[tack]

First I choose my carrier for signal quality. Second I choose my phone. I would switch platforms before leaving Verizon due to signal quality. Verizon won't totally forgo BB.

I love Windows Phone and I love Windows 8. MS is going the right direction unifying the phone, tablet and PC/laptop interface. I will buy in big most likely, and I love my iPhone. I see myself on Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8 with a tablet and phone before Q1 2013. I think it is smart of VZW.

[CHIP72]

I loved my Windows phones before I tried BB, but....I just can't get behind these tiles.
I'll go back and try out Windows when they get rid of them. Right now, I would get ridiculously bored if all I could do was change the colours on the tiles.
I just can't get past them.

Microsoft probably won't be getting rid of the tiles anytime soon. If Microsoft does things right with Windows 8 (i.e. doesn't release a poorly functioning product) and there is wide adoption of Windows 8, the benefits of tiles to most people (which is to provide information without opening the application and contain information about a wealth of items that require multiple applications on Blackberry 7 OS, iOS, and Android OS) will become a lot more obvious IMO.

[CHIP72]

Verizon won't completely abandon RIM smartphones if they have 4G LTE capability. Having said that, they may be slow to support Blackberry 10 OS smartphones, not because of RIM's lengthy delays in releasing it, but because Verizon is reluctant to throw full support behind ANY new mobile OS. They didn't do it with iOS, they didn't do it with Android OS (they didn't start really supporting it until the original Motorola Droid became a hit product, 1 1/2 years after the first Android smartphone was released), they didn't do it with webOS (left Sprint fall on their sword on that one), and they haven't done it yet with Windows Phone OS (though I expect Verizon to support WP 8 devices pretty strongly).

[CHIP72]

RIM has learned some tough and hard lessons. From that, I would have no doubt in my mind that RIM clearly intends and has developed BB10 to be able to :

a) compete on at least equal footing on ease of use, features and performance with ios and android full touchscreen phones
b) provide the best in class app development framework and environment to ease, encourage, and promote development of BB10 apps.

The rest? we will see.. I dont think anyone can make the statement that BB10 is or is not anything as yet. .. that will only be determined 6 months after launch with sales figures.

The part I bolded above is where RIM is potentially in trouble with Blackberry 10 OS if Blackberry QNX OS is a guide (i.e. if you assume BB 10 OS will be similar to BB QNX OS). In my not so humble opinion (for this particular issue), RIM needs to make Blackberry 10 OS distinctly superior to what is available on iOS and Android OS, and because they've delayed BB 10 OS so much, it now also needs to be at least a little better than Windows Phone OS to be the primary alternative to iOS and Android OS. If Blackberry 10 OS isn't clearly superior to iOS and Android OS, why would iOS/Android OS users change from either of those 2 platforms, and if Blackberry 10 OS isn't better than Windows Phone OS, why would iOS/Android OS users consider Blackberry 10 OS the primary alternative to iOS and Android OS instead of Windows Phone OS? Making a superior mobile OS is what Microsoft has tried to do with Windows Phone OS, and IMO, based on my own user experience, I think they've succeeded (and even so, they're having trouble getting WP OS adoption). I also feel, again based on my personal user experience, that 1) Windows Phone OS is superior to Blackberry QNX OS (and I really like BB QNX; it is my second-favorite mobile OS right now) and 2) Blackberry QNX OS, while better than iOS and Android OS IMO, is only incrementally better than those 2 mobile OS (especially iOS), mainly because of the gesture interface. To me, Blackberry QNX OS is like webOS running more smoothly on much better hardware. WebOS itself came out in 2009 and it couldn't stem the tide of iOS or become the primary, alternative next-generation mobile OS at that time (Android OS did), even though webOS (at least IMO) is generally superior to Android OS. We're now in 2012, three years later. An upgraded version of webOS (i.e. what in my eyes Blackberry QNX OS is) isn't enough of an improvement to encourage people to switch from iOS or Android OS, and it isn't as good of an alternative to those 2 aforementioned mobile OS as Windows Phone OS is IMO.

Now of course we don't know what changes/improvements there will be from Blackberry QNX OS to Blackberry 10 OS; there could be significant improvements that make it vastly superior to iOS and Android OS and better than Windows Phone OS. On the other hand, the other mobile OS manufacturers aren't sitting still either; we already know that Windows 8 OS (which mind you won't be on smartphones, though it will share a lot of technical operating abilities with Windows Phone 8 OS) will incorporate gestures, ala Blackberry QNX OS and webOS (and gestures IMO are the greatest strength of both of those latter 2 platforms). Apple made significant operating system improvements between iOS 4 and iOS 5 and probably will make some more improvements with iOS 6. Google, from reports I've read, made a number of significant improvements with Android OS 4.0 over earlier versions. (I don't currently have any Android OS 4.0 devices to confirm/deny this.) The bottom line is RIM needs to 1) get their act together fast and release Blackberry 10 OS products as soon as possible and 2) ensure Blackberry 10 OS is a spectacular product, clearly superior to next-generation iOS 6 and Android 4.X/5.0 and at worst equal to and preferably superior to Windows Phone 8 OS. If Blackberry QNX OS on the Playbook is a guide, I'm not sure that will be the case (and I say that as someone who really likes Blackberry QNX OS and commented positively on Blackberry QNX OS/Blackberry Playbook in response to various tech site articles about currently available tablets). Obviously we'll see what happens but I'd be surprised if Blackberry 10 OS is the silver bullet that puts RIM back in a strong position in the mobile OS "wars".

[the_sleuth]

As most have stated, it's not about the OS anymore. I don't think most of Android and iOS users will switch back to BlackBerry. Once invested into an ecosystem, most users will not leave. RIM now has to focus on the remaining feature phone users switching to smartphones. RIM has fierce competition with Android and WP7. iPhone is considered a premium product outside of N. America due to most phones are not subsidized. All of them are chasing the remaining feature phone users. Android is attracting the budget users. Microsoft has not really marketed WP7. It has left this to the carriers and hardware makers like Nokia, HTC and Samsung

RIM's challenge is differentiate with a cascades UI in BBOS 10 with best features of BBM connected, integrated email with social sites and so forth. Let's see if TAT can deliver more than tantalizing demos. Another big challenge is a proper ecosystem of apps, music, books, and videos. This latter challenge is where RIM needs partners, like Amazon, DangDang, and Flipkart.

[avt123]

Microsoft probably won't be getting rid of the tiles anytime soon. If Microsoft does things right with Windows 8 (i.e. doesn't release a poorly functioning product) and there is wide adoption of Windows 8, the benefits of tiles to most people (which is to provide information without opening the application and contain information about a wealth of items that require multiple applications on Blackberry 7 OS, iOS, and Android OS) will become a lot more obvious IMO.

Android has widgets. What extra information do tiles show that widgets can't?

Personally, I'd rather use widgets than tiles. No amount of information will make me like Metro UI.

[sleepngbear]

BB will not be abandoned all together, there's always a market for enhanced feature phones.

Seriously?

[D_March]

Seriously?

If you speak to him he'll post again.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk

[qbnkelt]

Seriously?

It's a gnat....I take out my can of Raid and get rid of it.
Sometimes it comes back.
Gnats are notoriously persnickety.

[lnichols]

Seriously?

I can't see what garbage of his is said if you don't quote him! When you do the ignore feature is useless.

[CHIP72]

Android has widgets. What extra information do tiles show that widgets can't?

Personally, I'd rather use widgets than tiles. No amount of information will make me like Metro UI.

I think most people who have used both Windows Phone OS and Android OS would agree that Windows Phone OS operates much more smoothly than Android OS. (Also, IMO tiles look nicer than widgets, but that's not as generally agreed upon as the Windows Phone OS/Android OS performance comparison.)

[Rootbrian]

Meh, verizon is just one carrier in the USA. The world is much larger outside the boarders... Go blackberry.

Other device owners, enjoy what you have.

[avt123]

I think most people who have used both Windows Phone OS and Android OS would agree that Windows Phone OS operates much more smoothly than Android OS. (Also, IMO tiles look nicer than widgets, but that's not as generally agreed upon as the Windows Phone OS/Android OS performance comparison.)

I agree WP7 is smoother than a stock Android device. That wasn't my question though.

My question was, what can live tiles show that widgets can't? Yes the look is a preference. I would rather not have a bunch of large squares on my screen that makes a background not visible and has extremely limited customization.

Can you scroll through information by just using a live tile? Or is it just auto updated with the newest things?

Can you post things to a social network, text, email or calendar by staying on the homescreen and just using a live tile?

Can you have the weather show on a tile for multiple areas?

Can you scan through multiple RSS feeds without opening the app itself?

From my experience with the live tiles and widgets, widgets seem like they can do more, while tiles seem to just display the most important/recent things (which can be done with widgets as well). WP7 is going in the right direction though (feature wise, I just can't stand metro UI). Within the next couple of years it may possibly be the most popular OS out.

[ubizmo]

I agree WP7 is smoother than a stock Android device. That wasn't my question though.

My question was, what can live tiles show that widgets can't? Yes the look is a preference. I would rather not have a bunch of large squares on my screen that makes a background not visible and has extremely limited customization.

Limited customization is one of the chief complaints about Metro. There are apps that allow the user to design and customize tiles, but I think most WP users are hoping for more baked-in customizability in WP8.

Can you scroll through information by just using a live tile? Or is it just auto updated with the newest things?

The latter. Some tiles may update graphically; others shows text. For example, the NextGen RSS app tile scrolls through headlines.

Can you post things to a social network, text, email or calendar by staying on the homescreen and just using a live tile?

No. For that you touch the tile and open the app.

Can you have the weather show on a tile for multiple areas?

Yes, if someone writes the app that way. I don't know of one that does it, but I don't see any barrier in principle.

Can you scan through multiple RSS feeds without opening the app itself?

No, but see above.

From my experience with the live tiles and widgets, widgets seem like they can do more, while tiles seem to just display the most important/recent things (which can be done with widgets as well). WP7 is going in the right direction though (feature wise, I just can't stand metro UI). Within the next couple of years it may possibly be the most popular OS out.

I don't have much experience with widgets, but the idea of live tiles isn't to present a compact version of an app but to present the user with the most recent updates or changes. I really don't think it's revolutionary, but it's done well in WP, in my opinion. Users who don't like a home screen full of tiles can have as few as they like. Wallpaper is visible on the lock screen.

[avt123]

Limited customization is one of the chief complaints about Metro. There are apps that allow the user to design and customize tiles, but I think most WP users are hoping for more baked-in customizability in WP8.



The latter. Some tiles may update graphically; others shows text. For example, the NextGen RSS app tile scrolls through headlines.



No. For that you touch the tile and open the app.



Yes, if someone writes the app that way. I don't know of one that does it, but I don't see any barrier in principle.



No, but see above.



I don't have much experience with widgets, but the idea of live tiles isn't to present a compact version of an app but to present the user with the most recent updates or changes. I really don't think it's revolutionary, but it's done well in WP, in my opinion. Users who don't like a home screen full of tiles can have as few as they like. Wallpaper is visible on the lock screen.

Thanks for answering my questions.

Widgets do the same thing, show the most recent updates and changes (for example, my pulse widget shows all the recent articles of my feed, but I can scroll through it to older ones without opening the app). You can also have them do so much more. They offer more functionality.

So basically WP7 is like the iPhone before iOS 4. Wallpapers shown on the lockscreen. That's nice that you can remove tiles as well. At least you aren't forced to keep them there like iOS.

[Blacklac]

I didn't read this and I'm not about to, but the thread title if funny because supposedly Verizon wasn't picking up any WP's because they weren't LTE. (They currently have 1 older Mango device, and THATS IT.) Now, WP has I think 2 LTE phones announced and Verizon still isn't picking them up, unless news has changed in the last month or so on that.

Verizon already has more BB phones than WP. Looks like it could be a while before that changes too.

Its so funny that people here post whatever story they find to make it look like BB is going to fall further and further. Go read WPCentral and see how good that platform is doing. They would love RIM's marketshare. I have a WP too.

[Laura Knotek]

I didn't read this and I'm not about to, but the thread title if funny because supposedly Verizon wasn't picking up any WP's because they weren't LTE. (They currently have 1 older Mango device, and THATS IT.) Now, WP has I think 2 LTE phones announced and Verizon still isn't picking them up, unless news has changed in the last month or so on that.

Verizon already has more BB phones than WP. Looks like it could be a while before that changes too.

Its so funny that people here post whatever story they find to make it look like BB is going to fall further and further. Go read WPCentral and see how good that platform is doing. They would love RIM's marketshare. I have a WP too.

I believe you just hit the nail on the head. I recall an article earlier this year where VZW stated that all new smartphones needed to be LTE capable.

Here is the article.

Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express

[ccbs]

I didn't read this and I'm not about to, but the thread title if funny because supposedly Verizon wasn't picking up any WP's because they weren't LTE. (They currently have 1 older Mango device, and THATS IT.) Now, WP has I think 2 LTE phones announced and Verizon still isn't picking them up, unless news has changed in the last month or so on that.

Verizon already has more BB phones than WP. Looks like it could be a while before that changes too.

Its so funny that people here post whatever story they find to make it look like BB is going to fall further and further. Go read WPCentral and see how good that platform is doing. They would love RIM's marketshare. I have a WP too.

I know, how could Verizon CFO knows more about Verizon's future plan on supporting WP than forum users on WPCentral? That surely can't happen. It must be that he was joking out of his in a financial conference call. /s
In fact, Verizon singlehandedly put Android on the map with their full blast Droid marketing event. Large corporation like Verizon planned their marketing budget at least a few quarters ahead. What this likely confirm is that they might start marketing campaign on WP to coincide with Microsoft's launch of WP8(Apollo). The marketing budget of Verizon together with that of Microsoft + Nokia could be well over a billion dollar. Intel is planning few hundred millions of marketing on Ultrabook with Windows 8 on the desktop front. It is gonna be high budget all-out marketing campaign. RIMM unfortunately will be also launching their new mobile OS and phone in similar timeframe. RIMM might be huge but given the deteriorating revenue, they surely can't afford to outspend them in marketing budget. Thus, their new message and marketing campaign will not be as standing out as it needed to be. In the channel front, Verizon stores will start to push WP more than BB and RIMM has to find ways to push their new handset and be less dependent on carriers. This is what RIMM had historically been weak in. The lack of carrier support in the channel is the key killer for RIMM since they have no other significant sale channel.

I don't care either way since I think the market will figure out which players survive and thrive, and which failed and left. It is interesting to see how thing unfold.

[sf49ers]

I know, how could Verizon CFO knows more about Verizon's future plan on supporting WP than forum users on WPCentral? That surely can't happen. It must be that he was joking out of his in a financial conference call. /s
In fact, Verizon singlehandedly put Android on the map with their full blast Droid marketing event. Large corporation like Verizon planned their marketing budget at least a few quarters ahead. What this likely confirm is that they might start marketing campaign on WP to coincide with Microsoft's launch of WP8(Apollo). The marketing budget of Verizon together with that of Microsoft + Nokia could be well over a billion dollar. Intel is planning few hundred millions of marketing on Ultrabook with Windows 8 on the desktop front. It is gonna be high budget all-out marketing campaign. RIMM unfortunately will be also launching their new mobile OS and phone in similar timeframe. RIMM might be huge but given the deteriorating revenue, they surely can't afford to outspend them in marketing budget. Thus, their new message and marketing campaign will not be as standing out as it needed to be. In the channel front, Verizon stores will start to push WP more than BB and RIMM has to find ways to push their new handset and be less dependent on carriers. This is what RIMM had historically been weak in. The lack of carrier support in the channel is the key killer for RIMM since they have no other significant sale channel.

I don't care either way since I think the market will figure out which players survive and thrive, and which failed and left. It is interesting to see how thing unfold.

do you even know how much is a $1 billion worth? or how much it is worth for a marketing campaign? There are 55 million phone users in the US and nearly 15-20 million on Verizon, even by conservative estimates if WP7 gains 10% market share on Verizon then with $1 billion marketing budget they will end up losing money than gaining anything.

Verizon spent $100 million on Android marketing campaign when it launched droid campaign and ATT's budget for Lumia 900 is about the same. By industry standards $100 million is the highest marketing spending so far by any carrier for any phone and RIM is definitely in a position to negotiate with the carriers or even throw that much money at them for a blistering marketing campaign and what they just need is hero device to show off and once they have it you will see RIM throwing money at everything namely marketing, developers, acquitions, promotions etc

[avt123]

do you even know how much is a $1 billion worth? or how much it is worth for a marketing campaign? There are 55 million phone users in the US and nearly 15-20 million on Verizon, even by conservative estimates if WP7 gains 10% market share on Verizon then with $1 billion marketing budget they will end up losing money than gaining anything.

Verizon spent $100 million on Android marketing campaign when it launched droid campaign and ATT's budget for Lumia 900 is about the same. By industry standards $100 million is the highest marketing spending so far by any carrier for any phone and RIM is definitely in a position to negotiate with the carriers or even throw that much money at them for a blistering marketing campaign and what they just need is hero device to show off and once they have it you will see RIM throwing money at everything namely marketing, developers, acquitions, promotions etc

Those are some interesting numbers you used (made up) right there...

[ccbs]

do you even know how much is a $1 billion worth? or how much it is worth for a marketing campaign? There are 55 million phone users in the US and nearly 15-20 million on Verizon, even by conservative estimates if WP7 gains 10% market share on Verizon then with $1 billion marketing budget they will end up losing money than gaining anything.

Verizon spent $100 million on Android marketing campaign when it launched droid campaign and ATT's budget for Lumia 900 is about the same. By industry standards $100 million is the highest marketing spending so far by any carrier for any phone and RIM is definitely in a position to negotiate with the carriers or even throw that much money at them for a blistering marketing campaign and what they just need is hero device to show off and once they have it you will see RIM throwing money at everything namely marketing, developers, acquitions, promotions etc

I am saying the marketing budget for WP from all the partners, that include Verizon, Microsoft, Nokia as key members and some lesser partners that over the launch period could total 1 billion. I agree it might be less, but it is definitely not too far fetched.

If you need some reminder of how much Microsoft spend last time to jump start WP7 and Kinect, by itself not with bunch of partners.
Microsoft to spend one billion dollars advertising Kinect and Windows Phone 7 -- Engadget

This is how much Nokia spend:
http://www.cnet.com/8301-17918_1-20078843-85/rumor-nokia-spending-$127m-marketing-windows-phone/

This is how much Intel said they're gonna go big on ultrabook marketing, in addition to the 300 Million they threw to Taiwanese hardware OEM partners. iOnApple: Intel spending hundreds of millions of dollars on new Ultrabook marketing campaign

This is most relevant.
Microsoft to spend $200 million in Windows Phone marketing for 2012 | WinBeta

What I don't get is how RIMM is in a position to have any leverage to negotiate for deal with the carriers. Basically, carriers don't need RIMM to continue to convert phone users to smartphone users, but the reverse certainly isn't true. Carries has RIMM by the balls and they know it.
BBOS 10 is gonna be launching in the US as the high-end device for at least the first quarter. The well-celebrated oversea success of RIMM in this forum will be irrelevant since it is the high end market that BBOS 10 is going after. BBOS 10's success, or lack thereof, will determine RIMM future. Thorstein will be forced to preserve shareholder value if the phones don't go really well in the six months.

[Laura Knotek]

Those are some interesting numbers you used (made up) right there...

Here are the real numbers, per Verizon's quarterly report.

93.0 million total retail customers; 88.0 million total retail postpaid customers.

[avt123]

Here are the real numbers, per Verizon's quarterly report.

Lol. Much more accurate.

[Economist101]

Lol. Much more accurate.

The commenter wasn't far off. . . Just 40 million off of a legit figure of around 95 million.

[avt123]

The commenter wasn't far off. . . Just 40 million off of a legit figure of around 95 million.

That's true. Not too bad if you forget about the part where the poster says the entire US.