[belfastdispatcher]

the problem is that the carriers have to pay $$$ to RIM to give BIS access
In some way, the carrier would like to get money back from the customer

Oh they do in other ways don't worry. I get a lot included with my £41/month contract, even got my 9900 for free and I get 25mb daily of roaming data.

But then I found out they charge me £1/minute for international calls. They give with one hand and they take with the other.

Carriers do benefit from BIS too tho.

[mphillips828]

Maybe I read the comments wrong, but I am with Rogers in Canada, and this is what I am thinking about this...

If I used an iPhone I would be paying XX amount of dollars for a Data plan and with that I can use any data service, which now includes iMessage...so im paying for the data plan, im not PAYING for iMessage (as in no separate charges included)

Same goes for RIM and BIS...I am paying my monthly blackberry data plan, which is BIS, which is identical to paying for an iPhone data plan (although BIS involves more)...and BBM is just an application that makes use of my data plan (BIS)...ultimately I am going to be paying for my 1GB data plan either way, whether I use BBM or not...so in THAT sense BBM is free, there are no separate charges involved...

Topic got off hand a little from the main idea of whether RIM will drop BIS or modify it and allow BBM to run without BIS (which means my WIFI playbook can use it)

[gtpointer]

I agree with mphilips, in the UK we don't pay extra for BBM it's just a product we can use because of BIS. We also don't need pay extra for BIS - BB, iphone and android data plans are all the same in cost - the carriers may pay RIM for BIS but we don't - if BIS were scrapped the carriers wouldn't drop the plan price accordingly. So in essence it's free for the consumer...

Back on topic - hopefully BIS will go, to be replaced with some services provided by the RIM NOC a la playbook, as someone said earlier. I don't believe in all the data and battery efficiency malarkey especially considering how media heavy the web is now - just not worth it. No bis makes BBM, internet browsing, app downloading and apply usage (has anyone noticed how long whatsapp takes to go through BIS setup after a reboot?) so much easier.

[kill_9]

I really hope BIS is going to be out the door for BB10. There's no need for BIS from a consumer stand point. When iMesage, Gtalk, Whatsapp, etc. are all available for free (or with one time payment for Whatsapp), RIM can't make people pay to use BBM...

Does iMessage, Gtalk, and Whatsapp encrypt and compress your messages? Nope. You expect Research In Motion to provide BBM without any BIS/BES data plan; how is the company suppose ti earn revenue? Why don't you ask Apple to provide FREE iTunes accounts for their iPhones? Not quite the same thing but the essence of the point remains.

[reeneebob]

No. Its part of a feature set you pay for. You can get data plans that allow internet access and BBM, or social plans that allow only facebook app access, twitter app access, BBM, and other instant messaging. Either way you are paying for a data feature that allows BBM to work. Its not free.
If I take my sim out of my BB and go on wifi, BBM doesn't work.

If I take my sim out of my iphone and go on wifi, iMessage works.

So since I HAVE to subscribe to a RIM data plan to use BBM I will not classify it as free. If I could use it SIM free over wifi then yes, I would.

Sent from my BlackBerry Bold 9900 using Tapatalk

[gtpointer]

No. Its part of a feature set you pay for. You can get data plans that allow internet access and BBM, or social plans that allow only facebook app access, twitter app access, BBM, and other instant messaging. Either way you are paying for a data feature that allows BBM to work. Its not free.
If I take my sim out of my BB and go on wifi, BBM doesn't work.

If I take my sim out of my iphone and go on wifi, iMessage works.

So since I HAVE to subscribe to a RIM data plan to use BBM I will not classify it as free. If I could use it SIM free over wifi then yes, I would.

That's a ridiculous argument. If your logic were extended: to use imessage you need an iphone. It's part of the feature set of an iphone. You need to pay for an iphone (either up front or through carrier subsidies). Therefore imessage isn't free.

All you're saying is things aren't completely free in life. This we can take for granted. It isn't helpful to the discussion to labour this point. However, some things come along with something you're paying for anyway. These we can loosely call "free". On this basis, BIS and consequently BBM are free for some people, like the UK when you can't get plans without BIS. They simply don't exist. It just comes with standard phone contracts if you get a BB.

EDIT: also, this has got rather off topic as someone has mentioned before. As I've somewhat noted, we've essentially got into a discussion of the meaning of the word "free"

[_StephenBB81]

Android data plan - £5/month no bbm
Iphone data plan - £5/month no bbm
BIS data plan - £5/month with bbm

BBM is free the same way iMessage is free

NO it isn't and stop with this argument now

[_StephenBB81]

Hey so I just watched the Monday Brief...and Ashley mentioned that when diving around the Dev Alpha device they seemed to find BBM running or able to run without BIS..

Anyone know anything about this, and why hasnt this been covered on CrackBerry main page, because its a big deal if true!

The devAlpha's PIN's are most likely Registered by RIM, so they could be doing some sort of BES connection for PIN data

it isn't known yet exactly how it is done with the DevAlphas' which are not public release devices but controlled released devices

[reeneebob]

That's a ridiculous argument. If your logic were extended: to use imessage you need an iphone. It's part of the feature set of an iphone. You need to pay for an iphone (either up front or through carrier subsidies). Therefore imessage isn't free.
"

That's not what I said (not even close), and no you don't have to pay for an iphone, you can use imessage with an ipad, iphone or ipod. You don't need to subscribe to a specific data plan to use the feature. An iPhone can be deactivated and still use iMessage over wifi. That is a free feature that is part of the Apple experience but requires no subscription to a data plan. I can iMessage my husband using my iPod Touch to his iPhone or his iPod Touch.

However, BBM will not work unless you are subscribed to a specific type of data plan. If you don't subscribe to some form of RIM data, it dfoesnt work. Period. I have to put my sim card into my 9900 for BBM to work, even over wifi. That is not something needed with any of the Apple products. A free Apple ID and you can iMessage.


Sent from my BlackBerry Bold 9900 using Tapatalk

[belfastdispatcher]

Ah, poor RIM, they can't even give you something for free now. It seems to be impossible to give you added value to your BIS plan as you're already "paying" for it.

As I said, where do you draw the line and start calling a BIS dependent service from RIM FREE?

At Blackberry Travel? Blackberry Maps? Traffic?

RIM could give you a gold watch but it's not free, apparently you're paying for it.

[hurds]

No. Its part of a feature set you pay for. You can get data plans that allow internet access and BBM, or social plans that allow only facebook app access, twitter app access, BBM, and other instant messaging. Either way you are paying for a data feature that allows BBM to work. Its not free.
If I take my sim out of my BB and go on wifi, BBM doesn't work.

If I take my sim out of my iphone and go on wifi, iMessage works.

So since I HAVE to subscribe to a RIM data plan to use BBM I will not classify it as free. If I could use it SIM free over wifi then yes, I would.

Sent from my BlackBerry Bold 9900 using Tapatalk

Then how come iMessage doesn't work on my iPhone anymore since I got a BB? Its on wifi all the time.

[belfastdispatcher]

I think I have the perfect analogy:

You know when you walk into a shop and you see a bar of chocolate that has a yellow part at the top where it says "Extra 30% FREE"
That 30% is BBM, it's free but you can't eat it without paying for the bar of chocolate first.
If one doesn't want it one can choose the normal size chocolate bar without the added value of the 30%(bbm) but one will still pay the same price for it.

Now if you can't see that, I'm done.

[belfastdispatcher]

That's not what I said (not even close), and no you don't have to pay for an iphone, you can use imessage with an ipad, iphone or ipod. You don't need to subscribe to a specific data plan to use the feature. An iPhone can be deactivated and still use iMessage over wifi. That is a free feature that is part of the Apple experience but requires no subscription to a data plan. I can iMessage my husband using my iPod Touch to his iPhone or his iPod Touch.

However, BBM will not work unless you are subscribed to a specific type of data plan. If you don't subscribe to some form of RIM data, it dfoesnt work. Period. I have to put my sim card into my 9900 for BBM to work, even over wifi. That is not something needed with any of the Apple products. A free Apple ID and you can iMessage.


Sent from my BlackBerry Bold 9900 using Tapatalk

I think his point was that if you use this logic imessage is not free because you have to pay for the product first be it iphone, ipad, ipod. While you don't need a data plan you need to buy the product you want to use it on. And you don't use it for free on wifi, you also pay for the wifi.


See why this logic is wrong? Using this logic you can't call anything free.

[Magnetic_dud]

I tell you an example in my country with my carrier.

Common people: 1000 SMS + 1GB data = 10 euro / month
You want BIS? Then you are a business man, must take the business plan: 200 SMS + 1gb data = 15 euro / month

(Of course in my country there are other operators, like H3G, that will give you BIS with no additional cost on any plan, but that's not the case of my carrier)

[_StephenBB81]

I think I have the perfect analogy:

You know when you walk into a shop and you see a bar of chocolate that has a yellow part at the top where it says "Extra 30% FREE"
That 30% is BBM, it's free but you can't eat it without paying for the bar of chocolate first.
If one doesn't want it one can choose the normal size chocolate bar without the added value of the 30%(bbm) but one will still pay the same price for it.

Now if you can't see that, I'm done.

you're being as bad as an American talking about the world based on American views

in YOUR country BIS doesn't add extra fees to your data plan, in other countries it does, BlackBerry pretty much the only restricted phone off of getting full access to most pay as you go plans because you must purchase a specific plan for the BlackBerry in other countries your analogy is completely flawed

it is more like your Car dealer is throwing in snow tires for free with your car, for YOU they are a free addition and for everyone buying from that dealer it costs the same, but changing dealers those tires may come with an additional fee, maybe that fee will be rolled into the car costs, maybe they'll tell you out right how much it is, or maybe they don't offer snow tires, you're welcome to buy the car, but it might not be as functional.

BBM is part of their PIN to PIN infrastructure
BlackBerry Travel, Maps, Traffic only require a PIN for device registration, that could easily be mapped to a BBID over using a PIN without changing any of the design of the apps, so they are nothing like BBM.

as for the comparison to iMessage,
They are very different, Apple actually does offer this as a free, one does not need a dataplan, one must just sign up, just like gmail, though with iMessage to use it for free without an iPhone you must register an email address not a phone number to use it

[belfastdispatcher]

you're being as bad as an American talking about the world based on American views

in YOUR country BIS doesn't add extra fees to your data plan, in other countries it does, BlackBerry pretty much the only restricted phone off of getting full access to most pay as you go plans because you must purchase a specific plan for the BlackBerry in other countries your analogy is completely flawed

it is more like your Car dealer is throwing in snow tires for free with your car, for YOU they are a free addition and for everyone buying from that dealer it costs the same, but changing dealers those tires may come with an additional fee, maybe that fee will be rolled into the car costs, maybe they'll tell you out right how much it is, or maybe they don't offer snow tires, you're welcome to buy the car, but it might not be as functional.

BBM is part of their PIN to PIN infrastructure
BlackBerry Travel, Maps, Traffic only require a PIN for device registration, that could easily be mapped to a BBID over using a PIN without changing any of the design of the apps, so they are nothing like BBM.

as for the comparison to iMessage,
They are very different, Apple actually does offer this as a free, one does not need a dataplan, one must just sign up, just like gmail, though with iMessage to use it for free without an iPhone you must register an email address not a phone number to use it

Sorry man, you're wrong on this one. Ignoring the fact that BBM is advertised as a Free Instant Messenger(and Rim would be sued for false advertisement if it wasn't free) the price of BIS is irrelevant, BBM is an added value service since you can't get money off if you don't use it.

Take Yahoo Messenger and Google Talk, nobody can argue they're not free but to use them on a Blackberry you need BIS, does that mean you're paying for them? They are dependent on BIS just as BBM, they don't work on wifi only. Pretty much everything needs BIS at the moment on a BlackBerry, does that mean they're not free?

Think for a minute. In the begining there were BIS data plans, then BBM was invented and offered at no extra cost. How is that not Free?

[sam_b77]

I can only speak from what happens in my country.
There is no distinction between BIS and data plan. In India we only get a BIS plan which is bundled with a data plan. Thing is with or without BIS, the data plans cost the same.
There is however a service charge you can pay for BBM only in India. It's around $1 per month. This only gives BBM and no data at all. No browsing, no emails etc. Just BBM.
In that light BBM could be defined as a paid service. Just FYI Belfast.

[belfastdispatcher]

I can only speak from what happens in my country.
There is no distinction between BIS and data plan. In India we only get a BIS plan which is bundled with a data plan. Thing is with or without BIS, the data plans cost the same.
There is however a service charge you can pay for BBM only in India. It's around $1 per month. This only gives BBM and no data at all. No browsing, no emails etc. Just BBM.
In that light BBM could be defined as a paid service. Just FYI Belfast.

I would call that the exception that confirms the rule

So basically you can have BBM without BIS in some cases already?

[sam_b77]

I would call that the exception that confirms the rule

So basically you can have BBM without BIS in some cases already?

That would depend upon your definition of BIS. If one takes BlackBerry Internet Services to be defined as Internet access on device then yes, BBM is available without BIS.
However, to my understanding BIS actually has two components. One is access to BB server and activation of BB services and the other is a GPRS pack from the carrier over which the BB reaches the RIM gateway.

The GPRS/Edge/3G/4G policies are set by the carrier. So in my case the carrier gives me BB services plus Edge service on my data plan.
Since India is a price sensitive market, many people don't even want to pay for any data services(read students) , but they all want BBM as BBM is fast becoming the de-facto social network in India. Maybe RIM saw an opening here and offered limited BB services to the carriers at a very low cost, which the carriers passed on. It works out for RIM as they are able to sell a lot of devices to people who want BBM but can't or don't want to pay $12 for full data access.
Carriers play ball as India is a very competitive market and there are a lot of carriers here so they have to fight for customers.

[reeneebob]

Then how come iMessage doesn't work on my iPhone anymore since I got a BB? Its on wifi all the time.

Couldn't tell you. Works on all my Apple devices.

Sent from my BlackBerry Bold 9900 using Tapatalk

[reeneebob]

you're being as bad as an American talking about the world based on American views



in YOUR country BIS doesn't add extra fees to your data plan, in other countries it does, BlackBerry pretty much the only restricted phone off of getting full access to most pay as you go plans because you must purchase a specific plan for the BlackBerry in other countries your analogy is completely flawed



it is more like your Car dealer is throwing in snow tires for free with your car, for YOU they are a free addition and for everyone buying from that dealer it costs the same, but changing dealers those tires may come with an additional fee, maybe that fee will be rolled into the car costs, maybe they'll tell you out right how much it is, or maybe they don't offer snow tires, you're welcome to buy the car, but it might not be as functional.



BBM is part of their PIN to PIN infrastructure

BlackBerry Travel, Maps, Traffic only require a PIN for device registration, that could easily be mapped to a BBID over using a PIN without changing any of the design of the apps, so they are nothing like BBM.



as for the comparison to iMessage,

They are very different, Apple actually does offer this as a free, one does not need a dataplan, one must just sign up, just like gmail, though with iMessage to use it for free without an iPhone you must register an email address not a phone number to use it

Thank you! However I fear we are fighting a losing battle trying to explain this

Sent from my BlackBerry Bold 9900 using Tapatalk

[_StephenBB81]

Thank you! However I fear we are fighting a losing battle trying to explain this

Sent from my BlackBerry Bold 9900 using Tapatalk

I would agree

any point made to the contrary will be an exception to the rule

[belfastdispatcher]

I give up, I don't know how you see BBM as not being free. It wasn't always part of the BIS package. Rim offered it at no extra cost with BIS. That to me it means it's free.

Today you think it's part of the package but it wasn't always there. And when they added it to BIS they never charged for it.

I'm out of this thread.

[reeneebob]

I give up, I don't know how you see BBM as not being free. It wasn't always part of the BIS package. Rim offered it at no extra cost with BIS. That to me it means it's free.



Today you think it's part of the package but it wasn't always there. And when they added it to BIS they never charged for it.



I'm out of this thread.

And...scene.

If it was free one could use it without subscribing to BIS. If it was free you could take a deactivated BB, turn on wifi while sitting at Starbucks and use BBM.

You can't do that.

Period.

And in the 4+ years I've owned BBs its always been bundled into BIS as part of the feature set you pay for. Only recently have social only plans without browser access been around that also bundle into its price BBM. You still have to subscribe to a form of a BB data plan to use BBM. To me that is the opposite of free.

Sent from my BlackBerry Bold 9900 using Tapatalk

[_StephenBB81]

Well I suppose BBM is free in the same sense that I get to watch CBC on my cable package, I don't pay for CBC but it comes with my cable package so it is free..

I also have unlimited usage of my turn signal when I am driving my car, I don't even need to be turning and I can use it, as it is free with the purchase of my car