serve their purpose and do it well. Dragging up the tray from the bottom of the screen reveals your icons, and you can then swipe left or right to change views. Scrolling through was quick and easy and there was really no noticable lag. Tapping an icon opens the application, alternatively you can use the optical trackpad to get around as well.

    Some great "shortcuts" have been added into BlackBerry 6 as well. All of the items in the banner are now clickable. Click the signal indicator to jump to Manage Connections, the clock to open the Clock app, message alerts to see your Messages and the profile icon to change your profile. Very cool.

    Overall there is a really a new coat of paint all around. The application switcher has been updated allowing for easy flow between apps. It has a new look and is much improved which should make for much easier multitasking. Icon menus are much cleaner and things just look amazing.

    Save the best for last? Of course! How bout that WebKit browser??! Its what a browser on BlackBerry should be. No longer will we avoid using it (admittingly we have in the past). Tabs, speed, pinch to zoom and more - its all there. MUCH more on this to come so stay tuned.

    Ultimately the Torch is where its at. We'll have loads of BB6 and Torch coverage in the coming days, so keep it here as things get rolling.
    It sounds like existing Blackberry fans may love this device (or at least the OS) but like BGR noted, it may not deter Android and iPhone fans, or those looking to purchase one of the two to take a look at RIM.

    Way too early to tell since this is just feedback from folks who briefly played with the device so I guess we'll find out shortly.
    Last edited by fecurtis; 08-03-10 at 03:52 PM.
    08-03-10 03:48 PM
  2. rockwilder's Avatar
    Like i said before, instead of innovating they have tried merely to catch up to other Os's, except that they have done it with extremely underwhelming hardware. It seems like RIM reached the pinnacle of their success with the BOLD and they just cant keep up with the competition anymore.
    08-03-10 03:52 PM
  3. Username00089's Avatar
    Like i said before, instead of innovating they have tried merely to catch up to other Os's, except that they have done it with extremely underwhelming hardware. It seems like RIM reached the pinnacle of their success with the BOLD and they just cant keep up with the competition anymore.
    That's pretty much all it is. If they would make the friggin' hardware to support
    something even better they wouldn't have many problems. Just wait and see
    when all the people here who were hoping and praying that their 9700's get
    OS 6 start to complain about how slow and choppy their phone is.
    08-03-10 04:44 PM
  4. Rooster99's Avatar
    Kevin = "... there was really no noticable lag."

    BGR = "... hangs navigating between screens, ...

    Engadget = "... noted that while loading larger webpages, there was still lag ..." - perhaps a different issue

    Who's smoking what?

    - R.
    08-03-10 04:54 PM
  5. Username00089's Avatar
    I don't take too much into account what Kevin says to tell you the truth. "Noticeable"
    is almost subjective.
    08-03-10 05:06 PM
  6. avt123's Avatar
    Well you have two blogs that have general coverage of all smartphones giving a review, and then you have a known BlackBerry fanboy (****, he does run this site lol) giving a review. The OS might have intrigued him enough to not even care to notice the lag. But so far sites are saying there is lag so I will believe them until I try it at the local AT&T store myself.
    08-03-10 05:10 PM
  7. mniniSnowta's Avatar
    so 6.0 is kinda of a let down tell rim get the hardware that it need to run 6.0 bgr is saying. Cuz Iv seen some you tube vids of 9800 on action it looked great to me an fast but who knows tell we try right.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    08-03-10 05:34 PM
  8. The_Engine's Avatar
    Kinds funny how when the storm 1 came out it was commented that the software needed to catch up with the hardware and now under 2 years later RIM has gone 180 degrees and needs the hardware to catch up.

    Hopefully just some performance tuning in the OS. It is only build 135 or whatever. Fcuk, they still don't have OS 5 right like 800 builds in.

    If they can't get this running fluid and fast by drop date, or within 2 weeks after that, 30 days from release, then I think we will all start to hear the fat lady...

    I hope they do, but we'll see.

    (and of course Kevin will talk it up, his lively hood is based on RIM having subscribers who need a resource like CB. RIM goes down and dear old kevin will right behind)

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    08-03-10 05:35 PM
  9. quojo's Avatar
    Nuff said, this is a major let down
    08-03-10 06:02 PM
  10. Broly's Avatar
    RIM deserves all the crap that they are getting right now.

    They made this freaking choice to use the Bold 1 processor in the 9800. They refuse to make their handsets actually worth the price of admission.

    I honestly believed their cheap behinds would eventually cough up and go Cortex A8 this year with their newer phones, but to no avail.

    Get real guys, RIM isn't going to change the CPU of their phone for a long time, and this phone is evidence of it.

    It fricken irritates me that a company thinks their customers are stupid enough to pay a subsidized price equivalent to their competitor when the performacne of their competitors hardware is easily 2 times better.

    That's the truth.

    Go cortex A8/A9 soon rim, or lose most of your customers forever. You bloody jerks.
    08-03-10 06:47 PM
  11. avt123's Avatar
    RIM deserves all the crap that they are getting right now.

    They made this freaking choice to use the Bold 1 processor in the 9800. They refuse to make their handsets actually worth the price of admission.

    I honestly believed their cheap behinds would eventually cough up and go Cortex A8 this year with their newer phones, but to no avail.

    Get real guys, RIM isn't going to change the CPU of their phone for a long time, and this phone is evidence of it.


    It fricken irritates me that a company thinks their customers are stupid enough to pay a subsidized price equivalent to their competitor when the performacne of their competitors hardware is easily 2 times better.

    That's the truth.

    Go cortex A8/A9 soon rim, or lose most of your customers forever. You bloody jerks.
    Why would they? Then they wouldn't have an excuse for a refresh in 6 months. Higher res screen and a faster processor.
    08-03-10 06:49 PM
  12. papped's Avatar
    Why would they? Then they wouldn't have an excuse for a refresh in 6 months. Higher res screen and a faster processor.
    Yeah because Android devices don't do that regardless... Upgrading specs clearly has not prevented ANYONE from constant refreshes.
    08-03-10 06:58 PM
  13. sivan's Avatar
    OS6 is certainly innovative, but not what people expect:

    1. Wireless sync
    2. Camera app
    3. Unified feeds including RSS and Podcasts
    4. Quick access to wireless settings, notifications and search from the home screen
    5. Contextual menus
    6. Built in ad support and carrier billing
    7. Some nice additions to the SDK and push services

    But the reality is that people don't pay attention to functionality like this. Few care that it's a lot quicker to move around than on either the iPhone or Android. People think of innovation in visual terms such as gaming, video calling etc. If it's not visual it doesn't count.

    That said, there are a few disappointments for me here. I think the specs are okay, for a 9700 type device running OS 5. Now with webKit and animated transitions it seems bogged down a little. Also the touch behavior seems odd, swipes are sometimes initially interpreted as taps, leading to pauses. I don't understand RIM's thinking here but maybe these issues can be optimized later.

    It's a small battery powering a large screen, animations and webKit, expect iPhone/Android battery life. Probably a trade off for a compact device with a slide out keyboard and large screen.

    Another worrying issue is the push for HTML5 apps. The Palm Pre did this and it was a failure in terms of responsiveness. It's very hard to optimize and control the performance of this type of apps unless you throw in serious hardware, and even then.

    So in balance, I have mixed feelings about what RIM did here. I'd like to have that functionality on my 9700 but performance is something to watch closely.
    Last edited by synthmole; 08-03-10 at 07:14 PM.
    08-03-10 07:10 PM
  14. iMiiTH's Avatar
    My browser hangs when it's loading a web page, big whoop.

    Freaking every phone hangs, every device hangs when there's a load on it.
    08-03-10 07:41 PM
  15. Broly's Avatar
    My browser hangs when it's loading a web page, big whoop.

    Freaking every phone hangs, every device hangs when there's a load on it.
    Good luck enjoying a phone that has a processor architecture that is VASTLY inferior in comparison to the android/iphone processor architecture, which I would say is a big deal.

    You think this doesn't affect how fast your software runs? Look at the instructions per clock cycle for the A8/A9 architectures by ARM and compare it to this garbage ARM7 architecture these blackberries are using.

    Browser hanging can be a bit more of A CPU BOTTLENECK than you think. You just don't know it.
    08-03-10 07:50 PM
  16. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    RIM deserves all the crap that they are getting right now.

    They made this freaking choice to use the Bold 1 processor in the 9800. They refuse to make their handsets actually worth the price of admission.

    I honestly believed their cheap behinds would eventually cough up and go Cortex A8 this year with their newer phones, but to no avail.

    Get real guys, RIM isn't going to change the CPU of their phone for a long time, and this phone is evidence of it.

    It fricken irritates me that a company thinks their customers are stupid enough to pay a subsidized price equivalent to their competitor when the performacne of their competitors hardware is easily 2 times better.

    That's the truth.

    Go cortex A8/A9 soon rim, or lose most of your customers forever. You bloody jerks.

    OK lets be fair, I am sure no one has actually done deep research yet into the processors that RIM uses vs HTC/Moto/Apple

    as far as I can find, and I implore anyone who has more time then me to find me more details, RIM is currently using the fastest available processor from Marvell, RIM does not use Qualcomm, and to use Qualcomm I would venture to bet it would require a core rewrite as Qualcomm probably uses different instruction sets than Marvell,

    It goes back to the AMD Athlon vs the Intel Pentium 4, the Pentium blasted past the Athlon in clock speed, but real world results showed the Athlon with 1.3Ghz beating 1.6Ghz Pentium 4's by large margins.
    And since we are talking Both Motorola and Apple here, in the 90's Apple used Motorola processors, which did video editing tasks far better than the x86 of Intel, but as time went on the x86 got faster and faster, and the Motorola processor power Apple computers fell behind, Apple had to come out and use Intel processors.

    IS RIM at that stage right now? that is the question? did Torch development and OS6 development start on the Marvell Architecture? and was it too difficult to port to Qualcomm?
    Is there a major difference between Marvell and Qualcomm systems?

    If someone can find me numbers I'll gladly dig through, but I can't find them myself,

    I am very hopeful that the LTE based RIM phones will be using Qualcomm or a NEW Marvell seeing as the Processor seems to link with the radio chipset, and I believe are purchased from the same vendors..


    as for your Truths, unfortunately we can't run FLOPS tests on both processors to find if the difference is linear based on Mhz.. or if we are running into a smartphone megahertz myth scenario
    08-03-10 07:54 PM
  17. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    Well you have two blogs that have general coverage of all smartphones giving a review, and then you have a known BlackBerry fanboy (****, he does run this site lol) giving a review. The OS might have intrigued him enough to not even care to notice the lag. But so far sites are saying there is lag so I will believe them until I try it at the local AT&T store myself.
    I think I might be a little ill!!

    I actually want to kind of agree with avt123

    Kevin comes from an OS5 background, so his opinions of OS6 will be much better as he is coming from a far inferior OS,
    the other 2 reviewers are coming from iPhone/Android devices, they are used to Rich media experiences, on large touch screens, with minimal lag, I am sure under scrutiny of a non fan faults would be found in any of the platforms that would be over looked by a fan which is what this case is.

    I REALLY REALLY want to see Doc2Go scrolling through a spreadsheet on this BB, that will truly be a test for me, as the Apple offering can not compare to the BB offering when dealing with speadsheets and scrolling, but we are talking keyboard vs touch, how bad did RIM mess that up if at all?
    08-03-10 07:58 PM
  18. tack's Avatar
    I really like the software that I see. I think BB6 is looking up to par with every other platform, except in the App department.

    I was underwhelmed by the hardware however. The form factor looks great. The processor is too slow, whether Mhz matters or not. From a marketing perspective, using a 624Mhz processor makes everyone think it is slow. AMD's strategy of not focusing on Mhz/Ghz failed, and so would RIM's if they tried to justify. I am not saying it is not right, but people won't buy it.

    Additionally, the screen is not up to par to today's touch screens and what people expect. It is a big disappointment.

    I hope they come out with a real competitive touch screen phone for CDMA networks. The Storm2.5 refresh is not going to cut it. Same slow processor, same low res screen, same form factor. I also think they need a touch screen without SurePress so it can be thin, thin, thin. Those of us with SurePress may like it, but that gimmick never sold in the market. I just want my phone thinner and lighter now.
    08-03-10 08:17 PM
  19. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    I really like the software that I see. I think BB6 is looking up to par with every other platform, except in the App department.

    I was underwhelmed by the hardware however. The form factor looks great. The processor is too slow, whether Mhz matters or not. From a marketing perspective, using a 624Mhz processor makes everyone think it is slow. AMD's strategy of not focusing on Mhz/Ghz failed, and so would RIM's if they tried to justify. I am not saying it is not right, but people won't buy it.

    Additionally, the screen is not up to par to today's touch screens and what people expect. It is a big disappointment.

    I hope they come out with a real competitive touch screen phone for CDMA networks. The Storm2.5 refresh is not going to cut it. Same slow processor, same low res screen, same form factor. I also think they need a touch screen without SurePress so it can be thin, thin, thin. Those of us with SurePress may like it, but that gimmick never sold in the market. I just want my phone thinner and lighter now.

    I don't disagree that the mhz matter to the public, which is why RIM Can't let it go quietly if they are banking on a different processor

    and As I also said I really hope that the LTE framework is going to play the marketing game as much as the performance game, if that is going Qualcomm, or if Marvell has dropped their 3G development and is pushing hard with an LTE to compete with Qualcomm, regardless RIM's LTE phones MUST compete within a close proximity for consumer spec checkers.
    08-03-10 08:40 PM
  20. Broly's Avatar
    Marvell's architectures are licensed from ARM.

    Think of ARM as selling blueprints for processors and then companies like Marvell and Samsung purchasing them and changing bits.

    Yes, I understand the Athlon/pentium 4 argument. What I am saying is the ARM Cortex A8/A9 architectures are vastly superior to the ARM7 architecture that the Marvell processor in the blackberry uses.

    If the operating system can run on an ARM 7 architecture, it will run on a cortex A8/A9 architecture. The reason for this is that all processor instructions for the ARM7 are compatible with the A8/A9. That is, BB OS6/OS5 would run without a hiccup on the A8/A9 architecture. It MAY require some tweaks but it would be nothing major.

    Upgrading the processor architecture from ARM7 to A8/A9 isn't as drastic as changing from RISC to CISC, which would be like PPC CPUs -> x86 CPUs.
    08-03-10 10:45 PM
  21. PilotPhil81's Avatar
    1234567891
    Last edited by philbert81; 08-04-10 at 02:08 AM.
    08-03-10 10:50 PM
  22. avt123's Avatar
    Yeah because Android devices don't do that regardless... Upgrading specs clearly has not prevented ANYONE from constant refreshes.
    Except for the fact that Android is used by several manufacturers. RIM falls short on specs all the time with EVERY device.
    08-03-10 10:57 PM
  23. avt123's Avatar
    I actually want to kind of agree with avt123

    I hope this didn't just initiate Armageddon lol.
    08-03-10 11:02 PM
  24. Roo Zilla's Avatar
    OK lets be fair, I am sure no one has actually done deep research yet into the processors that RIM uses vs HTC/Moto/Apple

    as far as I can find, and I implore anyone who has more time then me to find me more details, RIM is currently using the fastest available processor from Marvell, RIM does not use Qualcomm, and to use Qualcomm I would venture to bet it would require a core rewrite as Qualcomm probably uses different instruction sets than Marvell,
    All smartphones use some type of ARM chip, it doesn't matter who makes them, the basic architecture is the same, meaning that code is easily adaptable. I would go as far as to say virtually all mobile devices use an ARM processor with few exceptions. The reason is low power consumption. There are however, a lot of different versions of ARM chips. Most recent smartphones use a version of the Cortex Family using A8 cores. There is no Mhz battle, and if there were, RIM would be on the losing side because they still use an xScale core, which is about 2 generations back with no superscalar capabilities. It's basically the same thing that used to be in Palm Treos and Palm TXs, but clocked a bit higher with a few tweaks. Go back one more generation and you get the CPU in Nintendo DS. That's where the BB CPU stands, closer in relation to a Nintento DS than a Droid. It's also a generation behind the CPUs in the original iPhone, iPhone 3G, and Kindle. It is however, better on the power front than the Cortex or ARM 11 cores.

    I agree with Broly, RIM really should pony up a couple extra bucks and update their CPUs, I mean really, the difference in price is probably like $5. If they like 624Mhz for some reason, they can underclock a Cortex and get better performance.

    On a side note, the i4 uses a custom ARM processor based on the Cortex core with a built in GPU, which they call the A4, a naming convention I don't really understand.
    Last edited by Roo Zilla; 08-04-10 at 12:57 AM.
    08-04-10 12:37 AM
  25. WillieLee's Avatar
    I think it's great the the OP said BGR doesn't bash RIM. BGR posts a rant about RIM and how they suck every couple months.

    From making up the amount of money they paid U2 to promote their tour(he claimed $10 million based on his estimate of the number of concert goers-scientific!) To then claiming there was no RIM booths at the events that they spent $10 million on(see how quick it became a fact?) despite numerous reader comments that described all the RIM promotion and special offers they found at U2 concerts.

    Then there was his claim that the original Storm had a 50% return rate(lie). No one apparently noticed when that claim was recycled by others for the Tour. Odd that RIM had massive returns of a product yet never informed their shareholders. It's almost like it never happened!

    Just a month ago he went on another rant about how RIM was doomed because of that picture of the navigation beta test. Even though the beta program could have been only collecting data with no emphasis on visual.

    BGR has done nothing but bash RIM on a steady schedule. He's also the guy that recently stated that RIM's marketshare will be gone in two quarters. So really, how has the OP never noticed the RIM bashing that goes on at BGR?
    Last edited by WillieLee; 08-04-10 at 01:28 AM.
    08-04-10 01:25 AM
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