What are the conditions at RIM's manufacturing plants?

[D_March]

Originally Posted by Economist101

It's called "capitalism." Like it or not, it's what we have. Funny how this wasn't a problem until this week.



Again, funny how this was never a problem until this week. If you don't like the laws, change them. I wish you luck; you'll need it.



Their rate is 35% because that's the corporate tax rate, it's their "effective" rate which is somewhere below that, but I'll guarantee you it's higher than Mitt Romney's.

This has always been a problem for me and always will be. If you like it then good for you. I work regularly to change it. I believe capitalism requires regulation because of greed. I have always railed against any and all companies that hide their money and don't pay their share. My comment wasn't specific to apple but they sure are one on the list...as is google who used NSF funds to get started and now hides their obligations.

[i7guy]

Originally Posted by Economist101

It's called "capitalism." Like it or not, it's what we have. Funny how this wasn't a problem until this week.



Again, funny how this was never a problem until this week. If you don't like the laws, change them. I wish you luck; you'll need it.



Their rate is 35% because that's the corporate tax rate, it's their "effective" rate which is somewhere below that, but I'll guarantee you it's higher than Mitt Romney's.

It wasn't a problem this week, it was a problem for a while. It just came to a head this week.

[Palmless]

Originally Posted by stackberry369

just b/c it is legal doesn't make it right.

It's legal AND right, I do understand that.

Should Apple say "We have $10M that we earned in a country, in a bank in that country. The right thing to do would be to bring it into the United States and pay 3x% tax on it for no reason. That would be the right thing to do even though we have no legal nor moral obligation to do so... we just, uh, should."

Here's a hint.

People who think like that never need to think like that, because you don't end up with a lot of money if you think like that for a long period of time.

[sosumi11]

Originally Posted by i7guy

It wasn't a problem this week, it was a problem for a while. It just came to a head this week.

In other words, it wasn't a problem if companies made small profits from foreign labor policies. It's only when companies make large profits from foreign labor policies that it becomes a problem.

It's just like the perception of saving trees by not using paper. The reality is that trees are a renewable resource (mills plant 7 trees for every tree they cut down and own the forests which are called tree farms).

There is a difference between perception and reality. And the reality of the matter is that you cannot compare labor practices of one country to another. Despite what the perception seems like.

[blue-b]

While I'm sure in general working conditions are no where near NA standards, but even in China there will be different degrees in regards to quality of standards. Apple is very demanding company, the result is what has been happening at foxcom. Saying, well everything is made in China, just makes a person feel better about thier purchases.

I used to be a huge ifan, but in the last year I've have soured for various reasons, this being one. What they personafy in thier marketing material does not match the way they conduct business.

[xandermac]

Originally Posted by bbpandy

How about Apple's OWN audit....But don't worry, Apple made the managment take a seminar on how bad child labour is & also pay some $$ to the parents of the kids...BUT only to the parents of the kids they (Apple) found.

Page 9 of the Apple supplier responsibility report.

(see the last paragraphs for action taken when a supplier doesn't shape up, then show me what the rest of the industry is doing to help)

2010 Findings and Corrective Actions

In recent years, Chinese factories have increasingly turned to labor agencies and vocational schools to meet their workforce demands. We learned that some of these recruitment sources may provide false IDs that misrepresent young people’s ages, posing challenges for factory management.
To address this difficult scenario, we intensified our search for underage labor in 2010, interviewing more workers and further scrutinizing recruiting practices, employment records, and worker IDs, especially where third-party labor agencies and schools were involved. Our audits of 127 facilities revealed ten Chinese factories that had hired workers under the age of 16 years, the minimum age for employment in China.
Across nine of these facilities, a total of 49 workers were hired before reaching the legal age. Working with experts in the field, Apple conducted a complete analysis of the hiring systems at each factory. We found that all facilities had unsophisticated systems for age verification and ID checks. Apple has required the facilities to institute policies and procedures that will prevent employment of underage workers and to enforce them with third-party recruiters. To ensure effective implementation, we required managers to attend training and to follow up with one-on-one consulting. All facilities have cooperated fully with these measures.

Of the ten facilities with underage labor violations, we found one that had hired a much larger number of underage workers, a total of 42. In addition, we determined that management had chosen to overlook the issue and was not committed to addressing the problem. Based on the poor likelihood of improvement, we terminated business with the facility.

During our investigation, we also discovered that the vocational school involved in hiring the underage workers had falsified student IDs and threatened retaliation against students who revealed their ages during our audits. We reported the school to appropriate authorities in the Chinese government.

Apple is actually taking steps and unless anyone has supporting evidence and not merely speculation they're the only tech company that is doing so.

Cut though the hyperbole and show us all what YOUR tech company is doing?

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[i7guy]

Originally Posted by Economist101

It's called "capitalism." Like it or not, it's what we have. Funny how this wasn't a problem until this week.



Again, funny how this was never a problem until this week. If you don't like the laws, change them. I wish you luck; you'll need it.



Their rate is 35% because that's the corporate tax rate, it's their "effective" rate which is somewhere below that, but I'll guarantee you it's higher than Mitt Romney's.

We should get Warren Buffet on this immediately. I think he said he would volunteer to pay more tax to help out the government and our good citizens...but we digress.

[Economist101]

Originally Posted by D_March

This has always been a problem for me and always will be. If you like it then good for you. I work regularly to change it. I believe capitalism requires regulation because of greed. I have always railed against any and all companies that hide their money and don't pay their share. My comment wasn't specific to apple but they sure are one on the list...as is google who used NSF funds to get started and now hides their obligations.

The "list" you mention would include every U.S. corporation with non-U.S. operations. They are ALL looking to reduce their tax liability, no matter how low it already is.

[allsportsfan]

I understand that all too well. But if all American companies decided to go offshore to produce, what's stopping them from offshoring all the design, R&D, engineering, marketing, etc. So people would be happy that those jobs were offshored in Apple companies living in countries where the wages and living conditions are not as high as North America?

Its a debate

[xandermac]

Originally Posted by D_March

Why should they pay back to the country that provided the environment and opportunity for their success

If you believe that the united states has created a friendly corporate manufacturing business environment you're kidding yourself. Manufacturing left the US for a reason and it wasn't just labor.

Some leftist hippy organization recently estimated that it would only add about $30 (labor cost) to the cost of an iPhone to build them in the US. (which incidentally works out to about an addition $16.5 million per day in addition labor cost based on 49 odd million produced last quarter).

What they forgot to add was investment in plants/equipment. Regulation, taxation, unions, benefits etc....

Manufacturing isn't possible here unless you're a car maker with a taxpayer bailout fund at the ready.




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[D_March]

Leftist hippy organization? Am I speaking to the ghost of Nixon? That is just too funny.

[D_March]

Originally Posted by Economist101

The "list" you mention would include every U.S. corporation with non-U.S. operations. They are ALL looking to reduce their tax liability, no matter how low it already is.

Yes it might. Does that upset you?

[xandermac]

Originally Posted by D_March

Yes it might. Does that upset you?

What would you suggest we do to attract manufacturing back to the USA? Obviously they can't be ordered back, so what is the solution? I really am interested, I'd like to hear some valid ideas.


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[BigBadWulf]

It's a global market, so all manufacturers have to keep production costs down or fail. The overwhelming percentage of consumers don't purchase based on a companies moral standing, it's price/features/value. There's a few issues we seem to be discussing here. First on topic....

While from a NA/EU perspective, conditions may be horrid for employees in other parts of the world. While I don't condone employee abuse, we cannot truly judge what is/isn't so easily. Even some of the worst examples I'll bet have assisted in uplifting overall living conditions for people there.

When it comes to bringing manufacturing back to NA, I'll focus on one clear point. Corporations don't pay taxes, they collect taxes and pass them on to the government. If a nation chooses to tax companies high, they either have to forgo profits to keep pricing in line, look for cheaper labor (obviously productivity is at play here), or find ways to defer paying said taxes. From my perspective, the quickest way to resolve the issue, is to eliminate the taxing of corporations, and change the model to a consumer driven collection, such as the Fair Tax plan.

Those who truly care about the Chinese worker, are not helping them by shutting down manufacturing operations there, or demanding conditions which would cause the plants to close. They are steadfast moving toward a free and open society. That change will do more for the average Chinese worker, than any boycott would ever do.

Once in a while, we need to get off our high horse, and jump on a Shetland pony.

[xandermac]

Originally Posted by BigBadWulf

It's a global market, so all manufacturers have to keep production costs down or fail. The overwhelming percentage of consumers don't purchase based on a companies moral standing, it's price/features/value. There's a few issues we seem to be discussing here. First on topic....

While from a NA/EU perspective, conditions may be horrid for employees in other parts of the world. While I don't condone employee abuse, we cannot truly judge what is/isn't so easily. Even some of the worst examples I'll bet have assisted in uplifting overall living conditions for people there.

When it comes to bringing manufacturing back to NA, I'll focus on one clear point. Corporations don't pay taxes, they collect taxes and pass them on to the government. If a nation chooses to tax companies high, they either have to forgo profits to keep pricing in line, look for cheaper labor (obviously productivity is at play here), or find ways to defer paying said taxes. From my perspective, the quickest way to resolve the issue, is to eliminate the taxing of corporations, and change the model to a consumer driven collection, such as the Fair Tax plan.

Those who truly care about the Chinese worker, are not helping them by shutting down manufacturing operations there, or demanding conditions which would cause the plants to close. They are steadfast moving toward a free and open society. That change will do more for the average Chinese worker, than any boycott would ever do.

Once in a while, we need to get off our high horse, and jump on a Shetland pony.

You just made it onto my most respected list for this post. Thank you for some common sense. Boortz would be proud.


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