[kbz1960]

The issue is whether BlackBerry should voluntarily limit their Classic / Bold "iconic" design to 3.5 inches in screen size.

The argument in favour of keeping their current format is that Classic users do not need screen length based on what they use their phones for. It could also be true that the market for a PKB phone is finite and declining regardless of screen size and a larger screened Classic would be no more or less popular than their current model.

And you did notice? All those android PKB phones are landscape sliders so even a lot of PKB lovers still want more screen.

[redlightblinking]

I think that there's room for both PKB and VKB approaches, but BlackBerry seems way too committed to the PKB at the moment.

Not sure I understand your statement of "way too" commited. They are commited, but the fact they also have done, and will still do full glass means they recognize both, but Chen had to do something. As a full glass phone, they were being nearly completely ignored, and pissing off their core people at the same time. It's slow process, but at least Chen said "let's at least get some sales from the people who are WAITING to buy from us by making the thing we still do the best". Can't blame him for that.

VKBs ultimately are faster instruments to input text in a smartphone-.

Faster ,sure. More accurate in all situations? I like typing on the Z as long as I've got two hands and I can stare directly at it all the time and I'm sitting still and I'm not typing words that need to be corrected. Unfortunately I'm not always in that situation.

But the transition from PKB to VKB can be tough, so people resist it, then get used to it,

I've gotten used to cold weather and doing various fluid changes on my car. I still don't like either of them but they come as a package with the choice I've made to live in a place I prefer and to drive the vehicle I prefer.

That's the problem with the idea that there can be or will be a VKB renaissance. OEMs thought that there would be, and I did, too. I remember the Samsung Stratosphere. Trust me, if Sammy had seen the sales out of that device that they would out of the Note, there would be a flagship PKB Samsung Android smartphone today.

I'm not sure that anyone is talking about a "renaissance." (whatever that might look like). But I do think there are always going to be people that had buttons and still prefer them for various reasons, and some that never had one.....if ever given the chance by being exposed to another option they didn't know existed....might choose one.

[lnichols]

Wow, great find. Thanks for posting. Yep......proves that nobody wants a PKB.

Just ignore the fact that they are all horizontal sliders with zero compromise in screen real estate. None of them have a square screen and a PKB on the bottom. None of them are massive sellers either. So the only thing that article proves is BlackBerry's PKB offerings are not even the type that people would want.

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[pantlesspenguin]

Speed dial. Touch screen are good but physical one button speed dial is better.

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What's wrong with virtual one touch speed dial?

[ioan_calin]

The Classic is so much better than the Z10, in many ways: battery life, stability, excellent keyboard, and in general, I think it's a more realiable phone. Had the Z10 for a year and a half, and by the time I replaced it with the Classic, it had a lot of issues, the battery life being the worst of all. Undoubtedly, the screen on the Z10 is much better than the one of the Classic, but I got over it, since I found no glitches with the new Classic, and everything is so much fluent. Just my opinion...

[Bbnivende]

And you did notice? All those android PKB phones are landscape sliders so even a lot of PKB lovers still want more screen.

Sure, I would love to see a revival of the original Torch. I would probably buy that before buying a Classic. The trouble for BlackBerry is that if I buy a new Torch I am not buying a Classic. It could be that the new Victoria or a new Torch might actually bring in some current Android owners. I agree that there are PKB lovers out there who want a longer screen but not a wider screen. I think that Landscape PKB's have very limited appeal - at least for me they do.

[redlightblinking]

True. We will soon be in an era, certainly when the VOLTE conversion is done and all our old phones are rendered useless, where most people will simply never have seen or used a physical keyboard phone and won't consider it. Most of those who take the time to consider it will reject the idea because of the screen real estate that is lost to a physical keyboard. Modern phones are mobile computing devices and multimedia consumption devices as much as they are communication devices.

That era of VOLTE will come with a LONG transition. Remember when they phased out analog? They're arent' going to just up and kick off customers off their network.

And, the era where most people will simply never have seen or used a physical keyboard phone is NOW. Most users of smart phones came AFTER the iPhone revolution, and many AFTER BlackBerry disappeared from ads and stores

Yes, devices are multimedia as well as communication devices, but some care more about the later than the former.

]

The passport was one attempt at trying to offer a solution. If people value physical keyboard it will be wildly successful and other platforms will begin to offer such a device.

If it remains a niche device the obvious conclusion is that most people don't want a physical keyboard on their phone anymore.

How is that the obvious conclusion? The problem with the passport is that it was WIDE. It's basically a geometry problem. How do you offer a PKB and lots of screen space? There are various options: slider, wider, longer or just flat out massive in all directions.

A physical keyboard detracts from how I use my phone today.

A physical keyboard enhances how I use my phone today.

Different people have different priorities. While you can watch a movie on your phone (I have a TV for that) without seeing letterboxing effects, I can start dozens of tasks with the squeeze of a thumb to a shortcut button and finish all of them with one hand tied behind my back. If I want to watch a movie while stuck somewhere besides in front of my many TV's, I pull out one of my many other incredibly cheap options for electronics.

You may love physical keyboard phones - it is great that you have a choice - but this isn't going to save the handset division.
Posted via CB10

I agree that aspect alone isn't' going to do it. One step at a time.

[Bbnivende]

I would like to say that the new OS has made a noticeable improvement to my Z10's battery life. Not to a Classic level but more or less like an iPhone 5 type of level.

In defence of the Classic, if you do not do a lot of media and scrolling is not an issue then the small screen is perfectly adequate. The Classic screen is better than an iPhone 4 screen for example and yet both screens are the same size at 3.5 inches on the diagonal. You can display a larger font on a Classic than you can on an iPhone 5 and not have to scroll side to side.

[BergerKing]

I look back a few years ago, and you could find posts where I swore it was a physical keyboard only for me.

Cue some time later. I discovered haptic feedback on a virtual keyboard. This gave me some inputs as I typed on it, and I quickly adapted to the virtual world.

Now that this obstacle was overcome, I could do things on a phone that just don't translate as well to one with a physical keyboard as it does with a full screen. It is freedom to rotate a screen to different views, watch video in its intended format, play games ad they were designed.

I'm sure once users adapted to the full screen BB, they felt much the same. I, for one, would no longer step back to a pkb device.

[redlightblinking]

Just ignore the fact that they are all horizontal sliders with zero compromise in screen real estate. None of them have a square screen and a PKB on the bottom. None of them are massive sellers either. So the only thing that article proves is BlackBerry's PKB offerings are not even the type that people would want.

Posted via CB10

I didn't ignore that fact. I'd LOVE a slider. The thing is, none of those phones mentioned in the article were not sliders so people had no way to comment about that other than bringing up BlackBerry's that they've switched to

The article doesn't prove that BlackBerry's PKB offering are "not even the type that people would want" because If you had read it, you'd see those comments praising the BlackBerry. Plus, it's an Android article with Android users mostly commenting.

[redlightblinking]

What's wrong with virtual one touch speed dial?

It doesn't exist. You have to wake your phone first, then get to some sort of screen with that shortcut. Buttons are always there waiting for you to press them....like a fire alarm.

[redlightblinking]

And that doesn't help blackberry sell theirs at all.

And......how is that? Had you read the article you'd see that it in fact DID help BlackBerry sell theirs, as users complaining about Android phones not longer having PKB went to BlackBerry and loved it.

You might as well be saying that if Ford stopped making hybrids, it doesn't help Toyota at all, because those were Ford users....they like Fords.

[eyesopen1111]

...

I've gotten used to cold weather and doing various fluid changes on my car. I still don't like either of them but they come as a package with the choice I've made to live in a place I prefer and to drive the vehicle I prefer.

The fact that people who switch from PKB to VKB usually don't want to switch back is an important fact to consider. That's because, for the most part, these newly converted VKB users end up even happier using the VKB. It's not like they're stuck with VKB phones, they prefer VKB phones and VKB input. Just look at people texting their friends--they are not frustrated by the VKB experience, they are loving it. Compared to the large numbers of all-touch smartphones, there are relatively few people who get bluetooth PKB solutions, though some people who really miss PKBs do. If the VKB resistance level were stronger, we would've seen more PKB smartphone sales and more use of PKB replacement solutions like Bluetooth PKB cases and the like. But mostly what we see in the modern world are happy VKB users who are swiping their texts to each other with ease.

[redlightblinking]

I look back a few years ago, and you could find posts where I swore it was a physical keyboard only for me.

Cue some time later. I discovered haptic feedback on a virtual keyboard. This gave me some inputs as I typed on it, and I quickly adapted to the virtual world.

Now that this obstacle was overcome, I could do things on a phone that just don't translate as well to one with a physical keyboard as it does with a full screen. It is freedom to rotate a screen to different views, watch video in its intended format, play games ad they were designed.

I'm sure once users adapted to the full screen BB, they felt much the same. I, for one, would no longer step back to a pkb device.

Yep. Video and games. That's the trade off. Until they make phones that can stretch they'll never get around that.

As a user with two full screen phones, I use them for those mentioned services, but when I need to quickly make a call or bang out a lot of communications, I go to the keyboard.

[pantlesspenguin]

It doesn't exist. You have to wake your phone first, then get to some sort of screen with that shortcut. Buttons are always there waiting for you to press them....like a fire alarm.

Lol "get to some sort of screen?" You mean your home screen that's right there when you wake the phone up? I haven't used a pkb in awhile so I didn't realize you could press the button without waking the phone up first. I would think that would make for some ****/pocket dials. No thanks.

How about no-touch dialing?

VID_20150301_093030.mp4:

[redlightblinking]

Lol "get to some sort of screen?" You mean your home screen that's right there when you wake the phone up? I haven't used a pkb in awhile so I didn't realize you could press the button without waking the phone up first. I would think that would make for some ****/pocket dials. No thanks.

How about no-touch dialing?

The one touch requires you hold it in for a full second, so it reduces those pocket dials.

The "no touch" dialing is nice if you like to take longer than one touch dialing and don't' mind talking into your phone in a public area.

lol.

[pantlesspenguin]

Yep. Video and games. That's the trade off. Until they make phones that can stretch they'll never get around that.

As a user with two full screen phones, I use them for those mentioned services, but when I need to quickly make a call or bang out a lot of communications, I go to the keyboard.

And that's your preference. I'm faster on SwiftKey/BB10 keyboard than I ever was on a physical keyboard. I took a set of courses over the summer and banged out class notes on my Nexus 7 tablet. My professor was curious and asked to see what all I had typed (probably to make sure I wasn't playing games) and she was amazed at the content. I can't type as much on my iPad Air since it's a larger device and I have tiny girlie hands. But I can fly on phones. It's all muscle memory. I can type a few sentences without looking at the screen and have it be accurate, but I'm not sure if that's more to do with the auto predict engine rather than my own blind accuracy.

[pantlesspenguin]

The one touch requires you hold it in for a full second, so it reduces those pocket dials.

The "no touch" dialing is nice if you like to take longer than one touch dialing and don't' mind talking into your phone in a public area.

lol.

.... If you mind talking into your phone in a public area than why would you be initiating a phone call there? You kinda have to talk into your phone for those.

So you have to hold the button in for a second. How is that faster than waking your phone up and tapping an icon (assuming you don't have a pin or shape to enter) ? If anything it might save just a fraction of a second.

[redlightblinking]

And that's your preference. I'm faster on SwiftKey/BB10 keyboard than I ever was on a physical keyboard. I took a set of courses over the summer and banged out class notes on my Nexus 7 tablet. My professor was curious and asked to see what all I had typed (probably to make sure I wasn't playing games) and she was amazed at the content. I can't type as much on my iPad Air since it's a larger device and I have tiny girlie hands. But I can fly on phones. It's all muscle memory. I can type a few sentences without looking at the screen and have it be accurate, but I'm not sure if that's more to do with the auto predict engine rather than my own blind accuracy.

I've gotten very good on the Z10 as well, the problem is I'm not always holding it with two hands or in optimal typing situations. After all, it is a mobile device and some people use them while being mobile. (not sitting in classes, etc)

[redlightblinking]

.... If you mind talking into your phone in a public area than why would you be initiating a phone call there? You kinda have to talk into your phone for those. .

But you don't have to speak out loud their name, possibly multiple times.

So you have to hold the button in for a second. How is that faster than waking your phone up and tapping an icon (assuming you don't have a pin or shape to enter) ? If anything it might save just a fraction of a second.

Because you only did one operation. The phone wake itself takes half of that or even all of that time depending on how the phone wakes and the possible lag of the phone you might be using, and then you do the next thing.....assuming it's right there waiting for you. If the phone is in some other state from previous use....you must find the shortcut you created. The button never, ever changes. As you admit, you haven't used a PKB in a while and don't know the comparison times.

[pantlesspenguin]

I've gotten very good on the Z10 as well, the problem is I'm not always holding it with two hands or in optimal typing situations. After all, it is a mobile devices and some people use them while being mobile. (not sitting in classes, etc)

You got me on the one handed use now since I have a Note, but on smaller Android phones it was easy. I could still type fast on my LG G2 (which had a 5.2 inch screen) while using one hand and wearing touch screen compatible gloves.

[Norg]

Agree with you BergerKing at post #160, however I must be a strange bird...I used a Z10 with its supposed best in class VKP for about a year and enjoyed it for the most part. I then moved over to a Q10 and enjoyed that experience. Finally, only a few days ago I migrated to an AT&T Passport. And although this square device possesses a hybrid keyboard, I've quickly come to realize that it's so much more clever and fun to use than I imagined. The PP actually rotates and let's you use the narrow keyboard as the swipe or scroll area...simply ingenious.

Posted from my kick@ss AT&T PassPort.

[pantlesspenguin]

But you don't have to speak out loud their name, possibly multiple times.



Because you only did one operation. The phone wake itself takes half of that or even all of that time depending on how the phone wakes and the possible lag of the phone you might be using, and then you do the next thing.....assuming it's right there waiting for you. If the phone is in some other state from previous use....you must find the shortcut you created. The button never, ever changes. As you admit, you haven't used a PKB in a while and don't know the comparison times.

My basic phone etiquette does have me saying their name at least once. "Hello Dr Ackerman, it's pantlesspenguin..."

I don't think you understand how home screens work. Everything stays the same. I'm not one to change my home screens around that drastically from device to device, or even change them around all the time on the same device. If I wanted to call my parents really quickly after finishing this post I would hit the home button and my thumb knows exactly where to go for their direct dial shortcut.

[Bbnivende]

Yep. Video and games. That's the trade off. Until they make phones that can stretch they'll never get around that.

As a user with two full screen phones, I use them for those mentioned services, but when I need to quickly make a call or bang out a lot of communications, I go to the keyboard.

I am not quite understanding. Most buyers of Smartphones want or can afford only one phone.

If you are an employee getting a free company phone or buying a personal phone and you are adept at using a VKB would you naturally prefer an all touch phone ?

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[Chuck Finley69]

Look, nobody is denying that all touch isn't the preferred model by most people. I love my Blackberry PKB for what it does best email and/or texting. When I got all touch phone, I got an LG G2. I never even considered a Blackberry. Screensize was important. But so were apps. Even through Amazon, the app selection is crappy. The apps I and most people need/want aren't included on the Amazon site. Try finding, top 5 US institutions where people keep their money and two aren't even available, two are the android ports and one is native. If most common type of apps based on usage aren't even available, what's the point. Blackberry needs to sell hardware at profit so they're going for the easiest sale, people that are comfortable with PKB and don't care about the apps. If they're still using BBOS7 devices, that pretty much fits the bill. They have NO competition in the PKB market, therefore, BlackBerry owns the market, however small. The majority of people will choose any other all touch device over all touch BlackBerry because there is better value. I can buy any number of $50-100 android devices on low end with no contract as well as better mid and high end devices with or without contract. The all-touch Rio/Leap is a gamble because as Z10 replacement there are better Android choices for low to mid enterprise buyers. Majority of enterprise buyers have to look at low to mid price range because of ROI justification and if employee doesn't like, it makes pushing employees to BYOD easier. This results in minimal outlay by company which is CFO dream. Imagine companies getting people to BYOC with your desktop, laptop or tablet. Blackberry can only hope Rio/Leap sells or it makes sense to exit all touch and/or PKB market all together. Other than phones, BlackBerry is a software company. Maybe they sell phone business, if there's a buyer, like Motorola and/or HP Palm did...

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