[kennyliu]

And how are you going to demonstrate that iOS is not the most advanced mobile OS on the market?

Simple. iOS:

- is NOT microkernel
- is NOT RTOS
- is NOT the best choice for power plants, airplanes, cars, and other embedded systems
- is NOT a tool, but just a toy

[the_sleuth]

Well Apple are marketing geniuses. One banner has elicited over 4200 hits and close to 160 replies in a CrackBerry forum. Now multiply this by the permutations and combinations on the Internet. The Apple spin doctors and PR brigade have not spent a red cent. Yet any move or speculation of Apple's intentions are analyzed with CSI scientific precision.

Not even Google I/O event can muster this kind of buzz.

When BBOS 10 drops this fall, will anyone hear it after the thunderous tsunami of iPhone 5? Carriers might be too busy with the other piece of fruit.

[ADGrant]

Simple. iOS is NOT:

- microkernel
- RTOS
- best choice for power plants, airplanes, cars, and other embedded systems

None of those things is relevant for a mobile OS but iOS is based on Mac OS which was based on the NeXt OS which had a MACH microkernal. Microkernals have fallen out of favor because they performance suffers relative to monolithic kernels.

[kennyliu]

None of those things is relevant for a mobile OS but iOS is based on Mac OS which was based on the NeXt OS which had a MACH microkernal. Microkernals have fallen out of favor because they performance suffers relative to monolithic kernels.

No. You are wrong.

- QNX doesn't require rebooting your device, when an app misbehaves. In fact, it never requires a reboot.
- All non-RTOS and non-microkernel OSs are plain unstable and crash regularly
- QNX is the only platform that doesn't need apps
- And, most importantly, iOS never powered a nuclear power plant

At least this is what I got from reading some of the posts

[kevinnugent]

None of those things is relevant for a mobile OS but iOS is based on Mac OS which was based on the NeXt OS which had a MACH microkernal. Microkernals have fallen out of favor because they performance suffers relative to monolithic kernels.

Ah, but can it let Mum look at those gorgeous pictures of her children on the computer at your house? The most advanced OS is the one that let's people do what they want, with ease and little thought. Think about it.

[kennyliu]

Oh, by the way, do you know why PBOS takes 3 minutes to boot up?

It's all because of security built into QNX.

(but I remember reading that QNX Neutrino was one of the fastest booting desktop systems :giggles: )

Sorry, I am just being sarcastic

[Tre Lawrence]

Simple. iOS:

- is NOT microkernel
- is NOT RTOS
- is NOT the best choice for power plants, airplanes, cars, and other embedded systems
- is NOT a tool, but just a toy

LOL. You're killing me.

[kennyliu]

LOL. You're killing me.

All kidding aside, the appeal of an OS boils down to the user experience (which, among other things, includes the UI/ease of use/visual polishedness, functionality (e.g. app/OS cross-integration, background services, and many many other things), stability, and, of course, the ecosystem).

Probably the last thing on the consumer's mind is whether the OS is used in planes, whether it's real-time or microkernel.

A platform just needs to work, and work well.

Anyway, I hope that BB10 will pleasantly surprise us.

[Tre Lawrence]

All kidding aside, the appeal of an OS boils down to the user experience (which, among other things, includes the UI/ease of use/visual polishedness, functionality (e.g. app/OS cross-integration, background services, and many many other things), stability, and, of course, ecosystem). The last thing on the consumer's mind is whether the OS is used in planes, whether it's real-time or multikernel. It just needs to work, and work well.

Anyway, I hope that BB10 will pleasantly surprise us.

EXACTLY!!!

No one cares if it powers the sun. Consumers care if it does what they want. The, uh, "kernelism" of an OS means squat to the average customer.

[cbvinh]

Than Toyota must be the most advanced car in the world.....

I'm surprised you didn't jump upon the obvious that Windows is the most advanced operating system in the world. It has the sales numbers to back it up and customers that are willing to buy it again and again.

Does large sales imply being advanced or customer satisfaction?

[gord888]

Does large sales imply being advanced or customer satisfaction?

Neither, it implies indifference.

[MasterOfBinary]

Their reputation for being long lasting and reliable are known throughout the World. One can assume that they have some pretty advanced engineering. So what is your point?

The point is there's such a thing as a Ferrari. You've probably never heard of it.

[kevinnugent]

The point is there's such a thing as a Ferrari. You've probably never heard of it.

Probably not a great example. The technology in a Ferrari isn't any different to a Toyota. It's just faster and more expensive. The technology in say they Nissan GT that never made it out of Japan would be more relevant. Cars are not a great example, really.

[jegs2]

Not happy and satisfied consumers?

Mobile post via Tapatalk

Concur. Know many of my fellow military co-workers who were issued Blackberry phones and owned them in the past, but they've all gone to Droids and iPhones - because they just like them better. In fact, I know of only one other fellow co-worker who owns a Blackberry. Sometimes, the simplest answer is the right one.

[psufan32]

The iOS 6 banner claims iOS 6 to be "the world's most advanced mobile operating system".

So iOS 6 will be a real-time OS with true multitasking and allows updating system services without rebooting.

Oh wait. Have I just described QNX?

What did you expect from Apple? "iOS6 - it's okay"?

Expecting Apple under either Jobs or Cook to say anything other than "this is the greatest thing in the world" is like expecting Donald Trump not to call every golf course he owns the best in the world or for BMW to do away with their "The Ultimate Driving Machine" slogan. None of them are true, but that's what advertising and self promotion is all about.

[Rickroller]

What did you expect from Apple? "iOS6 - it's okay"?

Expecting Apple under either Jobs or Cook to say anything other than "this is the greatest thing in the world" is like expecting Donald Trump not to call every golf course he owns the best in the world or for BMW to do away with their "The Ultimate Driving Machine" slogan. None of them are true, but that's what advertising and self promotion is all about.

Right! Now, please explain that to RIM. Maybe then we can see some marketing that actually markets something.

[KAM1138]

What did you expect from Apple? "iOS6 - it's okay"?

Expecting Apple under either Jobs or Cook to say anything other than "this is the greatest thing in the world" is like expecting Donald Trump not to call every golf course he owns the best in the world or for BMW to do away with their "The Ultimate Driving Machine" slogan. None of them are true, but that's what advertising and self promotion is all about.

AND...this is exactly what we talked about in a few threads last week. OF COURSE Apple is going to market their product this way.

So, anyone who waved off the importance of the marketing effort--no matter what your "expertise" tells you, I'll take Historical and Current examples of success over any expert advice.

I can see it now--BB10 is AWESOME, best OS around today...and Apple says "Our is better" (effectively) and wins, without ANY regard to functionality or anything else real.

What people don't seem to get is that BB10 won't even get a CHANCE to win people over without a VERY effective marketing campaign.

"But, But, BB10 is X, Y, Z to the infinite power"
"It's iphone X."

That's BARELY an exaggeration.

That's the sad story I think, UNLESS Marketing makes it otherwise.

[Tre Lawrence]

AND...this is exactly what we talked about in a few threads last week. OF COURSE Apple is going to market their product this way.

So, anyone who waved off the importance of the marketing effort--no matter what your "expertise" tells you, I'll take Historical and Current examples of success over any expert advice.

I can see it now--BB10 is AWESOME, best OS around today...and Apple says "Our is better" (effectively) and wins, without ANY regard to functionality or anything else real.

What people don't seem to get is that BB10 won't even get a CHANCE to win people over without a VERY effective marketing campaign.

"But, But, BB10 is X, Y, Z to the infinite power"
"It's iphone X."

That's BARELY an exaggeration.

That's the sad story I think, UNLESS Marketing makes it otherwise.

Marketing means squat without a good product AND a vibrant ecosystem. Apple can claim to be the best till the cows come home, but in the end, if it does not make a good experience that compels customers to use their products, saying it is the best is a waste of time.

So far, most rational people will concur that Apple is succeeding.

[KAM1138]

Marketing means squat without a good product AND a vibrant ecosystem. Apple can claim to be the best till the cows come home, but in the end, if it does not make a good experience that compels customers to use their products, saying it is the best is a waste of time.

So far, most rational people will concur that Apple is succeeding.

And having a Great product means squat without a Marketing effort that works--ask any WebOS fan about that.

Never said that you don't have to have a GOOD product. That's what Apple has--a GOOD product. What they have however is GREAT success.

However, if you think that Apple's success isn't HIGHLY dependent on its very successful marketing and branding, you're mistaken.

I don't think Apple is CLOSE to being the "Best" and never has been...well maybe a narrow time. Yet they hold a premiere position.

Great Products can fail, while GOOD products with superior marketing succeed. THAT is the story of the Apple iphone as I see it. Are there customers happy? OBVIOUSLY, but it doesn't mean the majority of those customers have spent one SECOND comparing their iphone to BB (or anything else).

People are VERY susceptible to Branding and Brand Loyalty--which is why companies spend millions upon millions of dollars on it.

Anyone who thinks that BB10 will win non-BB users over on its technical merits (or any type) is gravely mistaken. Without a Great marketing effort, they will not succeed in the consumer mobile device market.

KAM

[sleepngbear]

Marketing means squat without a good product AND a vibrant ecosystem. Apple can claim to be the best till the cows come home, but in the end, if it does not make a good experience that compels customers to use their products, saying it is the best is a waste of time.

So far, most rational people will concur that Apple is succeeding.

Marketing is not just advertising. Knowing the market being targeted and developing the right product for it is also part of marketing -- a BIG part. Understanding the need for that eco-system is another part. RIM has been weak at all of this; BBs are not bad, they're just not what the majority of smart phone users want. I don't think there's any arguing that that was due to a poor understanding of the market. We think they've gotten the first part of it now, though admittedly we will not know for sure until BB10 actually drops. It all needs to work in concert with advertising -- effectively getting the word out there to prospective customers. That's the biggest question mark right now.

We may be saying the same thing and I'm just splitting hairs.

[psufan32]

And having a Great product means squat without a Marketing effort that works--ask any WebOS fan about that.

Never said that you don't have to have a GOOD product. That's what Apple has--a GOOD product. What they have however is GREAT success.

However, if you think that Apple's success isn't HIGHLY dependent on its very successful marketing and branding, you're mistaken.

I don't think Apple is CLOSE to being the "Best" and never has been...well maybe a narrow time. Yet they hold a premiere position.

Great Products can fail, while GOOD products with superior marketing succeed. THAT is the story of the Apple iphone as I see it. Are there customers happy? OBVIOUSLY, but it doesn't mean the majority of those customers have spent one SECOND comparing their iphone to BB (or anything else).

People are VERY susceptible to Branding and Brand Loyalty--which is why companies spend millions upon millions of dollars on it.

Anyone who thinks that BB10 will win non-BB users over on its technical merits (or any type) is gravely mistaken. Without a Great marketing effort, they will not succeed in the consumer mobile device market.

KAM

Apple is where they are today for a myriad of reasons. Successful marketing is but one of them. Apple's products may not be GREAT products to you, but they are GREAT products to a whole heck of a lot of people. Don't try to trivialize it, because it can't be trivialized.

[ADGrant]

I don't think Apple is CLOSE to being the "Best" and never has been...well maybe a narrow time. Yet they hold a premiere position.

....

Great Products can fail, while GOOD products with superior marketing succeed. THAT is the story of the Apple iphone as I see it. Are there customers happy? OBVIOUSLY, but it doesn't mean the majority of those customers have spent one SECOND comparing their iphone to BB (or anything else).

A large number of former BB users now use an iPhone and a large number of current BB users also have an iPhone or an iPad. RIM's problems are not due to marketing or ignorance on the part of Apple customers.

If iOS is not close to the best, name a smartphone currently on the market that is clearly superior by a wide margin.

[Tre Lawrence]

And having a Great product means squat without a Marketing effort that works--ask any WebOS fan about that.

Never said that you don't have to have a GOOD product. That's what Apple has--a GOOD product. What they have however is GREAT success.

However, if you think that Apple's success isn't HIGHLY dependent on its very successful marketing and branding, you're mistaken.

I don't think Apple is CLOSE to being the "Best" and never has been...well maybe a narrow time. Yet they hold a premiere position.

Great Products can fail, while GOOD products with superior marketing succeed. THAT is the story of the Apple iphone as I see it. Are there customers happy? OBVIOUSLY, but it doesn't mean the majority of those customers have spent one SECOND comparing their iphone to BB (or anything else).

People are VERY susceptible to Branding and Brand Loyalty--which is why companies spend millions upon millions of dollars on it.

Anyone who thinks that BB10 will win non-BB users over on its technical merits (or any type) is gravely mistaken. Without a Great marketing effort, they will not succeed in the consumer mobile device market.

KAM

I don't think we disagree too much.

If Apple customers are not looking to check out what the competition offers, that means Apple is doing one heck of a job at keeping them happy... and this is no small feat in our day of the John Fickle Smith.

Marketing makes new customers. Good products keep them. Your point that good products can fail is spot on. I just don't believe marketing can prop up a bad product for too long. Some fellow CBers will disagree with me on that. I also believe that corporate marketing is not what pushes iOS sales; I think word of mouth from satisfied customers does.

My overlying point is simple: marketing is not RIM's biggest problem right now, nor is it Apple's biggest weapon. Apple does know how to market the heck out of products, but it has also figured out something more important: how to create long-term mindshare.

[KAM1138]

Marketing is not just advertising. Knowing the market being targeted and developing the right product for it is also part of marketing -- a BIG part. Understanding the need for that eco-system is another part. RIM has been weak at all of this; BBs are not bad, they're just not what the majority of smart phone users want. I don't think there's any arguing that that was due to a poor understanding of the market. We think they've gotten the first part of it now, though admittedly we will not know for sure until BB10 actually drops. It all needs to work in concert with advertising -- effectively getting the word out there to prospective customers. That's the biggest question mark right now.

We may be saying the same thing and I'm just splitting hairs.

More hair-splitting here perhaps, but I think there it isn't totally "Not what the majority of smart phone users want." Well, to be accurate I should say I think there is a difference in what they REALLY want, and what they are told they want (and believe).

Is there any real way to determine if a consumer is well informed and buying what they REALLY want, or not? Probably not, but we all know advertising works, which indicates that people are not evaluating things that deeply, but responding to advertising and marketing.

That is my concern with BB10. I'm assuming it will be technologically great (really don't know yet), but that most people will never get to the point of evaluating that at all.

One step back--first, it is difficult to switch for most people--they can't buy a phone one month and then say "Oh I like this better." So, there is a lot of built-in inertia in this market for casual users. A casual user isn't nearly as likely to bet on something that is different from what they're used to (and is "cool" and works--like the iphone).

What I'm saying is that the majority of smart phone users are TOLD what they want (or need) and don't bother looking at what is really the best device (objectively or for their actual needs). That's why I think that Marketing (Assuming the devices aren't total junk) is MORE important than the actual device.

I think Marketing trumps product in the Mobile Market, and I claim that Apple is the prime example of this. That's not saying Apple is a BAD product, just not the magically awesome product many people hold it up as being.

RIM is NOT competing on a level playing field currently (or when BB10 will drop), and Marketing I think is the reason why.

KAM

[KAM1138]

I don't think we disagree too much.

If Apple customers are not looking to check out what the competition offers, that means Apple is doing one heck of a job at keeping them happy... and this is no small feat in our day of the John Fickle Smith.

Marketing makes new customers. Good products keep them. Your point that good products can fail is spot on. I just don't believe marketing can prop up a bad product for too long. Some fellow CBers will disagree with me on that. I also believe that corporate marketing is not what pushes iOS sales; I think word of mouth from satisfied customers does.

My overlying point is simple: marketing is not RIM's biggest problem right now, nor is it Apple's biggest weapon. Apple does know how to market the heck out of products, but it has also figured out something more important: how to create long-term mindshare.

Well, I think we agree on the basics, but not the conclusions we are drawing. That's ok however.

I do agree that Word-of-Mouth is a huge asset to Apple, but emphasize that this is a mechanism to ignore actual product evaluation. RIM has the opposite problem in many cases, or rather the good word of mouth is brushed aside.

Maybe it comes down to position held by each of these two example companies. Apple's position (or perhaps inertia) is carrying it forward, whereas RIM has little or none.

Where we differ I think is that I think non-technical efforts (be it word of mouth, or marketing, or press-buzz) is MUCH faster at creating momentum, ASSUMING there is a good product.

ALL of what I've been talking about in various threads works under the assumption that these products are all at least "good."

I would agree that RIMs biggest problem right now is finishing their BB10 work and getting a product out. However, I think it is very important to lay the groundwork for launching BB10, and to get that inertia in their favor.

KAM