[kvndoom]

Not if you want sell it more than once. People won't buy it again unless it works for them. Marketing isn't a miracle worker.

Egg-zactly! I'm quite sure hardly anybody who got burned by the Z10 would touch ANYTHING BlackBerry with a 10 foot pole ever again.

I rewatched the 2013 commercial again, and honestly I liked it when viewing it objectively. It's just that it was pretty false advertising considering that for the consumer market, it would have taken 10 minutes or more to show everything the phone couldn't do.

BlackBerry Classic non-camera, Cricket Wireless (for now)

[KAM1138]

Egg-zactly! I'm quite sure hardly anybody who got burned by the Z10 would touch ANYTHING BlackBerry with a 10 foot pole ever again.

I rewatched the 2013 commercial again, and honestly I liked it when viewing it objectively. It's just that it was pretty false advertising considering that for the consumer market, it would have taken 10 minutes or more to show everything the phone couldn't do.

BlackBerry Classic non-camera, Cricket Wireless (for now)

I don't know what you're referring to. I bought a Z10 as soon as it became available, and enjoyed using it for about 2.5 years. Even though I am currently enjoying a Passport SE, I kind of want to trade back to the Z10 sometimes.

KAM

[KAM1138]

Thor was quoted at the time of the Z10/BB10 launch: "This has to work", is what he said.

It didn't.

Nine months later, Thor & the Board put BB up for sale.

Somewhere between the Z10 launch, and the "For Sale" signs going up, BB10's end became inevitable.

As has been said many, many, many times here on CB... A thriving App "ecosystem" is a must to succeed in smartphones, and BB10 doesn't have an ecosystem, nevermind a thriving one!

All the marketing in the world, and infinite amounts of money to spend, aren't going to change the basic truth: 99% of consumers don't want what BB10 is offering.

Microsoft is realising the same harsh truth, and WinPhone may go the same way as BB10. To misquote Clinton's "It's the economy, stupid!" to keep his focus on the only thing that mattered to voters...; "It's the ecosystem, stupid!" is the only thing that matters in the smartphone world.

Which is driving Chen's gamble on the Android Priv. Android does have a vast App ecosystem, so the Priv may actually succeed in a way that BB10 never, ever, could.

You are right--Everyone THINKS that Apps (in the form of Android/iOS) are a must, which is what leads them to tolerate (through ignorance or not) inferior Operating systems. That's the mentality that has been ESTABLISHED, not one that is "natural" or a law of nature. It's largely the result of someone else's successful marketing effort.

Funny however, that I (and others) seem to get along very well without tons of apps (most of which are trash BTW). I have an iOS and Android device, (and Windows phone) and neither of them have any apps that mean more to me (just speaking for me) than the actual functionality of my BB10 devices.

Nevertheless, what you say is effectively (if not inherently) true. So, Blackberry has chosen to follow the leader on this, rather than try to figure out what the next "must" thing might be, or to CREATE the next "must" thing.

At best the Priv can succeed as another of many Android Phones--that's it, because there is nothing about it that's trying to innovate. I'll tell you this. They had better hope sales have been insanely good, because they aren't likely to last in the Android world. The next "hot" device will be out before you know it, and whatever "buzz" the Priv had will be quickly forgotten.

KAM

[RyanGermann]

Marketing isn't magic, RyanGermann. You can't spin every disadvantage into an advantage (and here you're not even trying to). Including this information would cause sales to suffer even more than currently. It would convince consumers previously set on Blackberry to avoid it like the plague. Now that's horrible marketing!

...and a marketing strategy isn't oversimplified "never say anything that tilts negative about your product." Negative is in the eye of the beholder. Saying that there aren't tons of apps and a BB10 device is a great communications device and companion for other app-rich devices that aren't as good in the communications department is completely reasonable.

I think like a lot of people who aren't marketing professionals, you might only be able to imagine a communication that's all fail. Or, you're imagining that the audience who would be critical of that message would EVER have been legitimate prospects. The point is, the properly nuanced message delivered to the RIGHT audience DOES work, even if for the WRONG audience it does not. Trying to sell college kids who need Snapchat and Instagram a BB10 device would not work, and yes, they'd look at an ad for a BB10 device that acknowledges that, put simply, the device isn't for them, with ridicule.

The point is that you sell to your customer, not to your non-customer, and you don't worry about if your non-customer doesn't like the message. Trying to sell BB10 in the "merits of all the apps" is absolutely stupid, and, as others have said, ALLOWING the device to be marketed to people who WANT and NEED apps, only to have them intrigued and buy a BB10 device only to be disappointed in it (because in essence THEY SHOULD NOT BUY A BB10 DEVICE) is the kind of mistake BlackBerry kept making OVER and OVER. Until the Priv where they had a mass market device running a mass market OS so they're mass-market-ing it.

But mass-marketing an Android device successfully doesn't mean you can't niche-market a niche-market device successfully... but they would logically need different approaches and different messages.

[Emaderton3]

If it was all marketing, then why are businesses that switched from BlackBerry OS to 10 now dropping their BlackBerry phones? Could it possibly be that they need more than great messaging and communication such as apps or compatability with adopted ecosystems that aren't available with BlackBerry 10? Everyone needs to stop equating apps with just games. There are professional apps out there that are convenient to use in many types of jobs/employment.

I have worked at medical centers for over a decade, and BlackBerry phones were widely used by doctors when I first started. But as time went by, they needed them to do more than just communicate. None of the top medical apps or current patient software management systems are available for BlackBerry 10. So, now they carry around iPhones and iPads to get their work done and still remain productive. I'm sure there are other professions where apps are quite useful. Even for me, I am going to have to organize my schedule for a scientific conference I am going to next week by going through the 200 page program because the convenient scheduling app isn't available for BlackBerry.

Posted via CB10

[TgeekB]

You are right--Everyone THINKS that Apps (in the form of Android/iOS) are a must, which is what leads them to tolerate (through ignorance or not) inferior Operating systems. That's the mentality that has been ESTABLISHED, not one that is "natural" or a law of nature. It's largely the result of someone else's successful marketing effort.

Funny however, that I (and others) seem to get along very well without tons of apps (most of which are trash BTW). I have an iOS and Android device, (and Windows phone) and neither of them have any apps that mean more to me (just speaking for me) than the actual functionality of my BB10 devices.

Nevertheless, what you say is effectively (if not inherently) true. So, Blackberry has chosen to follow the leader on this, rather than try to figure out what the next "must" thing might be, or to CREATE the next "must" thing.

At best the Priv can succeed as another of many Android Phones--that's it, because there is nothing about it that's trying to innovate. I'll tell you this. They had better hope sales have been insanely good, because they aren't likely to last in the Android world. The next "hot" device will be out before you know it, and whatever "buzz" the Priv had will be quickly forgotten.

KAM

Or you think everyone thinks they need apps. Many apps perform a specific function necessary to that individual or business. That doesn't mean there couldn't be another way, but it also doesn't mean they're useless.
Good for you that you don't need apps, but please don't assume others don't use them in very productive ways.

[JeepBB]

You are right--Everyone THINKS that Apps (in the form of Android/iOS) are a must, which is what leads them to tolerate (through ignorance or not) inferior Operating systems. That's the mentality that has been ESTABLISHED, not one that is "natural" or a law of nature. It's largely the result of someone else's successful marketing effort.

Funny however, that I (and others) seem to get along very well without tons of apps (most of which are trash BTW). I have an iOS and Android device, (and Windows phone) and neither of them have any apps that mean more to me (just speaking for me) than the actual functionality of my BB10 devices.

Yes, I read this a lot on the CB forums. BB10 is an inherently superior OS that does more out of the box than others. However, repetition of that mantra doesn't necessarily make it true. I see very little difference in the basic functionality offered by any smartphone and, like you I've tried most of them. Even if I were to accept that BB10 could stand-up a claim of "out of the box" superiority - it is a hollow victory in any case as devices using those "inferior" OS's can get an App, probably 100's of Apps, from their respective stores and within minutes restore parity.

Any OS preference is in the eye of the beholder. Your preference for BB10 makes you one of the 0.3%. Congratulations on being an elite.

Nevertheless, what you say is effectively (if not inherently) true. So, Blackberry has chosen to follow the leader on this, rather than try to figure out what the next "must" thing might be, or to CREATE the next "must" thing.

Everyone is trying to figure out the next big thing. I don't know what that could be, but I'm confident that developing it will require money, time, and an innovative company culture. BB has very little money (in the scale of these things), is running out of time, and has downsized its engineering and design side to an absolute minimum. I suspect morale within BB is low, I know mine would be at rock-bottom, and demoralised staff and cash-limited corporations are not known for innovation.

At best the Priv can succeed as another of many Android Phones--that's it, because there is nothing about it that's trying to innovate. I'll tell you this. They had better hope sales have been insanely good, because they aren't likely to last in the Android world. The next "hot" device will be out before you know it, and whatever "buzz" the Priv had will be quickly forgotten.

Now this, I entirely agree with. I'm on record as stating that BB should release an Android phone that pushes their PKB and security/privacy ethos. I'm humbled that Chen seems to agree with me!

BB10 is a bust for BB, and an Android phone is probably their last card to play. Which, to return to the point of this thread, is why BB are again advertising.

But, like you, I doubt the Priv will stand out in a sea of Android phones. Even if it sells big initially, I doubt its moment in the spotlight will last beyond the point when the next shiny Android phone is released by one of the big players. I'll also mention that BB seem to have repeated the same story in releasing generally well-received hardware, populated by unfinished software. I'm sure the BB-faithful will be willing to overlook and forgive the buggy software, and buy the Priv regardless, but I doubt the other 99.7% of phone-buying consumers will be so forgiving, or so careless with their hard-earned money.

[KAM1138]

Or you think everyone thinks they need apps. Many apps perform a specific function necessary to that individual or business. That doesn't mean there couldn't be another way, but it also doesn't mean they're useless.
Good for you that you don't need apps, but please don't assume others don't use them in very productive ways.

I am not assuming anything, nor do I really care, what you or any other individual uses apps for productive or not. That said, I think you'll find that the most popular apps tend to be anything but "productive." but whatever--you like them, good for you. Go enjoy your Android or iOS experience.

KAM

[TgeekB]

I am not assuming anything, nor do I really care, what you or any other individual uses apps for productive or not. That said, I think you'll find that the most popular apps tend to be anything but "productive." but whatever--you like them, good for you. Go enjoy your Android or iOS experience.

KAM

We are. Thanks.

[JeepBB]

Does anyone else remember how the CB forums went C-R-A-Z-Y-!!! when that well-known productivity App, Angry Birds, made it to BB devices?

Tools Not Toys... never gets old.

[KAM1138]

Yes, I read this a lot on the CB forums. BB10 is an inherently superior OS that does more out of the box than others. However, repetition of that mantra doesn't necessarily make it true. I see very little difference in the basic functionality offered by any smartphone and, like you I've tried most of them. Even if I were to accept that BB10 could stand-up a claim of "out of the box" superiority - it is a hollow victory in any case as devices using those "inferior" OS's can get an App, probably 100's of Apps, from their respective stores and within minutes restore parity.

Any OS preference is in the eye of the beholder. Your preference for BB10 makes you one of the 0.3%. Congratulations on being an elite.



Everyone is trying to figure out the next big thing. I don't know what that could be, but I'm confident that developing it will require money, time, and an innovative company culture. BB has very little money (in the scale of these things), is running out of time, and has downsized its engineering and design side to an absolute minimum. I suspect morale within BB is low, I know mine would be at rock-bottom, and demoralised staff and cash-limited corporations are not known for innovation.



Now this, I entirely agree with. I'm on record as stating that BB should release an Android phone that pushes their PKB and security/privacy ethos. I'm humbled that Chen seems to agree with me!

BB10 is a bust for BB, and an Android phone is probably their last card to play. Which, to return to the point of this thread, is why BB are again advertising.

But, like you, I doubt the Priv will stand out in a sea of Android phones. Even if it sells big initially, I doubt its moment in the spotlight will last beyond the point when the next shiny Android phone is released by one of the big players. I'll also mention that BB seem to have repeated the same story in releasing generally well-received hardware, populated by unfinished software. I'm sure the BB-faithful will be willing to overlook and forgive the buggy software, and buy the Priv regardless, but I doubt the other 99.7% of phone-buying consumers will be so forgiving, or so careless with their hard-earned money.

Well, it is only my opinion but I think that BB10 is far superior to Android and of course that's my preference.

My overall point in posting here semi-recently is that BB10 isn't the problem, and never was. It is BlackBerry the company that is the "turd" which defies polishing.

Sorry, motivation to continue talking about this is fading, but thanks for the comments.

KAM

[RyanGermann]

A thriving App "ecosystem" is a must to succeed in smartphones, and BB10 doesn't have an ecosystem, nevermind a thriving one!

That's an oversimplification, but you know, these debates are kind-of pointless, so what does it matter.

My overall point in posting here semi-recently is that BB10 isn't the problem, and never was. It is BlackBerry the company that is the "turd" which defies polishing.

Yep, that's what I've come to realize, too: and it is this way because of managements attitude. At this point, I think Prem Watsa is the worst thing to ever happen to BlackBerry. Ever. I believe it is he who is directing things for the most part. I would get some degree of satisfaction watching his investment in BlackBerry trend toward zero value.

[crackberry_geek]

I see very little difference in the basic functionality offered by any smartphone and, like you I've tried most of them.

Whenever I see this kind of naive statement I realize that what follows is not well informed... so I just skip over it.

Posted via CB10

[Emaderton3]

Whenever I see this kind of naive statement I realize that what follows is not well informed... so I just skip over it.

Posted via CB10

Why? They all do the same basic things, i.e., functions--email, text, Internet, camera, apps, etc. They are just implemented in different ways. Sure, you have some differences in softtware or hardware, but for the most part, they are very similar.

Posted via CB10

[crackberry_geek]

Why? They all do the same basic things, i.e., functions--email, text, Internet, camera, apps, etc. They are just implemented in different ways. Sure, you have some differences in softtware or hardware, but for the most part, they are very similar.

Posted via CB10

Really?

File management
Multiple email attachments
VKB flick typing
LED blinking

Just to quickly name a few that I am not willing to live without ... if I had the time I could go on and on.

Posted via CB10

[Tre Lawrence]

Really?

File management
Multiple email attachments
VKB flick typing
LED blinking

Just to quickly name a few that I am not willing to live without ... if I had the time I could go on and on.

All things that, based on current trends, are probably features that BlackBerry could do without.

Clearly, BlackBerry itself doesn't consider these to be important differentiators in today's market.

[DrBoomBotz]

Whenever I see this kind of naive statement I realize that what follows is not well informed... so I just skip over it.

Posted via CB10

Can you make a table for the naive among us?

[conite]

Really?

File management
Multiple email attachments
VKB flick typing
LED blinking

Just to quickly name a few that I am not willing to live without ... if I had the time I could go on and on.

Posted via CB10

Although Priv does all that very nicely.

[Troy Tiscareno]

Really?

File management
Multiple email attachments
VKB flick typing
LED blinking

Aside from the "flick typing", my last 3 Android phones have had all of the above, and so do many, many others. The entire world outside of BB is not an iPhone, you know.

[crackberry_geek]

Although Priv does all that very nicely.

Not well... if you've been following some of the threads around here...

Posted via CB10

[aha]

Regardless, gentlemen, BB10 is near its end.

PassportSQW100-1/10.3.2.2639

[aha]

Regardless, gentlemen, BB10 is near its end.

PassportSQW100-1/10.3.2.2639

Unless the guy went Romania comes back and rescue BB 10 with his money.

PassportSQW100-1/10.3.2.2639

[conite]

Not well... if you've been following some of the threads around here...

Posted via CB10

I have one.

I moved from the Passport SE to the Priv. I'm very happy with it. I'd have a hard time going back now - and I'm a diehard power BlackBerry user going back to the 7100i.

Once customised to my liking, I'm simply flying around this device.

[crackberry_geek]

I have one.

I moved from the Passport SE to the Priv. I'm very happy with it. I'd have a hard time going back now - and I'm a diehard power BlackBerry user going back to the 7100i.

Once customised to my liking, I'm simply flying around this device.

So you've had none of the commonly reported issues?

Heat?
Typing lag on PKB?
Poor build quality ?
Inability to access larger than 4gb files on SD?
File attachment issues in email?
Access to enterprise MS Exchange encrypted email (can't be done)?
Unreliable blinking LED?

Is everyone else just making this stuff up?

Posted via CB10

[conite]

On

So you've had none of the commonly reported issues?

Heat?
Typing lag on PKB?
Poor build quality ?
Inability to access larger than 4gb files on SD?
File attachment issues in email?
Access to enterprise MS Exchange encrypted email (can't be done)?
Unreliable blinking LED?

Is everyone else just making this stuff up?

Posted via CB10

SD card access and file attachments from HUB were both fixed in the update today.

I have not had unexpected heating issues, although it can get a bit warm when driven hard.

No lag on either keyboard.

I do not use MS Exchange, so I can't comment. Although this sounds like a software issue that will be resolve.

No issues with LED or build quality. It's actually the nicest device hardware I've ever owned along with the Passport SE.