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  1. GTiLeo's Avatar
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    #76  

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeo007 View Post
    Heck, even I've been impressed with the change in RIM's developer relations, and RIM has not done much to impress me lately.
    lol it is pretty impressive, but i don't get is what RIM has to do to impress people more then what they have done since Heins has taken over. they've rebuilt their whole company, their whole stategy and their whole outlook, but in some ways i agree as they haven't really released anything new and impressive in a while BB10 will hopefully change that for the sack of RIM and their supporters
  2. howarmat's Avatar

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    #77  

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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkySunshine View Post
    I'm sorry but have you not heard of the iPhone and the iPad? Variations released months apart and sell in the tens of millions. Check the news.
    thats not 2 iphones, that is 2 devices that have 2 different purposes. His point is true, most people don't buy 2 phones within a couple months of each other.
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  3. Knightcrawler's Avatar
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    #78  

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    isn't apple's release schedule also similar, with a fall and a spring launch? Not saying that's a smart strategy for Rim, just curious.

    edit: err, to be more precise, im talking phone releases ie: 4 > 4s
  4. Roo Zilla's Avatar
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    #79  

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    Quote Originally Posted by GTiLeo View Post
    i know it could run but they claimed they wouldn't because QNX needed a dual core CPU, which is what i was saying i wonder what the curve will have if they opted for a single core OS7 users will be pretty ticked off as they were told their devices couldn't be upgraded because they required a dual core if they when for a dual core, its relitively higher end if its similar to what is offered in the L series, not many will notice a difference in GPU but will notice GHz
    What I'm saying is, the statement that "QNX needed a dual core CPU" is BS. It doesn't. QNX obviously runs fine in embedded systems, very few, is any, of those run dual core CPUs. They made a choice for whatever reason, but saying that a dual core CPU is a requirement is simply not true.
  5. Nindia's Avatar
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    #80  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knightcrawler View Post
    isn't apple's release schedule also similar, with a fall and a spring launch? Not saying that's a smart strategy for Rim, just curious.

    edit: err, to be more precise, im talking phone releases ie: 4 > 4s

    I personally wish RIM launched their devices alongside Apple's timeline.

    Berry users are berry users at the end of the day in my opinion. Especially at this point, people who have stuck with RIM are here because they want to be. It would be nice to have a fresh new device when everyone else is carrying the latest and greatest from their manufacturer/OS of choice.
  6. omniusovermind's Avatar
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    #81  

    Default Re: Interesting tweet from Vivek about the hardware

    Quote Originally Posted by dragonx6 View Post
    It's cute what people think 3rd world countries are like. People need to leave their first world bubble.
    Um hello, they're the places where people put umbrellas in my drink when I'm on my vacay.
    Carrier controlled updates is the worst smartphone spec of them all
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  7. sam_b77's Avatar
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    #82  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roo Zilla View Post
    That's because of a low Gini index, and low per capita GDP. Basically, people who can afford to buy cars, can buy whatever they want, but there's very few, so the number of cars per capita is very low. In the US, there's about 800 motor vehicles per 1000 people. In India, there's 20 per 1000 people. It's similar in China where I am with a higher Gini index. There's about 170 motor vehicles per 1000. You see a much higher proportion of BMW, Audi, and Mercedes in China than in the US, but also a much lower number of cars. Again, people who can afford cars can buy whatever they want, but the number of people who can afford cars is very low compared to countries like the US.
    I understand your points but you are wrong on one point.....China's automobile market overtook the American market last year. More passenger vehicles were sold in China than in USA. India too is slated to overtake the American market by 2020. You're right about the number of people per 1000 but with a population of a billion people even 20%means a bigger population than America's.
    Either which way, the assertion of kevinugent regarding the car analogy and third world countries has no place in this discussion. There are enough people in India and China who can afford high end devices to make it a lucrative market.
    I would love to see how many people in USA can afford a $800 phone if the carriers withdraw their subsidy.
    Through the Years :2001 Ericsson T29s> Sony Z5> Sony Z7> SE Z600>Moto A760> RAZR V3>Razr V3i>BB 8800>BB 9500 >BB 9800>Bold 9900..RIM Returns with a bang

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  8. Roo Zilla's Avatar
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    #83  

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    Quote Originally Posted by sam_b77 View Post
    I understand your points but you are wrong on one point.....China's automobile market overtook the American market last year. More passenger vehicles were sold in China than in USA. India too is slated to overtake the American market by 2020. You're right about the number of people per 1000 but with a population of a billion people even 20%means a bigger population than America's.
    Either which way, the assertion of kevinugent regarding the car analogy and third world countries has no place in this discussion. There are enough people in India and China who can afford high end devices to make it a lucrative market.
    I would love to see how many people in USA can afford a $800 phone if the carriers withdraw their subsidy.
    Yes, China is the world's largest auto market as of 2009, due to the big recession. With about 4X the US population, even with a lower number of cars per thousand, a greater number of total cars are sold. I purposefully did not mention total number of cars, but rather the number per 1000 to illustrate that a car is not a commonly owned item in India or China for that matter. I find the 2020 target for India to overtake the US in cars sold to be a bit optimistic. Mainly because Gini Index is pretty low in India and India has never historically had growth rates in excess of 6%. The US car market is about 15 million per year. In India it's about 3 million per year. Increasing sales by 5X in 8 years..... not likely. This isn't smartphones, it's cars.

    My assertion was that a higher proportion of cars sold in places like China and India tend to be "luxury" brands, compared to more developed countries. The reason being, that the majority of people with sufficient income to afford a car, can buy whatever car they want. Thus, a lower proportion of Hondas and Toyotas are sold compared to more developed countries with higher per capita GDP. In the US, there's almost one motor vehicle per person, the vast majority being mid-range cars and pick-up trucks, because almost everybody can afford one (also easy financing plays a part), but the people who can afford high end Mercedes class cars are still a small minority. In India, the people who can afford Mercedes class cars are also a small minority, but so are the people who can afford cars at all, and they're basically the same people.

    The same happens in China, but because it has a significantly higher per capita GDP, the number of cars is higher. The higher Gini index in China also plays a part, bad income distribution means a larger upper class. Put those together and you basically have about 10% of Chinese having very high income and everybody else getting by on $500 a month.

    I do however, agree with your assertion that the majority of people living in NA or Western Europe have no idea what the situation is like in emerging markets, especially places like India and China.
  9. timmy t's Avatar
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    #84  

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    If they wait long enough, the Aristo will not be a flagship device. Better get it out as soon as possible.
  10. timmy t's Avatar
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    #85  

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    Quote Originally Posted by howarmat View Post
    Its going to be a premium price and the screen is much bigger than the L series. it will be the size of many current androids. Many people on here comment all the time they dont like big large screens that androids are known for. The L series is actually a larger device than it should be IMO. They need to kill off the bezel as much as they can.
    How do you have gestures without the bezel?
  11. GTiLeo's Avatar
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    #86  

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    Quote Originally Posted by timmy t View Post
    How do you have gestures without the bezel?
    he means the top and bottom bezel but then it would give you an awkward hand placement making typing and gestures pretty awkward. its the same reason why Androids and iPhones still have the buttons at the bottom, so it pushes the screen that much higher for a better typing experience, since BB10 has no buttons it simple has to have an empty space
  12. timmy t's Avatar
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    #87  

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    Remember, you can have a 4 cylinder car that runs better than an 8 cylinder car if it is designed properly. Horsepower is not the only thing to consider when deciding what vehicle, or smartphone is faster.
  13. annon91221's Avatar
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    #88  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roo Zilla View Post
    That's because of a low Gini index, and low per capita GDP. Basically, people who can afford to buy cars, can buy whatever they want, but there's very few, so the number of cars per capita is very low. In the US, there's about 800 motor vehicles per 1000 people. In India, there's 20 per 1000 people. It's similar in China where I am with a higher Gini index. There's about 170 motor vehicles per 1000. You see a much higher proportion of BMW, Audi, and Mercedes in China than in the US, but also a much lower number of cars. Again, people who can afford cars can buy whatever they want, but the number of people who can afford cars is very low compared to countries like the US.
    We can get into statistics of cars but the fact of the matter is that emerging economies have expanding middle class. People that cant afford a car yet can afford phones, usually multiple phone for different occasions. You see the fallacy in your argument here!!! What cars are for developed countries is what phones are for developing countries...i.e a symbol of vanity...
  14. GTiLeo's Avatar
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    #89  

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    Quote Originally Posted by timmy t View Post
    Remember, you can have a 4 cylinder car that runs better than an 8 cylinder car if it is designed properly. Horsepower is not the only thing to consider when deciding what vehicle, or smartphone is faster.
    lol no
  15. Roo Zilla's Avatar
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    #90  

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    Quote Originally Posted by annon91221 View Post
    We can get into statistics of cars but the fact of the matter is that emerging economies have expanding middle class. People that cant afford a car yet can afford phones, usually multiple phone for different occasions. You see the fallacy in your argument here!!! What cars are for developed countries is what phones are for developing countries...i.e a symbol of vanity...
    So you're saying that instead of buying cars, people are instead buying phones. Here's the problem with that argument. In developed markets like the US, smartphone penetration is over 50%. In India it's like 2%. Yes, the middle class is expanding in India, but the middle class in India makes like $2K per year per capita. Low Gini index means that's a fairly accurate estimate of middle class income. At that income level a $600 smartphone is a luxury item, even accounting for PPI. Compare that to the US, where the middle class makes about $47K per capita, smartphones are are ubiquitous. 13 year old kids have them, and not just kids of rich parents, it's a common sight.

    Certainly there is a market for high end smartphones in India. I never said there isn't. Every country has an upper class. It's the upper class in India that buys $600+ smartphones. These are the same people who buy cars. Surely there are some outliers, people who would be upper middle class, who can afford to buy expensive smartphones, and surely they do. The issue is, it's not a very large group. In 2012, about 18 million smartphones will be sold. Of that 18 million.... what percentage will be for smartphones that cost $600+? I suspect it's not going to be the majority. I think it might very well be a little over 3 million. In 2012, India is going to sell about 3 million cars..... Coincidence?

    Addendum: The previous analysis was just for India.... For China, the dynamics are quite different. In 2013, the expected sales for smartphones will be about 230-240 million, almost a quarter of subscribers, much higher numbers than India. There are multiple reasons for this, not the least of which is higher income, about $6K per capita GDP, and a very consumer centric economy.
  16. sam_b77's Avatar
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    #91  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roo Zilla View Post
    So you're saying that instead of buying cars, people are instead buying phones. Here's the problem with that argument. In developed markets like the US, smartphone penetration is over 50%. In India it's like 2%. Yes, the middle class is expanding in India, but the middle class in India makes like $2K per year per capita. Low Gini index means that's a fairly accurate estimate of middle class income. At that income level a $600 smartphone is a luxury item, even accounting for PPI. Compare that to the US, where the middle class makes about $47K per capita, smartphones are are ubiquitous. 13 year old kids have them, and not just kids of rich parents, it's a common sight.

    Certainly there is a market for high end smartphones in India. I never said there isn't. Every country has an upper class. It's the upper class in India that buys $600+ smartphones. These are the same people who buy cars. Surely there are some outliers, people who would be upper middle class, who can afford to buy expensive smartphones, and surely they do. The issue is, it's not a very large group. In 2012, about 18 million smartphones will be sold. Of that 18 million.... what percentage will be for smartphones that cost $600+? I suspect it's not going to be the majority. I think it might very well be a little over 3 million. In 2012, India is going to sell about 3 million cars..... Coincidence?

    Addendum: The previous analysis was just for India.... For China, the dynamics are quite different. In 2013, the expected sales for smartphones will be about 230-240 million, almost a quarter of subscribers, much higher numbers than India. There are multiple reasons for this, not the least of which is higher income, about $6K per capita GDP, and a very consumer centric economy.
    Just to correct you, the middle class in India make $2K per month not per year. They would starve at that level of income.
    Again just to point out in India we have to pay full price. So the guy who has bought a lowly curve has still shelled out as much money as Americans do for the iPhone. And he would change it in 8 months, not wait for three years. Statistics alone won't explain why this happens.
    Through the Years :2001 Ericsson T29s> Sony Z5> Sony Z7> SE Z600>Moto A760> RAZR V3>Razr V3i>BB 8800>BB 9500 >BB 9800>Bold 9900..RIM Returns with a bang

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  17. BBNation's Avatar
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    #92  

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    I agree. As I said before that is why RIM being smart offering low cost BBs for middle class and that will continue for 2013 and then when BB10 is ported over to new low cost models everyone will be buying bb10 only. This platform is good for next 5 years and RIM just have to update it and make money..
  18. jakie55's Avatar
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    #93  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roo Zilla View Post
    What I'm saying is, the statement that "QNX needed a dual core CPU" is BS. It doesn't. QNX obviously runs fine in embedded systems, very few, is any, of those run dual core CPUs. They made a choice for whatever reason, but saying that a dual core CPU is a requirement is simply not true.
    On the other hand, the last thing Blackberry needs is to have a legacy piece of hardware running BB10 in a laggy way, and having the press shout that BB10 is slow and laggy....something like ALL Blackberries are slow and poor in surfing the net, when using a OS 5 or 6 device.
    Q 10 for the win!
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  19. TomJasper's Avatar
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    #94  

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    Really? I thought that's what the isheep do every few months. I don't consider isheep "tech enthusiasts" by any stretch,lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by omniusovermind View Post
    I don't think you reflect the average consumer though. Most people don't shell out hundreds of dollars on mobile phones a scant few months apart. Tech enthusiasts do that, not average consumers, so no, I disagree with your theory that staggering launches will get people to buy both. People like you yes. Most people no. The average reaction would be "wtf, I just bought this phone, locked into a contract, and now you show this other phone just a few months after the fact?"
    People like up-front behaviour from a company, not marketing gimmicks. Show me what you have out the gate, and let ME decide whether I want an entry, mid, or high level phone, not you.
  20. cgk
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    #95  

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    I had a play with an L yesterday (that the code for the slab phone rather than the keyboard one right?) - looked just like the leaked photos and the person who had it said that RIM had told him that it was the final design.

    In the short period I played with it, the OS seems very snappy and very easy to use, I wasn't confused in the way that some tech pundits claim users are - the hardware is solid but a bit too generic looking for my tastes. Still if BB10 fails it's not going to be on the OS level (but I see the OS as a hygiene factor rather than something of critical importance anyway).
  21. RECOOL's Avatar
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    #96  

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    Quote Originally Posted by cgk View Post
    I had a play with an L yesterday (that the code for the slab phone rather than the keyboard one right?) - looked just like the leaked photos and the person who had it said that RIM had told him that it was the final design.
    Quote Originally Posted by cgk View Post
    In the short period I played with it, the OS seems very snappy and very easy to use, I wasn't confused in the way that some tech pundits claim users are - the hardware is solid but a bit too generic looking for my tastes. Still if BB10 fails it's not going to be on the OS level (but I see the OS as a hygiene factor rather than something of critical importance anyway).
    lol there's picture right now of the L's back and its nothing like the leaks your story is now suspect.And RIM lied to your buddy clearly as the new pictures reveal some kind of leather rubberness and it loooks nothing like the leaks.
  22. cgk
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    I just telling you what he told me - his organisation was seeded the devices last week - they liked them a lot. If you think its a lot of bollocks, well you think its a lot of bollocks and there isn't a lot I can do about that - the device looked like the pictures I've seen a black slab, I don't remember much of a texture - got a link to those new pictures?
  23. RECOOL's Avatar
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    #98  

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    Quote Originally Posted by cgk View Post
    I just telling you what he told me - his organisation was seeded the devices last week - they liked them a lot. If you think its a lot of bollocks, well you think its a lot of bollocks and there isn't a lot I can do about that - the device looked like the pictures I've seen a black slab, I don't remember much of a texture - got a link to those new pictures?
    CB front page and there's a thread somewhere and neither pics look like the evaluation unit leak pics.
  24. GTiLeo's Avatar
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    #99  

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    Quote Originally Posted by cgk View Post
    I just telling you what he told me - his organisation was seeded the devices last week - they liked them a lot. If you think its a lot of bollocks, well you think its a lot of bollocks and there isn't a lot I can do about that - the device looked like the pictures I've seen a black slab, I don't remember much of a texture - got a link to those new pictures?
    i believe you. what reason do you have to lie for, the actual hardware might be final but the shell its cased in may be different either that or the battery door is and its a cosmetic upgrade that changes how the over all look is.
    is the software the same as what we've seen in demos? did they say if they would get updates after the devices are fully launched?
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    #100  

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    RIM is trying to keep most things a secret, not surprising this buddy of yours was told this. RIM won't let Anyone of the public know anything because well for ONE, NEWS starts to accumulate and word of mouth happens. If the device or devices back cover keeps changing, then RIM is doing great at making sure the Final backing is Top secret and will do this to throw everyone off. Your buddy was the First to be thrown off.
    I wait for the future...to COME back to BlackBerry!
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