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  1. Blackberry_Boy's Avatar
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    Default All Things D -Survey. How do we reconcile conflicting statements?

    Does anyone have any idea why there are common reports of sell-outs of Z10, an inability of carriers to even tell when units will be shipped and reports of strong sales, yet "surveys" like this suggest a more lukewarm reception to the BB10?

    Survey Questions Stamina of BlackBerry Z10 in Canada, U.K. - John Paczkowski - Mobile - AllThingsD

    I don't get it. Do you?
  2. GTiLeo's Avatar
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    peopel are still trying to cover their asses about BlackBerry. the Z10 is sellign well and they just can't accept it
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    John Paczkowski has tended to be VERY negative on BB in the past couple of years. I won't say he's out-and-out lied about anything, but he's certainly gone out of his way to find negatives from time to time.

    We have a survey from one Deutche Bank analyst that seems to conflict with that Phones 4U claim of 55% stores sold out. It looks a little like cherry-picked data. I don't know why an analyst would do this, and I know for a fact that Canada has seen more-than-spotty sell-outs. At best, the survey is an outlier, at worst it looks engineered to discredit the notion of a BB comeback.





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  4. richardat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackberry_Boy View Post
    Does anyone have any idea why there are common reports of sell-outs of Z10, an inability of carriers to even tell when units will be shipped and reports of strong sales, yet "surveys" like this suggest a more lukewarm reception to the BB10?

    Survey Questions Stamina of BlackBerry Z10 in Canada, U.K. - John Paczkowski - Mobile - AllThingsD

    I don't get it. Do you?
    Yes....I do get it. Some stores have been sold out....but not all. Far from all. Reports to that end exaggerate that. Further, it's clear that supplies were quite limited. What you have is limited supplies of z10 selling out in some stores. Which basically equates to....a lukewarm launch. BB, and BB enthusiasts play up the "sellout' angle (which of course...is rather absurd ie. selling out in some stores, or even 50% of stores is not a "sellout" (which again, is not to even mention the small supplies)), while others are finding indications that many stores weren't sold out.

    Put it this way BB boy. IF large quantities of z10 really were sold....if BB was truly overwhelmed and backlogged with demand, do you think you might here concrete numbers from them?? Do you think, if they gave those numbers, it would generate great press, and excitement in the tech industry and fans? If BB came forward and said " we have sold 5 million z10 already. We are overwhelmed and thrilled. We are so sorry...even we did not anticipate a sell-through rate this high....we have ramped up our production to unbelievable levels, and we are going to get z10's out to our customers as soon as possible!

    He's not saying that. SO either they did, and he just thinks it's cute to be coy....or they didn't. You must decide for yourself which is more plausible. Of course, it is always possible they did, and we won't know for sure, until some real numbers are released and verified. Heins say they have the numbers, if they are truly big/impressive, then Heins must be shorting stock ;-)
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  5. Blackberry_Boy's Avatar
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    I think there are many reasons why numbers will not be given out. The main one is how they will be interpreted. If it were not for the fact that I have had conversations with people on the sales desk in store an on the telephone at Rogers and they tell me the sales are outstanding, then I might think that BBRY is playing games. Call my naive, but I don't see that these people have any vested interest in feeding me a line of BS. Furthermore, I don't see any home town bias for BB that would suggest my experience is skewed. Over the past year the number of iPhones has increased, even though I am in Guelph, down the road from Waterloo.

    Agree that sales may not be as wildly high as some people are suggesting, but do we not think there is something positive happening?
  6. Zarpan's Avatar
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    What do you consider a lukewarm launch though? You seem to be benchmarking the Z10's launch to Apple's launches. Of course they aren't going to sell 5 million Z10s already or anywhere close to it. They're also not going to give numbers since it will inevitably be compared negatively to Apple's launch, which was for many more countries and just has higher demand period. If BlackBerry can do 1/5th the numbers that Apple does with the iPhone 5, they're in really good shape.

    Aside from that, we do know that the Z10 has been the best launch that BlackBerry has had in Canada and the UK. No raw numbers, but it has to be seen as a positive if early sales of the Z10 are better than any previous BlackBerry product.

    As well, one common theme of the analysts is that previously bearish analysts manage to find bearish store checks, while bullish ones manage to find bullish store checks. That's why I thought that Ferragu's report was interesting in that he was previously pretty bearish, but had a positive store check report. I put somewhat more stock into that than a report that matches the analyst's previously held views.



    Quote Originally Posted by richardat View Post
    Yes....I do get it. Some stores have been sold out....but not all. Far from all. Reports to that end exaggerate that. Further, it's clear that supplies were quite limited. What you have is limited supplies of z10 selling out in some stores. Which basically equates to....a lukewarm launch. BB, and BB enthusiasts play up the "sellout' angle (which of course...is rather absurd ie. selling out in some stores, or even 50% of stores is not a "sellout" (which again, is not to even mention the small supplies)), while others are finding indications that many stores weren't sold out.

    Put it this way BB boy. IF large quantities of z10 really were sold....if BB was truly overwhelmed and backlogged with demand, do you think you might here concrete numbers from them?? Do you think, if they gave those numbers, it would generate great press, and excitement in the tech industry and fans? If BB came forward and said " we have sold 5 million z10 already. We are overwhelmed and thrilled. We are so sorry...even we did not anticipate a sell-through rate this high....we have ramped up our production to unbelievable levels, and we are going to get z10's out to our customers as soon as possible!

    He's not saying that. SO either they did, and he just thinks it's cute to be coy....or they didn't. You must decide for yourself which is more plausible. Of course, it is always possible they did, and we won't know for sure, until some real numbers are released and verified. Heins say they have the numbers, if they are truly big/impressive, then Heins must be shorting stock ;-)
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    The demand for a Z10 is so good that people over the UK are buying unlocked phones and making profit with internet sales. I know because I just got a very good friend of mine to send me one and she heard it from directly from the store manager.

    So yeah. In your face AThingsD, and BGR, and all others...

    This cracked me up though:

    All Things D -Survey. How do we reconcile conflicting statements?-rim_i_want_to_believe-380x285.png
    Quick Help BLACKBERRY HELP 101 | Direct load Android (APK) Apps : BB10 10.2.1|Sideloading apps: BB10/PlayBook | Update/Reload Software: BB7.1- - PlayBook - BB10 | Debrick: BB7.1- - PlayBook - BB10 | Backup 3rd Party Apps: BB7.1- - PlayBook & BB10: Just use BB Link | Battery Saving: BB7.1- - PlayBook - BB10

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  8. GTiLeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackberry_Boy View Post
    I think there are many reasons why numbers will not be given out. The main one is how they will be interpreted. If it were not for the fact that I have had conversations with people on the sales desk in store an on the telephone at Rogers and they tell me the sales are outstanding, then I might think that BBRY is playing games. Call my naive, but I don't see that these people have any vested interest in feeding me a line of BS. Furthermore, I don't see any home town bias for BB that would suggest my experience is skewed. Over the past year the number of iPhones has increased, even though I am in Guelph, down the road from Waterloo.

    Agree that sales may not be as wildly high as some people are suggesting, but do we not think there is something positive happening?
    the earnings report is going to be out soon i'm sure BBRY is waiting until then to tell investers what they want to hear, it is after all a company numbers report. thorsten Heins has already told us this is the bes Blackberry launch they've ever had and by 50%. for him to say that they are getting numbers it is a big time offence to lie to investors and i doubt even slightly that this is whats happening.

    if people with investments want to knwo the actual numbers then they shoudl wait like everyone else to hear the numbers on the sales of Z10s for when they are presented, until then liek the rest just play the shorting game or ride the waves and enjoy the ride
  9. Blackberry_Boy's Avatar
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    There are games being played by Bears, it would appear, and probably games being played by the Bulls. A lot of agendas here. Big money at stake for a lot of people. Reputations as well. BBRY has been called the walking dead by many for a long time and it will be embarassing for some when the results are known. I have to say that I am feeling very optimistic about the launch and think BBRY is on their way to being not just a little relevant, but significantly relevant, globally.
  10. BBThemes's Avatar
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    hmm, love the end of the first paragraph `it may have been poor inventory` which basically means `we have no facts so we are just gonna assume summat`.

    respectability.......lost.

    Thorsten said ZED 10. deal with it
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  11. tiziano27's Avatar
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    In Canada the z10 seems to be selling well, but BB has a supply problem.
    In UK fans rushed to get the phone the first week, then the demand dried?
  12. Gnomesane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderbuck View Post
    John Paczkowski has tended to be VERY negative on BB in the past couple of years. I won't say he's out-and-out lied about anything, but he's certainly gone out of his way to find negatives from time to time.

    We have a survey from one Deutche Bank analyst that seems to conflict with that Phones 4U claim of 55% stores sold out. It looks a little like cherry-picked data. I don't know why an analyst would do this, and I know for a fact that Canada has seen more-than-spotty sell-outs. At best, the survey is an outlier, at worst it looks engineered to discredit the notion of a BB comeback.
    Denial is just not a river in Egypt. Yeah, I think some media analyst egos are on the line, and they just can't accept that RIM/Blackberry is still around and actually doing well. ALL indications are that the phone is selling well, better than anticipated certainly. Beyond that, who knows.

    I think these people are also possibly short sellers or have clients that have short sold the stock and wanna push it down.
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    Nobody except Blackberry knows the true level of sales. However, we can use the limited data that we know to predict future sales. Think about all the data points and anecdotal evidence that suggests that the Z10 is a success: statements made by Thorsten Heins, Rogers, Phones 4u, number of positive reviews at Telus and Rogers, Ebay prices, all the other various news articles and analyst reports that suggest that retailers are out of stock. Now think about the data points and anecdotal evidence that do not suggest that the Z10 is a success. It should be clear that the current data overwhelmingly supports the conclusion that the Z10 is selling well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by richardat View Post
    Further, it's clear that supplies were quite limited.
    Compared to what? Not suggesting that you're wrong in this, but I see this counter-argument put forth a lot. "They hardly got any in".

    What does the typical new phone get in at launch per store? What did the typical BlackBerry get in? Is the Z10 higher or lower on average?

    It feels like people are trying to claim success or failure without having the big picture.

    Which basically equates to....a lukewarm launch.
    Again ... compared to what? Did it sell above or below what the carriers expected it to do? What BlackBerry expected it to do? What other phones like the Lumia did? Etc.

    Agree with your point on the enthusiasts and all. I know in my small sample when I've talked to stores, the response I've received is that it has been selling briskly and better than other BlackBerrys and many other smartphones. Every time I go in a store, someone is looking at one and buying one. That's a positive sign. I think some people are proclaiming failure if it doesn't sell five million units in a global launch over a weekend like the iPhone. It's not going to.

    Put it this way BB boy. IF large quantities of z10 really were sold....if BB was truly overwhelmed and backlogged with demand, do you think you might here concrete numbers from them??
    Doubt it. Because even if it beat BlackBerrys expectations and even if it beat the carriers expectations and had a significant increase over other BlackBerry sales, it would be compared to iPhone launch events. Nothing matches those.

    And in truth, Apple doesn't sustain those sales either. :-) If it did, you'd be hearing about how Apple sold 150 million iPhones in a single quarter. Has never happened. ;-)

    Reality is, we won't really know how well this thing is doing until June, when it has been available in most places for a full quarter. I think this quarter is actually going to cause the stock to tank because Z10 is only factoring into a fraction of the quarter. That will be the test, as will the longterm sustainability.
    ------------------------------------
    I like how BlackBerry 10 is evolving, but when are they going to fix BlackBerry Link for Mac?

    The fact that it doesn't reliably do what it's supposed to do ... most of the time ... is utterly appalling. The only consistency is the "Music not copied to Z10 message"
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiziano27 View Post
    In UK fans rushed to get the phone the first week, then the demand dried?
    You have GFK data to back that up?
    ------------------------------------
    I like how BlackBerry 10 is evolving, but when are they going to fix BlackBerry Link for Mac?

    The fact that it doesn't reliably do what it's supposed to do ... most of the time ... is utterly appalling. The only consistency is the "Music not copied to Z10 message"
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    Another conflicting statement: People claim initial stock levels were low. Thorsten Heins and Rogers say that it's the best launch in the company's history. How can the Z10 be the best launch if initial stock levels were low? The logical conclusion is that initial stock levels were not low and that the stock outs are caused by high demand, not limited supply.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelexiong View Post
    Another conflicting statement: People claim initial stock levels were low. Thorsten Heins and Rogers say that it's the best launch in the company's history. How can the Z10 be the best launch if initial stock levels were low? The logical conclusion is that initial stock levels were not low and that the stock outs are caused by high demand, not limited supply.
    we have no idea really what the best launch before hand was. they could have sold 10k as their best launch in the past so they have only sold 15k now. they have no launched a new product like this in a long time. Possible like the storm in 2008 and back then smartphones didnt sell in near as huge numbers.

    Point is until we have actual numbers from BB its all speculation. All of the above can be true but we just dont know
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    We're all blowing in the wind until the hard numbers come out. What I can say about small inventories per store in Canada is that we are swamped with cell phone retailers. You can't go a block in a commercial district without running across a store or two. Heck, there are kiosks and displays in many grocery, drug and corner stores.

    Case in point: I have been checking online inventory of one retailer and was getting the impression that stocks ran from a low of 1 or 2 Z10s per store in rural areas to maybe 7 or 8 in malls. As an FYI, this stock was per colour and per carrier so the chain I looked at had 2 carriers and 2 colours per carrier for a total stock ranging from 4 to 32 in all.

    A better comparison was to see what the stock of a competing product might be. I looked at other brands and models and ended up with numbers looking awfully similar to the stocks of the Z10. Canadian retailers have so many competing models and carriers to stock that the supposedly low stock levels appear to be the norm. It does not look like there was any short shipping or lower than normal inventory. Of course, stores like Rogers and Bell who only sell plans for one carrier will have higher stock levels per store, Unfortunately, the don't put their inventories online, so I could not make comparisons involving them.

    In the end, I am fairly confident that Mr. Heins was not overstating the initial success of the Z10. In my opinion, if he did overstate the success and the coming quarter's sales figures prove otherwise, he will have no credibility and BB will quickly become irrelevant. I don't think this is a game Mr. Heins or BB wishes to play. Boosterism is good and creating enthusiasm is the role of a good CEO. It is not a legitimate role of a CEO to misinform the pubic or shareholders. I think the public has long ago tired of being misled and will quickly turn on those who are less than truthful to them.
    Last edited by Enyigma; 02-15-2013 at 08:06 PM.
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  19. howarmat's Avatar

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    im sure he didnt state anything that wasnt correct from the data BB has. The words he used were very carefully choosen. There just isnt a way to read what "50% more than any previous launch" translates too
    ~Matt
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    I'm in the camp that would think sales are strong and will be better than what BB was initially expecting. I would guess they produced sufficient inventory to meet sales that would result in a profitable return on investment and perhaps a modest to fair uptick in market share. I am certainly not expecting blowout numbers or a huge bite out of Apple or Android sales. This result might disappoint BB enthusiasts but to me would say that BB is on the right track and can forge ahead with new products and new ideas to build on that market share.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackberry_Boy View Post
    I think there are many reasons why numbers will not be given out. The main one is how they will be interpreted. If it were not for the fact that I have had conversations with people on the sales desk in store an on the telephone at Rogers and they tell me the sales are outstanding, then I might think that BBRY is playing games. Call my naive, but I don't see that these people have any vested interest in feeding me a line of BS. Furthermore, I don't see any home town bias for BB that would suggest my experience is skewed. Over the past year the number of iPhones has increased, even though I am in Guelph, down the road from Waterloo.
    ?
    That makes little sense to me if the numbers are that "positive", then certainly most would interpret them as "positive", which is far better than the current interpretation which is either "ambiguous" or....quite frankly, implicitly negative. However, that's all good my friend, you have made up your mind, so what is there to discuss? I won't argue with the desk person, or the telephone person, even though I certainly wouldn't put much faith in their authority. You can certainly believe what you like, and we will just have to wait and see!

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackberry_Boy View Post
    I
    Agree that sales may not be as wildly high as some people are suggesting, but do we not think there is something positive happening?
    Well...you obviously do, and just as obviously, most here will try to....I mean you have people here who were constantly arguing that things were rosy BEFORE bb10, and that BB NEVER had any real problems.....80 mil. I say!!!!!!!! Unfortunately, I must play the pessimist, but it's what I believe. I think we are seeing something quite negative unfolding (for the long term), but again, since we disagree, we shall just have to see.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarpan View Post
    What do you consider a lukewarm launch though? You seem to be benchmarking the Z10's launch to Apple's launches. Of course they aren't going to sell 5 million Z10s already or anywhere close to it. They're also not going to give numbers since it will inevitably be compared negatively to Apple's launch, which was for many more countries and just has higher demand period. If BlackBerry can do 1/5th the numbers that Apple does with the iPhone 5, they're in really good shape.
    Hi, Zarpan. No, I wasn't comparing to Apple AT ALL. I wouldn't ever expect them to match Apple's launches, and of COURSE they were in limited release. I picked 5mil. out of a hat, to serve as an example. MY only metric would be: IS this good enough to turn the company around, and keep them alive in the long term. The fact is...the numbers have to be pretty good to do that....I honestly thought we'd be seeing a lot more buzz, and higher sales than I think we are getting from the faithful....and I thought it wouldn't be until the initial rush was over that we could judge if the long term sales were going to be enough, with enough converts. As it is....it looks bad to me from the start....again...they don't need anywhere near apple numbers, but they surely need a huge turnaround....and a complete change in attitude towards them.

    I don't think you are correct that they will not be interpreted correctly. They may or may not, but I think most people will do their best to. We all understand what countries we are talking about. If you think they are better off with the code of silence...well so be it. I certainly do not IF the numbers are truly great.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zarpan View Post
    Aside from that, we do know that the Z10 has been the best launch that BlackBerry has had in Canada and the UK. No raw numbers, but it has to be seen as a positive if early sales of the Z10 are better than any previous BlackBerry product.
    Again....for the...maybe 6th time from me alone, let alone others.....that's meaningless at this time, since nobody has any presented numbers for the previous launches.
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    Quote Originally Posted by howarmat View Post
    im sure he didnt state anything that wasnt correct from the data BB has. The words he used were very carefully choosen. There just isnt a way to read what "50% more than any previous launch" translates too
    Yes, and there are many ways that statement could be spun. Need to know specifics...and the numbers. Until then, it's meaningless. It surprises me that nobody has even been able to guestimate the old "record".....it truly is an obscure statement indeed.
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    ok after some digging i found that they sold about 150k 9800s the first weekend that might be the number they are going off of and that sounds resonable (225k z10s) for now.
    ~Matt
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    Quote Originally Posted by richardat View Post
    That makes little sense to me if the numbers are that "positive", then certainly most would interpret them as "positive", which is far better than the current interpretation which is either "ambiguous" or....quite frankly, implicitly negative.
    Oh come on Richard - you're much smarter, and more data oriented than that!

    You know full well that if Blackberry sold 500,000 BlackBerry 10 devices in the first week in Canada and the UK combined and that number was twice the previous record, the New York Times wouldn't run a story that says, "BlackBerry doubles previous sales with strong BlackBerry 10 launch!"

    They'd run a big headline that says, "BlackBerry 10 bombing - one 1/10th a many sold as iPhone 5s in first week" and forget to mention the increase over previous sales. Same with Eric Savitz and many of the other 'let's trash BlackBerry at every opportunity" reporters.
    ------------------------------------
    I like how BlackBerry 10 is evolving, but when are they going to fix BlackBerry Link for Mac?

    The fact that it doesn't reliably do what it's supposed to do ... most of the time ... is utterly appalling. The only consistency is the "Music not copied to Z10 message"
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