- 11-16-2012, 04:13 PM #26
Outsourcing is a fact of life, get used to it
It is sad to see North American jobs leave for India and China, but the reality is that with competition, companies have to economize on their costs wherever they can. If they can get financial skills that are 25% less effective at 50% of the price, they have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to do so. Having been to India 5 times, I can safely say that the skills aren't 25% worse either. They are degree junkies and are a lot more motivated than many North American resources. Yes, we've all heard lots of stories (and experienced) stories with the helpless desks being unable to solve issues but this is as much of an issue of moving support to a centralized help desk from onsite people coming to your desk than it is where the desk is. The net is, that the financial functions are back office, don't impact customers and RIM needs to slash costs. I'm glad to see they've done this.
As for those lost North American jobs, we have to focus on things that can't easily be done by a $20/hour Indian working over a high speed internet connection. That's where the high paying jobs will be. As for the Indians... they have kicked nearly 500M people into the middle class in the last 10 years. Those folks are now all buying smartphones, cars, motorcycles, TV's, etc. That's a huge new market IF we are competitive. You can't sit behind tariffs these days... the world is moving to free trade. Get used to it and adapt.
- 11-17-2012, 09:52 PM #28
- 11-17-2012, 10:24 PM #29
RIM outsourcing Canadian jobs
Companies in N A are insulting our intelligence by stating that they are reducing the size of their products to keep from raising prices. ( Same price, smaller product is really a price increase!!! ) Employees are keeping their jobs and the public ( consumers ) are on the losing end. Just something to think about.....
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- CrackBerry Addict
11-18-2012, 12:14 AM #30
- 691 Posts
Re: RIM outsourcing Canadian jobs
It's called rationalization. And every business worldwide do this. It's all about money and making more profit. Nothing more or less.sent from anywhere
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- 11-18-2012, 12:16 AM #31
Re: RIM outsourcing Canadian jobs
but seriously I was on the line to get Nexus 7. This just was the push I needed.
Why to kill myself with playbook if I can just get it all android.
again I am upset and not 100% rational at this point.
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- 11-18-2012, 12:28 AM #32
Pfizer tried this with their IT. Actually, more than once thanks to their revolving door CEO "policy".
Anyway. Two big problems. India:
1) Is many time zones away. Meetings are a PITA because of this
2) There is a language barrier. DUH ..... It's not as simple as providing "requirements".
3) Not sure if Accounting will have the same problem as IT, but India, while cheap ... has some crappy developers. Probably has second rate accountants also.
Thorsten is just pulling another page out of the CEO playbook. Oh, there are companies that provide knowledge sharing for execs. That's how things like outsourcing start. One guy tries it and it works. Everyone tries that guy's tool as hammer for different nails. Sounds like Thorsten is in that group. Sad.
- 11-18-2012, 03:07 AM #35
- 11-18-2012, 09:17 AM #37
Thorsten Heins (or Thor to those that apparently know him well on these boards) had to cut costs TO SURVIVE. This isn't rocket science thinking. Laying off employees and outsourcing to lower paying countries is not new. It is part of RIMs survival plan and a stated objective - to cut costs by $1bn by the end of fiscal year 2013. Selling the company planes isn't going to do that.
Apparently he is doing a good job at it. And it you want RIM to survive (and then thrive when BB 10 comes out) you probably have to accept it.
And many companies can deal with time zone issues. It is part of a global economy. Video conferencing is a wonderful thing. Face to face meetings 1-2 times per year go a long way. I just got back from India where I met with the teams we've outsourced. And they are doing what we ask them to do. At a fraction of what we could afford to pay in North America.
- CrackBerry Genius of Geniuses
11-18-2012, 09:46 AM #38
- 65,420 Posts
Outsourcing jobs is a reality in today's global market. Wages is one of the most expensive cost of operating a business. One cannot just pick on a company like RIM without going through other companies that the consumers patronage. It's the balance of supply and demand. Ultimately as a consumer you have to decide what's morally acceptable and what's not. You cannot judge others without auditing your own entire consumption of products you used and owned. Chances are a very high percentage of those products were outsourced. Ideally, you want to bring the rest of the world living standard at par with the G9 countries, but we know that's not a possibility.
- 11-18-2012, 10:01 AM #39
You are right - and wrong. At this moment there are just under 300M in the middle class in India but in the next 10 years it is expected to grow to 547M (according toNational Council for Applied Economic Research's (NCAER) Centre for Macro Consumer Research. You are wrong in assuming it is personal income that defines the middle class - it isn't as Indians are very family oriented so it is household income which defines it. Everyone in the family benefits from a strong breadwinner. It is currently uses 'household income' as the criterion, a family with an annual income between Rs 3.4 lakh to Rs 17 lakh (at 2009-10 price levels). A lakh is 100,000 Rupees which is about $1800. The family income is then about $6K-$30K/yr in Canadian dollars. You can buy a lot with that amount of money in India... A new Tata car can be bought for $2K.
- 11-18-2012, 10:14 AM #40
- 11-18-2012, 10:41 AM #41
Just own up to the mistake, don't try to spin it into Roozilla was "right AND wrong".
- 11-18-2012, 11:09 AM #42
Let's assume that BB10 will be a success.. but not immediate. They need to watch every penny in order to ensure FULLY getting back into the game. All future development products (BB10 "N-series", PB v2, PB 10", etc.) following BB10 'L-series' require investment funds which are acquired by RIM's profits. I'm an investor and Canadian.. but even I see that there is no choice for RIM at this stage. Once they're back on their feet again .. then discussions can recommence on whether outsourcing to lower cost countries is ethical or not.
It's survival right now for RIM so they need to do whatever is required to prepare and protect themselves .. right now...
- CrackBerry Master
11-18-2012, 11:41 AM #43
- 1,291 Posts
My 9700 was made in Mexico. Not sure where my 9900 and 9790 are made as I can't be bothered to look but I'm pretty sure they're not made in Canada either. Not sure, but I'm pretty convinced that is what you call out sourcing and RIM's been doing it for a while.
If you're really that bothered by it, sell your stock. Problem solved.
- 11-18-2012, 06:03 PM #46
Perhaps the concept of PPP would explain what's going on a bit better. Purchasing power parity is more or less, the how much purchasing power one has in a different country. The standard PPP has been normalized to USD in most measurements. The PPP for India is about 2.6, meaning that $1 spent in India, is about equivalent to spending $2.60 in the US, thus $1400 in India is equivalent to about $3700 in the US. Basically, it means cost of living is cheaper by almost a third in India compared to the US. Even accounting for PPP of about $3700, the PPP for a family of 6 in India would be less than $24000. Would a family of 6 making $24000 a year be considered middle class in the US or Canada? I suggest they would quality for some type of aid.
As Richardat noted, the estimates of the Indian middle class are all over, but for certain, it's not 500M, and 300M is more than likely a fantasy. I concede 50M might be a little low for a population of 1.2B and $1400 per capita GDP, but I suspect the true number is a fraction of 300M or 500M because as I explained earlier, there just isn't enough money to redistribute to get to 500M or even 300M. India is 140th in the world in per capita GDP, there's no getting around that fact.
- CrackBerry Addict
11-18-2012, 10:56 PM #47
- 740 Posts
I hate to say this but in the end it's a business eh. Plus rim is in no situation to keep position in house, cutting a billion $ is no easy task eh. I just hope once rim get there feet off the ground they will bring back the positions back to CanadaBe Proud
BlackBerry by choice
- 11-19-2012, 12:21 AM #48
RIM outsourcing Canadian jobs
Wow! Talk about short sighted reasoning here. Those that feel this is a good thing, are only concerned about their pocket book TODAY but TOMORROW it will catch up to all of us. We are cutting our own throats! We're having to compete globally and we CAN'T.
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- CrackBerry Abuser
11-19-2012, 06:08 AM #50
- 277 Posts
Somebody needs to take some basic Micro and Macro courses.
First i'd suggest reading "That Used to Be Us" to fully grasp globalization and what to expect in the future.
Welcome to the world of high skilled, low wage labor. People across the U.S do not understand it either.
To be middle class in the future, folks will need more advanced skills and educations than was required over the last few decades and do jobs that can't be done by someone who is willing to do it for less from a BRIC country.
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