[playbookster]

Apple has been the main reason HTML5 has become mainstream and even Adobe has stopped work on mobile Flash. Remember Steve Jobs famous Thoughts on Flash back in April 2010?



Porting games still requires work and the results can be disappointing and can even hurt the reputation of the receiving platform.



This is true, but is also the reason why Apple released WebKit to open source. It was to battle Windows IE. It worked.



Compared to the near million number that Android and iOS will have, this number is pathetic.

So you think bb10 will fail? you dispute everything he said.

Blackberry had thousands of apps before android launched. Look what happened.

[playbookster]

I share your excitement for BB10 Alex, I truly do. But I think you're letting your enthusiasm colour your perception. As sosumi11 mentioned, MS has several key advantages going for it that are impossible to discount or downplay.

First and foremost, MS is promising a mobile phone/tablet OS that completely integrates with the desktop PC. No company before has claimed to offer this kind of synergy. Let's not forget that Windows is in about 90% of people's homes worldwide. And businesses... MS is pretty near to a virtual monopoly there. Once those people migrate to Windows 8 in their homes and offices, WP8 / Windows 8 tablets are going to be a natural fit. MS knows this, and it's no mistake that this is the core of their comeback strategy. They are using their PC monopoly to fuel and drive their mobile sales. Damn clever move, which could only be accomplished by someone with the muscle to pull that off.

On the app front, am I the only one who finds it quite telling that the big gun developers we've all been complaining about not having are practically tripping over themselves to jump on board Windows 8... months before it even becomes a reality? And just to solidify this, MS is footing the entire bill for them to do so. RIM's version of this is:

IOU $10k**

**offer only valid if we deem your app to qualify and only if your app is a success. While quantities last. Offer limited to one coupon per person

Ok, I'm being a bit of a smart alec there but you get the gist

MS is a leviathan. They have nearly infinite resources to throw at this contest. And they've demonstrated a lot of cunning all these years. He11, Bill Gates goes to Bilderburg along with the Rockefellers and the European monarchies. You'd have to be pretty damn optimistic to think this giant mega company was going to take WP7's lukewarm reception and just quietly go away.

What you're suggesting Alex, is that there even IS a fight, when in actuality there isn't. RIM made it pretty clear at BBW that their intended goal is NOT to duke it out with the larger companies, but to create a market of their very own and do it well. This announcement was perceived as the most clever strategy RIM could employ in the current mobile market by many people, and rightfully so. They don't need to enter into direct combat with MS or Apple, or Google. What they need to do is make a good product and sell enough of it to remain a valid player in the field.

This battlefield is littered with the broken carcasses of companies that attempted to take on giant mega companies head-on. I think many of us are well aware of the tragic defeats of Netscape, Sun Microsystems, and WebOS.

I think Thorsten and Co. are extremely savvy to recognize this and take measures not to join them. I'm looking forward to the polished products that RIM brings us with BB10 devices. I don't want to see those devices or RIM ruined in a senseless self-destructive battle against MS.

They may have infinite resources but they keep failing everytime they try to expand into the mobile world.. zune? windows phone? wm7? 3 strikes. Possibly a reason why they never made a portable xbox.

[FSeverino]

not only that none of the existing WP7 phones will be upgraded to WP8

same with OS7 though...

I fully support BB10 and RIM, but lets do things the right way... mention all the facts, or ignore them all, there is no middle ground.

[DaedalusIcarusHelios]

Apple's approach has always been that they are not for everyone. This is why they don't have a gazillion SKU's. They don't try to be everything for everyone. However, with the iPod/iTunes ecosystem, they came up with a "one size fits all" concept that happened to go mainstream. Everything they did after that was all "spun off".

Apple is no doubt prepping iOS to be a desktop class OS and eventually replace Mac OS. Once this conversion takes place (Apple TV?), then it will reset the counters once again.

The amazing thing about tech is that it is not standing still. The main problem with tech is that too many consumers (and companies) think of the future based on existing tech. Consumers don't know anything till you show it to them, and companies don't know how it will sell till it gets in the consumers' hands.

The problem RIM is having is that they are reacting as if today's tech will still be relevant tomorrow. In other words, just having something "as good" as today's tech tomorrow is a path to ultimate fail. RIM needs to think that the mobile industry is merging into the computer industry. They still think that there will be a smartphone industry ten years from now.

And there will be. Just as there are typewriter and calculator industries.

I disagree with the assertion that RIM is aiming at today's tech and not the future. The acquisition of QNX was to build a mobile computing platform, not just another phone OS. They are looking ahead to automotive and beyond. They are most definitely building a platform for their future. Even their UI designs via TAT are futuristic, even if various elements can be seen in some form or another in different OSes.

[sosumi11]

I disagree with the assertion that RIM is aiming at today's tech and not the future. The acquisition of QNX was to build a mobile computing platform, not just another phone OS. They are looking ahead to automotive and beyond. They are most definitely building a platform for their future. Even their UI designs via TAT are futuristic, even if various elements can be seen in some form or another in different OSes.

Before RIM purchased QNX who has ever heard of them?

And what does "looking ahead to automotive and beyond" mean? That it's "future proof?" They should not be building a platform for "their" future. They should be thinking about "ours."

[Foreverup]

Before RIM purchased QNX who has ever heard of them?



And what does "looking ahead to automotive and beyond" mean? That it's "future proof?" They should not be building a platform for "their" future. They should be thinking about "ours."

i heard of QNX before RIM bought them.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9810 using Tapatalk

[addicted44]

I disagree with the assertion that RIM is aiming at today's tech and not the future. The acquisition of QNX was to build a mobile computing platform, not just another phone OS. They are looking ahead to automotive and beyond. They are most definitely building a platform for their future. Even their UI designs via TAT are futuristic, even if various elements can be seen in some form or another in different OSes.

Yeah but mobile computing platforms are today's tech. That is exactly what iOS and Android are (android even more so, especially when you consider things like Android@Home). And W8 is expected to be the same way (although MS hasn't confirmed it on devices smaller than tabs).

I do think BB10 looks great and probably stands a good chance in the market, but I don't think it is the radical leap Sosumi seems to be talking about.

[omniusovermind]

They may have infinite resources but they keep failing everytime they try to expand into the mobile world.. zune? windows phone? wm7? 3 strikes. Possibly a reason why they never made a portable xbox.

My reply was to be seen in context of the topic though, which is whether MS or RIM have the advantage for their respective "make-overs", not whether or not MS on its own can make it in the mobile world. Given the topic I say my previous points remain valid.

[OzarkaTexile]

RIM might have an advantage over Microsoft in mobile. They will battle each other for third place for the next few years.

[texazzpete]

They may have infinite resources but they keep failing everytime they try to expand into the mobile world.. zune? windows phone? wm7? 3 strikes. Possibly a reason why they never made a portable xbox.

Not exactly correct. Once upon a time, Windows Mobile was the second most dominant smartphone platform in the world after Symbian. They were also 2nd, behind Blackberry OS.

Of course, that was before the iPhone leviathan hit...

[DaedalusIcarusHelios]

Before RIM purchased QNX who has ever heard of them?

And what does "looking ahead to automotive and beyond" mean? That it's "future proof?" They should not be building a platform for "their" future. They should be thinking about "ours."

QNX doesn't have to be a household name to show its value. Who heard of them? Plenty - look where QNX is used. I listen to some underground melodic death metal, but most people haven't heard of it. But to me, it's far better than the commercial garbage that is popular and well-known.

When I mention "automotive and beyond", I'm speaking to other areas that BB10 can move to. That's their future - diversification of their technology in multiple markets. There are rumors that Apple is interested in going into Automotive, as well as the iTV that you mentioned you thought was some example of future tech. QNX is already in the automotive space, and this will propel RIM and the BlackBerry brand into more than simply smartphones and tablets. Obviously Apple is looking into other markets as well, as is Google (Google TV, Chrome books).

QNX gives RIM a solid technical foundation and can take it in many areas and directions. RIM building a platform for their future isn't mutually exclusive to "our" future - whatever that is supposed to mean. Apple builds what it wants to, and many people conform to that vision. It doesn't work for everyone, and it'll be the same for RIM and everyone else. RIM can only build the best products it can, because even if they completely nail BB10, it won't please everyone, and they shouldn't try to.

[n8ter#AC]

The author of the article brought up some good points, but following are some areas which BB10 outshines and nobody is talking about:

1) HTML5 (no other platform out there is trying so hard as BB10 to be HTML5 complaint and RIM is harnessing their webworks API's and improving the performance by hardware accelerating CSS etc). Also they are only mobile platform that support webGl

Microsoft has their own DirectX APIs that are in Windows CE/Windows NT. WebGL isn't necessarily an industry standard, either.

2) Support open gaming frameworks unlike Windows Phone, game porting on to BB10 is a breeze and playbook has much quality gaming than on WP7. i.e the main reason we saw the likes of Angry birds space or Deadspace before on WP7.

But WP8 will support APIs that are cross-platform (in a sense) from Desktop Windows and perhaps hte XB360. That is a huge win for that platform. Porting to BB10 will be an afterthought when you can get Windows and XBOX and then get copatibility almost for free.

3) BB10 web browser is based on Webkit rendering engine which is also backed by Google, Apple where as Microsoft is riding it's fortunes on IE(not webkit) which is not able to keep with the likes of Chrome, Firefox etc.

IE9 is one of the fastest browsers. It's faster than Safari, for example, and IE9 on WP7.5 outperforms Safari and easily outperforms both the BB and Android browsers (not sure of Chrome Mobile, haven't tried it) in Pinch-Zoom and scrolling operations. BTW, the Rendering engine in IE is called Trident, FFR. Browsers have gotten to a point where it's almost not even worth looking at benchmarks since most of the differences are not noticeable in real world use, anyways.

WP8 will use the same browser engine as Windows 8 so it will get first class support just by virtue of that.

4) By the time BB10 launches it will have 35k-40k apps (currently playbook has 25k and another 5k in the review queue)

WP7.5 already has like 80k Apps or something NOW, and they'll be compatible with Apollo, and it will continue to grow afterwards while benefiting from WinRT compatibility. How is that an advantage? We don't even know what most of those apps are.

5) Improved Android Runtime will be the key as well.

Lol?

6) oops! did I say that BB10 has the best Adobe flash integration..WP7 doesn't support flash. (Agree or disagree but Flash fills a lot of app gap especially when it comes to media and streaming and it is not as bad as Mr. Jobs made it out to be )

Flash has been given a death sentence even by Adobe and we all know that Flash kills your battery. Many of us used to rave about Flash and ended up turning it off on any device that uses it. And sorry, but most flash sites are built for keyboard and mouse and are a complete PITA to navigate on a touchscreen phone. I can do without flash, thank you very much. Many more people are coming to that conclusion. It's not that big of an advantage, and in many cases is the complete opposite (battery life, etc.).

7) Native C/C++, Qt (Cascades) SDK

Microsoft has much better developer tools than RIM (or Apple, or Google) and what toosl you use for development really is a bit too subjective to say one or the other is an advantage. As far as I'm concerned, no one else but Nokia wanted to bother with Qt Mobility so it's good they found at least someone to put some use to it. Gratz on RIM for that. WP7's managed code performs like Native Code so it really doesn't matter. Visual Studio will probably always be better than anything RIM can ever cook up, anyways.

[DaedalusIcarusHelios]

Yeah but mobile computing platforms are today's tech. That is exactly what iOS and Android are (android even more so, especially when you consider things like Android@Home). And W8 is expected to be the same way (although MS hasn't confirmed it on devices smaller than tabs).

I do think BB10 looks great and probably stands a good chance in the market, but I don't think it is the radical leap Sosumi seems to be talking about.

What do you mean mobile computing platforms are today's tech? It is still very much in its infancy. And if RIM is supposed to be targeting Tomorrow's Tech, then what exactly is that, if not by means of a mobile computing platform? We don't know what the next direction tech will go, even though we have some ideas. Hyper-connectivity will be important, surely, and this may lead to either distributed processing amongst heterogeneous devices, or perhaps everything will simply be dumb clients where everything is not only stored in the cloud but also processed. It could be said those are current tech, and even if it is considered the future, how does RIM target it when the infrastructures aren't in place for it? QNX can handle distributed processing, and RIM's strengths are in its network and security. Nothing that RIM is doing now is going to hurt them in the long-term view, in my opinion. What I have seen shows that not only are they positioned for now (when BB10 comes to market), but as well as the immediate future. There's no guarantees past that (such as implantable computers with direct neural interfaces, eliminating the need for devices).

RIM is also championing HTML5, which although is current tech, it is also future tech, because its still a burgeoning technology that isn't even standardized yet. Moving away from closed ecosystems is the future. It's just that iOS made the closed ecosystem popular and so it's life will be extended. RIM is targeting that as well, so they aren't putting all their eggs in one basket. They are targeting now and the future. Their diversification in excellent development tools and languages will be a great advantage at some point.

I don't know exactly what radical leap Sosumi is speaking of, and how RIM is supposed to target that while competitors don't. Convergence of Desktop and mobile OSes is just a growing pain. Windows 8 may have some nice convergence in some areas, but for the most part it is a kludge. OSX already has some iOS-ification done to it, and that isn't exactly great either. At some point the need for distinct platforms for different form factors will cease to exist. It is likely that the mobile platforms will overtake, not merge, with their desktop counterparts. BB10 could work in a desktop/laptop type of form factor (the OEM keyboard with multi-touch touchpad shows it can be used as such). Classic desktop applications could be used via Citrix Receiver or other remote technologies with applications running on servers or in the cloud.

I am optimistic in what BB10 will be when it is released, but I'm also optimistic in the future because I truly believe RIM has laid a strong foundation with their smart acquisitions.

[n8ter#AC]

They may have infinite resources but they keep failing everytime they try to expand into the mobile world.. zune? windows phone? wm7? 3 strikes. Possibly a reason why they never made a portable xbox.

Zune was a PMP - not necessarily "mobile", and the main point of Zune wasn't really the device, but the services - which can theoretically be bolted onto anyone's device as long as it supports the Microsoft DRM. From Zune, Microsoft grew a good Media Ecosystem (Music, Videos, Podcasts) and the bases for their WP7.5/Win8 App Stores. They also got the bases of their Metro UI from that device. RIM does not have anything remotely comparable to the Zune services or Microsoft's ecosystem right now. They're way behind Apple and Google as well - even piggybacking on Google's app ecosystem to fill in the gaps in the meantime (and likely into BB10's launch).

Apple had the Newton, it failed, it did not stop them from succeeding with the iPhone or iPad. In fact, Apple has actually failed colossally in the past, almost to the point of failing as a company completely.

[n8ter#AC]

What do you mean mobile computing platforms are today's tech? It is still very much in its infancy. And if RIM is supposed to be targeting Tomorrow's Tech, then what exactly is that, if not by means of a mobile computing platform? We don't know what the next direction tech will go, even though we have some ideas. Hyper-connectivity will be important, surely, and this may lead to either distributed processing amongst heterogeneous devices, or perhaps everything will simply be dumb clients where everything is not only stored in the cloud but also processed. It could be said those are current tech, and even if it is considered the future, how does RIM target it when the infrastructures aren't in place for it? QNX can handle distributed processing, and RIM's strengths are in its network and security. Nothing that RIM is doing now is going to hurt them in the long-term view, in my opinion. What I have seen shows that not only are they positioned for now (when BB10 comes to market), but as well as the immediate future. There's no guarantees past that (such as implantable computers with direct neural interfaces, eliminating the need for devices).

RIM is also championing HTML5, which although is current tech, it is also future tech, because its still a burgeoning technology that isn't even standardized yet. Moving away from closed ecosystems is the future. It's just that iOS made the closed ecosystem popular and so it's life will be extended. RIM is targeting that as well, so they aren't putting all their eggs in one basket. They are targeting now and the future. Their diversification in excellent development tools and languages will be a great advantage at some point.

I don't know exactly what radical leap Sosumi is speaking of, and how RIM is supposed to target that while competitors don't. Convergence of Desktop and mobile OSes is just a growing pain. Windows 8 may have some nice convergence in some areas, but for the most part it is a kludge. OSX already has some iOS-ification done to it, and that isn't exactly great either. At some point the need for distinct platforms for different form factors will cease to exist. It is likely that the mobile platforms will overtake, not merge, with their desktop counterparts. BB10 could work in a desktop/laptop type of form factor (the OEM keyboard with multi-touch touchpad shows it can be used as such). Classic desktop applications could be used via Citrix Receiver or other remote technologies with applications running on servers or in the cloud.

I am optimistic in what BB10 will be when it is released, but I'm also optimistic in the future because I truly believe RIM has laid a strong foundation with their smart acquisitions.

What you described it already happening in Windows, but you try to slight it as some way to give room to say RIM has a chance there. You cannot be seriously. Basically Windows 8 is a metro-based Desktop OS but it retains much of the desktop functionality becuase it must be there - cause who will use it if all of their existing apps (which can potentially cost thousands of dollars combined) won't run, right?

If that's RIM's plan, then they're about 5 years behind Microsoft and maybe 3 or so behind Apple if that's what Apple's goal is (though I do not assume both AAPL and MSFT are taking similar approaches in this area).

RIM can't even build their own UI APIs, how are they gonna build and compete with a desktop OS? RIM is all about Acquisitions and levereging existing technology, they haven't innovated anything in over a decade.

[sf49ers]

Microsoft has their own DirectX APIs that are in Windows CE/Windows NT. WebGL isn't necessarily an industry standard, either.


But WP8 will support APIs that are cross-platform (in a sense) from Desktop Windows and perhaps hte XB360. That is a huge win for that platform. Porting to BB10 will be an afterthought when you can get Windows and XBOX and then get copatibility almost for free.


IE9 is one of the fastest browsers. It's faster than Safari, for example, and IE9 on WP7.5 outperforms Safari and easily outperforms both the BB and Android browsers (not sure of Chrome Mobile, haven't tried it) in Pinch-Zoom and scrolling operations. BTW, the Rendering engine in IE is called Trident, FFR. Browsers have gotten to a point where it's almost not even worth looking at benchmarks since most of the differences are not noticeable in real world use, anyways.

WP8 will use the same browser engine as Windows 8 so it will get first class support just by virtue of that.


WP7.5 already has like 80k Apps or something NOW, and they'll be compatible with Apollo, and it will continue to grow afterwards while benefiting from WinRT compatibility. How is that an advantage? We don't even know what most of those apps are.


Lol?


Flash has been given a death sentence even by Adobe and we all know that Flash kills your battery. Many of us used to rave about Flash and ended up turning it off on any device that uses it. And sorry, but most flash sites are built for keyboard and mouse and are a complete PITA to navigate on a touchscreen phone. I can do without flash, thank you very much. Many more people are coming to that conclusion. It's not that big of an advantage, and in many cases is the complete opposite (battery life, etc.).


Microsoft has much better developer tools than RIM (or Apple, or Google) and what toosl you use for development really is a bit too subjective to say one or the other is an advantage. As far as I'm concerned, no one else but Nokia wanted to bother with Qt Mobility so it's good they found at least someone to put some use to it. Gratz on RIM for that. WP7's managed code performs like Native Code so it really doesn't matter. Visual Studio will probably always be better than anything RIM can ever cook up, anyways.

basically what you are talking about is a pipe dream and hypothetical, nothing to the extent you talked exists in WP and/or is not planned in WP8 at all. And in comparison what RIM is doing with BB10 has already in working mode in the Playbook OS. The times where companies like MS throw some proprietary sh1t at devs and ask them to develop is over. If MS wants to be in the race they need to embrace open platforms like Webkit, C/C++ or Java, HTML5, 3rd party gaming frameworks where the world is going (apple, google and others). IE on WP has various complaints from reviewers and customers alike, IE on desktop is a dinosaur and looks like you have not used Chrome and Firefox lately.

[DaedalusIcarusHelios]

What you described it already happening in Windows, but you try to slight it as some way to give room to say RIM has a chance there. You cannot be seriously. Basically Windows 8 is a metro-based Desktop OS but it retains much of the desktop functionality becuase it must be there - cause who will use it if all of their existing apps (which can potentially cost thousands of dollars combined) won't run, right?

If that's RIM's plan, then they're about 5 years behind Microsoft and maybe 3 or so behind Apple if that's what Apple's goal is (though I do not assume both AAPL and MSFT are taking similar approaches in this area).

RIM can't even build their own UI APIs, how are they gonna build and compete with a desktop OS? RIM is all about Acquisitions and levereging existing technology, they haven't innovated anything in over a decade.

Bolting the Metro UI onto their normal desktop OS is a kludge, sorry. The version of Windows 8 RT and Windows Phone 8 aren't going to be running classic desktop apps. So essentially what will work across all platforms is something new, much like the HTML5 apps that RIM is advocating that work across BB7, BB10, PlayBook, and other competing devices that properly support HTML5. IE may have made great strides in starting to adopt standards, but they still have a long way to go.

I don't think Windows (as a desktop OS) is going away any time soon because of the need for those existing apps. I love Windows 7 and Office, so I'm not a MS hater.

Again, I don't think a convergence OS is the way to go, and I don't think RIM is going that way. What I'm saying is that they will support standard desktop interfaces (keyboard and mouse/touchpad), and can access desktop-type apps through remote technologies, if not as web apps. RIM is never going to support classic Windows apps in BB10 directly, nor OSX apps directly. And likely not as a virtual machine either. Network connectivity is getting faster and more available, and this will make all devices able to remotely access all types of applications and content.

Your last paragraph is ridiculous. They have certainly made their own APIs in the past, and just because they bought TAT and are using them for their cascades UI doesn't mean they can't do anything themselves. The fact is that a technology transition requires fresh blood and new ideas, and they don't have time to build things out internally. Technology acquisitions happen all the time, even with big players in the field. Internet Explorer was acquired. It's really only recently they started actually doing something decent with it.

[OzarkaTexile]

basically what you are talking about is a pipe dream and hypothetical, nothing to the extent you talked exists in WP and/or is not planned in WP8 at all. And in comparison what RIM is doing with BB10 has already in working mode in the Playbook OS. The times where companies like MS throw some proprietary sh1t at devs and ask them to develop is over. If MS wants to be in the race they need to embrace open platforms like Webkit, C/C++ or Java, HTML5, 3rd party gaming frameworks where the world is going (apple, google and others). IE on WP has various complaints from reviewers and customers alike, IE on desktop is a dinosaur and looks like you have not used Chrome and Firefox lately.

If all MS has to do is match the success of the Playbook, I think they're in good shape.

It's good that there are some non-WebKit browsers out there. HTML5 should be a platform separate from WebKit.

[pcguy514]

I have been a Windows power user / admin for years and I have pretty much no interest in Windows 8 (Windows 7 is great though). I'll be sure to take another look at some point, but I was put off by the first preview release, as it appeared to be two separate things.

As far as Windows Phone being #2, that's about as likely as BB10 becoming #2. MS has been a huge tech company for decades, yet they have less market share than RIM does for smartphones. So their size doesn't really matter. iOS devices are huge not because Apple was, but rather their approach and innovation. Having said that, they aren't for everyone (myself included), so targeting a certain audience makes sense. Windows Phone is a decent OS, and WP8 will improve upon that. So I do see their market share growing, but I also see the same for RIM with BB10.

I endorse this comment as i feel the exact same wrt win8 being the holy graile .
IE9+ will be the only browser on win 8 tabs and phones so no its not like everything is gonna be cross device with win 8...

[texazzpete]

I endorse this comment as i feel the exact same wrt win8 being the holy graile .
IE9+ will be the only browser on win 8 tabs and phones so no its not like everything is gonna be cross device with win 8...

IE10, you mean. And unless you've been living under a rock, you'd know that Firefox and Chrome browsers are already in development for Windows 8.

Stop trying to pass yourself off as a 'Windows power user'. Your words say otherwise.

[sf49ers]

IE10, you mean. And unless you've been living under a rock, you'd know that Firefox and Chrome browsers are already in development for Windows 8.

Stop trying to pass yourself off as a 'Windows power user'. Your words say otherwise.

lol..not too quick Mr Rocky. the news something of that sort emerged this week, Windows 8 RT is not going to play good with other browsers, here is the news that went viral over the last week .

Microsoft to block browser choice in Windows RT, says Mozilla | The Verge

[_StephenBB81]

lol..not too quick Mr Rocky. the news something of that sort emerged this week, Windows 8 RT is not going to play good with other browsers, here is the news that went viral over the last week .

Microsoft to block browser choice in Windows RT, says Mozilla | The Verge

That is ONLY on ARM powered devices, so means nothing really to the mozilla crowd who is crying over it, since they currently don't have firefox on most ARM devices,

x86 Windows still will not limit browser choice

[dandbj13]

This is the discussion we should be having. RIM vs. MS is realistic. The battle for first and second is done for now. This is the battle, not for supremacy, but for continued existence in the market for, say, RIM and Nokia, maybe MS with the phone project. MS can afford to lose the race, as they have a good fallback position to try and become the #2 tablet ecosystem. RIM does not have that option. Therefore, their situation is more desperate than Microsoft's.

[_StephenBB81]

This is the discussion we should be having. RIM vs. MS is realistic. The battle for first and second is done for now. This is the battle, not for supremacy, but for continued existence in the market for, say, RIM and Nokia, maybe MS with the phone project. MS can afford to lose the race, as they have a good fallback position to try and become the #2 tablet ecosystem. RIM does not have that option. Therefore, their situation is more desperate than Microsoft's.

I greatly disagree the battle for dominance is won, and Apple and Google are the only 2 people to sit there.

Android is very fragile, it is based on the free software movement, but Google is very much neglecting Android, which leaves Windows to eat into the Manufacturer support, and developer support is iffy with Android, Unless google steps in and starts adding some standards of development and hardware requirements developers will start to defect.

it only took 4 years for Apple to have the most popular single device in the market, and the market has just this year in North America reached 50% penetration so there is still lots of room for someone to take from Apple and Google and take the #2 or #1 spot in the next 3 years, especially on the global stage!

[Alex_Hong]

some news for thoughts? haha.

Kantar: Windows Phone climbs to 3-4% market share in major markets, may have overtaken Blackberry in USA | WMPoweruser

Anyway, Microsoft is earning money for every android sold. Saying they are in a much better position is an understatement. But I really do hope they will do more with Apollo. So far I havent read much news or details about it.


anyway, one thing history teaches us is that the fall from the top is a hard one. Nokia anyone? Mobile industry is different in the way that people generally replace their devices much more often than other things. The expected lifespan of phones are short. People will easily ditch their existing phone for another one when there is something wrong with it, or simply for the next "in" thing. That's why when you fall, it could be quick free fall dive down (Nokia, RIM). When you rise, it could be jet propelled dash up (Apple, Google). If you were to ask me, the mobile industry is a much more competitive market as compared to personal computers.