RIM Reveals It invested $1.4 billion on R&D

**lc474** · 11-02-2011, 06:37 PM

I would love to know what they spent on marketing...

According to mobilesyrup, RIM invested $1.4 billion on R&D in 2010, leading all Canadian companies in this expense. BCE, Ericson Canada, Telus, and Rogers were high on the list.

RIM shares closed down at yet another 52-week low today on Toronto Markets. Breaking $20 barriers, the stock has no upside, unless rumors surface again of yet another takeover story.

This begs the question: If RIM spent so much in R&D, why are the blackberry phones still buggy, why is Playbook OS 2.0 delayed until February 2012, and how much more costs will there be for BBX?

RIM's R&D expense is awfully high, and margins are declining. These are not bullish points for RIM, even if RIM shares trade at a P/E in the 4-range.

RIM closed in Toronto at US $18.91

**kevinnugent** · 11-02-2011, 06:42 PM

And where did the $1.5BN cash go that they burnt through last QTR? R&D?

**Economist101** · 11-02-2011, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by kevinnugent

And where did the $1.5BN cash go that they burnt through last QTR? R&D?

The Nortel patent bid and some other things.

**lnichols** · 11-02-2011, 07:16 PM

I'm disgusted by how much they spend compared to the competition over the past few years seeing as how they hadn't made any big steps till the OS7 phones. They spend almost as much as Apple does for everything. Yeah there is the Playbook, but it wasn't finished and they can't get the features the tablet market demands integrated. Yet another reason why heads at the top should roll.

**supraking** · 11-02-2011, 09:58 PM

"why are the blackberry phones still buggy"

Um, my phone works great. Buggy?

And realize that $1.4 billion is a LOT of money for RIM. Big things are coming. "For the nine months ended June 25, Apple's R&D spending was $1.78 billion, or 2.2 percent of sales."

**Economist101** · 11-02-2011, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by supraking

"why are the blackberry phones still buggy"

Um, my phone works great. Buggy?

And realize that $1.4 billion is a LOT of money for RIM. Big things are coming. "For the nine months ended June 25, Apple's R&D spending was $1.78 billion, or 2.2 percent of sales."

These numbers make RIM look woefully inefficient.

**Deathcommand** · 11-02-2011, 10:35 PM

You could say that the money they use..
*Puts on sunglasses
Put's their research..
*Turns toward camera.
In Motion.

CHYYEAAAAHHHH

No really though. Come on RIM. Efficiency is everything.

**mithrazor** · 11-02-2011, 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by JD914

1.4 billion gone and RIM has absolutely nothing to show for it.

Do buying out companies go into this 1.4 billion figure? Because they bought out quite a few companies.

I know QNX-related things must have taken a big chunk of that 1.4 billion. Dealing with operating systems is huge business. A lot of money and time has to be put into it.

Especially when developing an operating system.

**taylortbb** · 11-03-2011, 12:14 AM

The $1.4 billion includes most of the development costs for BlackBerry OS 6, a big chunk of BlackBerry OS 7, and much of PlayBook OS/BBX. Plus the R&D costs for their hardware. I think given that they're developing a new OS and actively upgrading a current OS it's actually quite a reasonable spend. Apple didn't overhaul iOS in 2010, all we got was iOS 4 which didn't have many new features compared to iOS 3, so of course they spent less. Yes, Apple has other products, but R&D costs for full computers are generally lower as they're more standardised.

Developing a brand new platform from the ground up (QNX is just a kernel, not a full mobile OS) takes a lot of resources. Especially when you have to integrate it with significant legacy infrastructure. If RIM completely cut ties with their legacy infrastructure people would complain even more, and with good reason, image if people on BBX phones couldn't add people on BBOS to BBM.

**houshinto#IM** · 11-03-2011, 12:30 AM

Originally Posted by taylortbb

The $1.4 billion includes most of the development costs for BlackBerry OS 6, a big chunk of BlackBerry OS 7, and much of PlayBook OS/BBX. Plus the R&D costs for their hardware. I think given that they're developing a new OS and actively upgrading a current OS it's actually quite a reasonable spend. Apple didn't overhaul iOS in 2010, all we got was iOS 4 which didn't have many new features compared to iOS 3, so of course they spent less. Yes, Apple has other products, but R&D costs for full computers are generally lower as they're more standardised.

Developing a brand new platform from the ground up (QNX is just a kernel, not a full mobile OS) takes a lot of resources. Especially when you have to integrate it with significant legacy infrastructure. If RIM completely cut ties with their legacy infrastructure people would complain even more, and with good reason, image if people on BBX phones couldn't add people on BBOS to BBM.

Agreed!

People may want to take the knee-**** reaction and say, "Hey, where's the end result products that came from all this spending?" But that just shows they have no idea what RIM has been trying to do these last few years, even if it wasn't executed the well. They're almost there though.

Really the birth of BBX has given RIM some massive labour pains. The cost alone is one of them.

**Superfly_FR** · 11-03-2011, 03:20 AM

Originally Posted by lc474

I would love to know what they spent on marketing...

According to mobilesyrup, RIM invested $1.4 billion on R&D in 2010, leading all Canadian companies in this expense. BCE, Ericson Canada, Telus, and Rogers were high on the list.

RIM shares closed down at yet another 52-week low today on Toronto Markets. Breaking $20 barriers, the stock has no upside, unless rumors surface again of yet another takeover story.

This begs the question: If RIM spent so much in R&D, why are the blackberry phones still buggy, why is Playbook OS 2.0 delayed until February 2012, and how much more costs will there be for BBX?

RIM's R&D expense is awfully high, and margins are declining. These are not bullish points for RIM, even if RIM shares trade at a P/E in the 4-range.

RIM closed in Toronto at US $18.91

It may be due to my bad comprehension of English, but isn't this mixing carrots and pineapples (dammit I wanted to avoid comparing Eve's fruit and it come again ...) ?
As far I read correctly, there are two distinct investments :
- External growth, by acquiring companies
- Internal costs, for development
Since external growth will provide new technology ownership, it's likely less expensive than building them from scratch ... But embedding those techs and people within an industrial process (+ 2010 security certification round) is not a two days job ...

**graxyq** · 11-03-2011, 03:31 AM

Valid points!!

Sadly, if RIM were to spend less on research compared to their competition, there will still be somebody who finds fault with that..

**Superfly_FR** · 11-03-2011, 03:39 AM

Originally Posted by graxyq

Valid points!!

Sadly, if RIM were to spend less on research compared to their competition, there will still be somebody who finds fault with that..

(no more thanks button, so : thanks

)
I don't have any facts regarding how much R&B apple spent over the iPhone and iPad projects ... but I'll wonder its huge. People have to understand 2010 was day 0 for RIM, while they started a new "companion logic*" strategy, based on a brand new OS.

* which is not limited to PB+Phone, please keep this in mind ...

**Pete6#WP** · 11-03-2011, 04:06 AM

Research is an odd beast. Even with a defined goal like the Large Hadron Colider ate CERN, research can lead you to some surprising conclusions and indeed down some blind alleys.

Often there is not a single outcome either. The main thing about research is that it leads to understanding. Even then sometimes a researcher is forced to say "I have not failed, I have simply found 10,000 ways that it does not work."

In RIM's case, the $1.4B may very well have been partially spent on understanding QNX and how to make it into a great phone and tablet OS. Money must have been spent too on integrating the TAT user iterface.

Hardware selection and testing and networking, security and patent integration and protection must also pay their parts in the final bill.

Having sprung to RIM's defense, I also agree with other posters that for all that money, I would expect some tangible results as well. Where are the newly researched products? Where is the market "leapfrog" we were promised?

$1.4B is a lot of bread to spend for no new products.

**lnichols** · 11-03-2011, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by graxyq

Valid points!!

Sadly, if RIM were to spend less on research compared to their competition, there will still be somebody who finds fault with that..

I'm find with how much they spent, I'm not fine with the efficiency and ROI on the money spent. For that much money we shouldn't have seen the OS7 devices delayed (and we know the carriers aren't to blame for the holdup as they all started coming out the same time), we shouldn't be waiting 10+ months for Native e-mail and PIM on the Playbook, the Blackberry TV should be out. RIM needs to deliver products with this R&D, not vaporware they continue to show off at DevCon and BBW.

**Superfly_FR** · 11-03-2011, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by lnichols

I'm find with how much they spent, I'm not fine with the efficiency and ROI on the money spent. For that much money we shouldn't have seen the OS7 devices delayed (and we know the carriers aren't to blame for the holdup as they all started coming out the same time), we shouldn't be waiting 10+ months for Native e-mail and PIM on the Playbook, the Blackberry TV should be out. RIM needs to deliver products with this R&D, not vaporware they continue to show off at DevCon and BBW.

Let's scale ?
I bet 1.4 billion is not for a bi-annual plan ...
But I agree they failed to deliver.
Episode 1 : RIM fails.
Episode 2 : ?
Episode 3 : ?
....

**samab** · 11-03-2011, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by lnichols

I'm find with how much they spent, I'm not fine with the efficiency and ROI on the money spent. For that much money we shouldn't have seen the OS7 devices delayed (and we know the carriers aren't to blame for the holdup as they all started coming out the same time), we shouldn't be waiting 10+ months for Native e-mail and PIM on the Playbook, the Blackberry TV should be out. RIM needs to deliver products with this R&D, not vaporware they continue to show off at DevCon and BBW.

There are many reasons why R&D spending is high and there are many reasons why products are delayed --- some don't overlap.

BB7 handsets were delayed because RIM initially stuck with Marvell --- but Marvell couldn't really deliver their CPU's with the new core (like Qualcomm, Marvell makes their own core and not use the Cortex A8/A9 cores). Then RIM went with Qualcomm chips and had to start all over again.

R&D spending is high because the various versions of BBOS are like silos and they don't really shared much in common. R&D spending is high because Java has been stagnant for years --- and RIM spent a lot of money souping up a old civic. R&D spending will be a lot lower after the BBX transition because everything will run by a single OS and they are no longer needing to soup up an old civic.

Native email and PIM have nothing to do with R&D spending and delays are inevitable. It is a major server re-architecture exercise --- and probably run by a very small team.

**Shlooky** · 11-03-2011, 04:38 PM

The reason I heard why they can't implement e-mail and calendar natively on the Playbook is because they can't figure out how one user can access the same account from two different devices.
It's more of a security issue, and their application servers are old. Which is probably the reason why their servers went down that brought every BBM user down when they tried to upgrade them (me thinks)

**rollingrock1988** · 11-03-2011, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by Shlooky

The reason I heard why they can't implement e-mail and calendar natively on the Playbook is because they can't figure out how one user can access the same account from two different devices.
It's more of a security issue, and their application servers are old. Which is probably the reason why their servers went down that brought every BBM user down when they tried to upgrade them (me thinks)

I bet you could use an email address and/or a phone number. But hey, I guess that's far too simple for them to comprehend.

**dentynefire** · 11-03-2011, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by Shlooky

The reason I heard why they can't implement e-mail and calendar natively on the Playbook is because they can't figure out how one user can access the same account from two different devices.
It's more of a security issue, and their application servers are old. Which is probably the reason why their servers went down that brought every BBM user down when they tried to upgrade them (me thinks)

Well once you figure it out let us know.

**samab** · 11-03-2011, 04:50 PM

R&D is going to be higher than the rest of the other platforms --- simply because RIM has to do a lot of stuff by themselves. RIM has to write the Facebook app by themselves vs. Facebook writing the Facebook app for the ios platform. RIM has to port the AIR/Flash Player by themselves vs. Adobe ports them to the Android platform.

Repeat that over and over --- and you will see higher R&D spending in the future.

**rollingrock1988** · 11-03-2011, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by samab

R&D is going to be higher than the rest of the other platforms --- simply because RIM has to do a lot of stuff by themselves. RIM has to write the Facebook app by themselves vs. Facebook writing the Facebook app for the ios platform. RIM has to port the AIR/Flash Player by themselves vs. Adobe ports them to the Android platform.

Repeat that over and over --- and you will see higher R&D spending in the future.

With QNX I thought we would see the ability for other companies to start writing apps since it uses a microkernel.

**melb_me** · 11-03-2011, 04:59 PM

They have given us something new. The Playbook. Some ignorant people may laugh but NOBODY has an operating system like this. And no the Playbook is not going to be discontinued because it IS the new platform all the new phones will run on. They are using it to test and develop the new OS. For Apple or Android to switch to a true multitasking OS is almost an insurmountable task. They have to chuck everything and start over......get it. BTW the introduction of the new phones for RIM is going to be very painful. Let's hope they can survive it caus' it's going to be truly groundbreaking. Could this be why they don't seem to care about apps currently? They all need to be redone for the new OS.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk

**louzer** · 11-03-2011, 05:06 PM

Also, keep in mind that everyone is talking about phone/tablet R&D. They've also been making major changes behind the scenes on the server side. There's a new BIS and many enhancements/changes to BES as well as a new management console and resource kit which all look quite interesting.

**samab** · 11-03-2011, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by RollingRock1988

With QNX I thought we would see the ability for other companies to start writing apps since it uses a microkernel.

Sure it's easier to write apps now --- anything is better than writing with those ancient javame stuff.

But we are talking about eyeballs, market share and time schedules. Adobe is going to continue to work on adobe flash player on the android platform. Adobe is going to continue to work on tools for AIR developers to recompile their codes so that those AIR apps can run on the ios platform.

RIM has to do the port themselves.