[anon(9353145)]

There isn't one. Not with android, not with bb10, not with IoS.
If it is to re-invent itself, it would have to be a new type of product.
Few companies in the history of high tech have re-invented themselves with revolutionary second products. Apart from Apple, I can't think of one.
Chen is not the person that will come up with a revolutionary new product. Neither in hardware, nor in software.
He is not a Jobs, nor a Zuckerberg, nor a Brin, nor a Lazaridis, nor a Grove, nor a Gates. He is not a creative person.

Good points. I think the main thing needed when Chen came on board was to stop the hemorrhaging of money, which he did. But I do agree he's not very adept with the hardware end (pricing, specs) or particularly creative.

Posted via CB10

[Ethereo]

He needs the revenue that the Priv brings in (or was expected to bring in ). The transition to Software isn't quite there yet. Which is also why he didn't simply kill Hardware 3 years ago.

I'm not sure that the failure of the Priv was predictable. It offered the much-demanded Apps via the Google Play Store at long last and seems to have attracted ex-BB10 people.

Admittedly BB loaded the dice against themselves - high price, unfinished phone - but it was a dice throw that probably seemed worth a try. After all, BB had very little to lose by this time. The alternative was simply to close down Hardware ... and a last throw of the dice probably seemed worth the try.

Now he is going to throw the dice two more times, I am an Android user (my father has a Q10 and I love BB10), sincerely two more flops incoming from Chen, He needed to restablish the BB Brand and with his continous failures in the Hw division he is making not favor to anyone in that company, if you want an Android phone I can list you at least ten brands that can give you a better phone for your money.

[JeepBB]

Now he is going to throw the dice two more times, I am an Android user (my father has a Q10 and I love BB10), sincerely two more flops incoming from Chen, He needed to restablish the BB Brand and with his continous failures in the Hw division he is making not favor to anyone in that company, if you want an Android phone I can list you at least ten brands that can give you a better phone for your money.

As I've said in other threads, I'll believe in these two new phones when they are available to buy in a shop. Not a day before.

That doesn't negate what I said before. The Priv was worth the gamble, as it might have worked. However, it didn't work (and nether will the mythical pair of phones that Chen mentioned).

The Priv was that last throw. BB seems to have made a habit of numerous Hail Mary passes that have failed to connect, but surely nobody can believe that another two BB Android phones will succeed where the Priv failed?

FYI, I'm not a fan of Android. I've used some that I've been issued through work, but you'd need to pay me to use one as my personal device.

[Bbnivende]

As I've said in other threads, I'll believe in these two new phones when they are available to buy in a shop. Not a day before.

That doesn't negate what I said before. The Priv was worth the gamble, as it might have worked. However, it didn't work (and nether will the mythical pair of phones that Chen mentioned).

The Priv was that last throw. BB seems to have made a habit of numerous Hail Mary passes that have failed to connect, but surely nobody can believe that another two BB Android phones will succeed where the Priv failed?

FYI, I'm not a fan of Android. I've used some that I've been issued through work, but you'd need to pay me to use one as my personal device.

So you have a bias.

[wermar]

It is also difficult to get people to purchase the Priv,or speculated 2 new devices, when Mr Chen keeps saying that they may be getting out of the hardware business. Will hang on to my Z10, and z30s as long as they work. Ok with the apps available, do not play games, or watch movies on a phone when 55" TV is available.

Posted via CB10

[Jack Chin]

BB10 as a late-comer was never going to succeed, but the bungling of the company's 'sale' killed hardware. I think Chen's dithering is more about protecting his own reputation for when the plug is pulled rather than being managerial incompetence. Even at the abysmal level of hardware sales, there are still units sold every day, and there will be a lot of pissed-off recent purchasers when the day comes. Some will have bought on the day before, if not the morning of, the announcement.

Posted via CB10

[acovey]

Z3/Leap was also in the works already.... And I kinda taught that the Classic was too. So not sure Chen did anything to make his "mark" on BB10 hardware.

For that matter it seemed like there were leaks (drawings) of a Slider "concept" also before Chen came along. But I'm sure that was a very early design, and natural evolution of the BlackBerry Torch.

A Priv is NOT like a Torch. A Torch used a Blackberry OS, the Priv is just another Android.

[Troy Tiscareno]

Several people have said that "Chen didn't learn about pricing", but I suspect that it was less about "learning" and more about BB not being able to make a profit on smartphones any other way than to price them high at launch. Pricing the Priv at $600 US might have sold more phones initially, but I suspect that would have just caused interested people to buy sooner, and a big fall-off in demand after the first quarter of release. Chen's way almost certainly makes BB more money in the long run.

I don't believe there are millions of people who would have potentially bought a Priv but passed on it because of the price - and if there are, a lot of them would be buying the Priv now that it's had a big price cut. Clearly, it's not that many.

Folks need to recognize that BB simply isn't in the position to be price-competitive - the extra development work they have to do on top of a "stock" Android phone adds a sizable cost per phone (due to the low sales volumes), and they sell so few phones that they can't get very good pricing - or high priority - on parts, so everything costs BB more. Folks who want a BB have to accept that they're going to have to pay more for one - or BB won't be able to remain as a hardware maker at all.

[Bbnivende]

A Priv is NOT like a Torch. A Torch used a Blackberry OS, the Priv is just another Android.

Mr. Dunt x3 might be thinking of the BlackBerry Milan. It was reputed to be a high end BB7 Torch replacement.

[Bbnivende]

Several people have said that "Chen didn't learn about pricing", but I suspect that it was less about "learning" and more about BB not being able to make a profit on smartphones any other way than to price them high at launch. Pricing the Priv at $600 US might have sold more phones initially, but I suspect that would have just caused interested people to buy sooner, and a big fall-off in demand after the first quarter of release. Chen's way almost certainly makes BB more money in the long run.

I don't believe there are millions of people who would have potentially bought a Priv but passed on it because of the price - and if there are, a lot of them would be buying the Priv now that it's had a big price cut. Clearly, it's not that many.

Folks need to recognize that BB simply isn't in the position to be price-competitive - the extra development work they have to do on top of a "stock" Android phone adds a sizable cost per phone (due to the low sales volumes), and they sell so few phones that they can't get very good pricing - or high priority - on parts, so everything costs BB more. Folks who want a BB have to accept that they're going to have to pay more for one - or BB won't be able to remain as a hardware maker at all.

Some of those costs are developmental in that they can apply their knowledge to future models. They can apply their Android knowledge and expertise to their software business as well.

[sorinv]

Folks need to recognize that BB simply isn't in the position to be price-competitive - the extra development work they have to do on top of a "stock" Android phone adds a sizable cost per phone (due to the low sales volumes), and they sell so few phones that they can't get very good pricing - or high priority - on parts, so everything costs BB more. Folks who want a BB have to accept that they're going to have to pay more for one - or BB won't be able to remain as a hardware maker at all.

Yes. That is precisely why it makes no sense for BlackBerry to release android phones. That worked in bb10 because there was no competition.

[chrisleka]

I read your post and just talked to my friend John Chen. Now, he's convinced and he'll cancel all future Android projects. 5 new BB10 phones will be released this year. Thanks for your refreshing ideas.

Lmaoooo thanks

Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android

[JeepBB]

So you have a bias.

Everyone has a bias.

My personally not liking Android has little to do with the failure of the Priv to sell. However, as I've said, the Priv was a worthy gamble that might have worked. People here were saying they wanted Apps... so BB gave them a phone with Apps, in the only way that was possible, by adopting Android.

The Priv has failed; for many reasons. Price is certainly one of those reasons, the unfinished condition of the Priv and it's BBEx Apps is another.

There is no good reason to believe that two more Android handsets will be a success, certainly not enough of a success to make Hardware profitable. As has been said, to repeat the same thing and expect a different outcome is the definition of insanity.

BB cannot compete on price, features, marketing, etc, etc with their Android handsets against everyone else's Android handsets. Chen knows this. Which is why (IMO) he has kicked these "new phones" into the long grass - February 2017 is it now? - and why I believe they will never see the light of day. In the meantime, Chen will continue to make positive statements and hope to get as much revenue from devices while he still can.

And, when February 2017 rolls around, and the phones don't come. Chen will shrug, and say, "We tried, we really tried to save hardware, but it wasn't to be...". Wait and see...

[Bbnivende]

Yes you could be correct.

Posted via CB10

[JeepBB]

BB10 as a late-comer was never going to succeed, but the bungling of the company's 'sale' killed hardware. I think Chen's dithering is more about protecting his own reputation for when the plug is pulled rather than being managerial incompetence. Even at the abysmal level of hardware sales, there are still units sold every day, and there will be a lot of pissed-off recent purchasers when the day comes. Some will have bought on the day before, if not the morning of, the announcement.

Posted via CB10

I agree with everything you've said.

I'll just add my uber-cynical point that there will be nothing those pissed-off recent buyers will be able to do about it except rage impotently.

They won't for example be able to demonstrate their scorn for BB by *not* buying another BB phone ever again ... because BB won't make another phone ever again... and they already banked your money.

This will all unfold late next Spring by my reckoning. Mark it on your calendars.

[pstrusi]

I agree with you JeepBB; as I've told often, the only quick hopeful way to survive and getting better is :

- Going Android ---> direct access to most popular apps
- Good or High specs ---> the android market hardware competition is fierce, so at least you got to have a decent hardware
- Better built quality ---> Here BB might have an advantage, given the lack of durability of most handsets
- New BB features ---> Big area where BB could make the plus that others can not.
- Competitive price ---> According to its level of specs ranking
- Avoid publicly the message " we might have to close the hardware division", this cast an annoying feeling to possible new customers
- If good product is available, please market it aggressively

Is BB really willing to try the change? I really hope so

[sorinv]

http://rethink-wireless.com/2016/05/...7e68-164255889

This article sums it well about the smartphone and IoT businesses.
There is no creativity, just desperate attempts at survival as the smartphone piggy bank is drying up.

[JP Barnard]

Nope. Happy with BB Maps.

[bitek]

Several people have said that "Chen didn't learn about pricing", but I suspect that it was less about "learning" and more about BB not being able to make a profit on smartphones any other way than to price them high at launch. Pricing the Priv at $600 US might have sold more phones initially, but I suspect that would have just caused interested people to buy sooner, and a big fall-off in demand after the first quarter of release. Chen's way almost certainly makes BB more money in the long run.

I don't believe there are millions of people who would have potentially bought a Priv but passed on it because of the price - and if there are, a lot of them would be buying the Priv now that it's had a big price cut. Clearly, it's not that many.

Folks need to recognize that BB simply isn't in the position to be price-competitive - the extra development work they have to do on top of a "stock" Android phone adds a sizable cost per phone (due to the low sales volumes), and they sell so few phones that they can't get very good pricing - or high priority - on parts, so everything costs BB more. Folks who want a BB have to accept that they're going to have to pay more for one - or BB won't be able to remain as a hardware maker at all.

Well said. I am happy to pay extra for priv. I am happy with the purchase and this is what matters to me.

[OnTheFence001]

As I've said in other threads, I'll believe in these two new phones when they are available to buy in a shop. Not a day before.


* * *
FYI, I'm not a fan of Android. I've used some that I've been issued through work, but you'd need to pay me to use one as my personal device.

They may sell them direct....

I know we've traded comments a couple of places, so I was pleased to see the latter, at least relative to google-android, in light of other "armchair CEO" type discussions. I agree- google pay users through free software, but it also gets something in return. I think you also provided the info which prompted me to get my classic (BB unlocked on T-Mo, hotspot + wifi calling).

Side note: interesting item in the news feed today, remix os (built by ex-googlers) using a desktop (roku-like box) had to remove their googleplay app, but they also sell a tablet which they did not have to remove googleplay access. it is an android based os, but clearly a "fork" as google would define it. some of the tides on the playstore may turn, esp with the european anti-trust case going on.

[MmmHmm]

Yes. That is precisely why it makes no sense for BlackBerry to release android phones. That worked in bb10 because there was no competition.

BB10 phones were in competition with all the Android phones too. BB10 never existed in a vacuum. I don't understand the concept that BB is suddenly having to compete with Android manufacturers because it introduced its own android phone. It's all the smartphone market. That competition has been there quite awhile now.

In my opinion, there is still room to introduce distinguishing features in Android other than lower price.

[Jack Chin]

Side note: interesting item in the news feed today, remix os (built by ex-googlers) using a desktop (roku-like box) had to remove their googleplay app, but they also sell a tablet which they did not have to remove googleplay access. it is an android based os, but clearly a "fork" as google would define it. some of the tides on the playstore may turn, esp with the european anti-trust case going on.

As much as I loathe that sort of thing, it could be an out-of-left-field game-changer for BB10. Unfortunately, the development team appears to have been gutted, and you can't start, stop and re-start that project on a whim.

And there would still be the question of whether BlackBerry could even recognize the strategic opportunity, much less execute. Methinks not.

Posted via CB10

[sorinv]

BB10 phones were in competition with all the Android phones too. BB10 never existed in a vacuum. I don't understand the concept that BB is suddenly having to compete with Android manufacturers because it introduced its own android phone. It's all the smartphone market. That competition has been there quite awhile now.

In my opinion, there is still room to introduce distinguishing features in Android other than lower price.

Well, think about the current users of BlackBerry devices. About 500k are on the android Priv. The rest of the 20M or so are on bb10 or BBOS devices, despite the fact the the latter two have had no flagship released since September 2014.
I for one, bought my second Passport last month.
I don't think I have anywhere to choose from since I will delay buying either an IoS or an android phone for as long as I possibly can.
There seem to be many like me, or else Priv would have sold in millions during the past 6 months.
So, from that point of view, bb10 devices have little or no competition and can be sold at a higher price.
That's definitely not the case for android Priv.

[markmall]

Well, think about the current users of BlackBerry devices. About 500k are on the android Priv. The rest of the 20M or so are on bb10 or BBOS devices, despite the fact the the latter two have had no flagship released since September 2014.
I for one, bought my second Passport last month.
I don't think I have anywhere to choose from since I will delay buying either an IoS or an android phone for as long as I possibly can.
There seem to be many like me, or else Priv would have sold in millions during the past 6 months.
So, from that point of view, bb10 devices have little or no competition and can be sold at a higher price.
That's definitely not the case for android Priv.

Well put. The bottom line is that as much as BB is struggling to find a phone that will sell over 1 million, it is sitting right on top of its best opportunity to sell a substantial number of phones. Maybe it's a one off, final BB10 device or maybe it keeps BB10 going. Either way, they should grab this opportunity.

I also bought my second Passport a week ago.

[Bbnivende]

Well put. The bottom line is that as much as BB is struggling to find a phone that will sell over 1 million, it is sitting right on top of its best opportunity to sell a substantial number of phones. Maybe it's a one off, final BB10 device or maybe it keeps BB10 going. Either way, they should grab this opportunity.

I also bought my second Passport a week ago.

I do not think that BB10 would sell more devices than the Android equivalent but regardless they can not make a profit with BB10. You can have a niche device but not a niche platform.

Posted via CB10