[tinochiko]

Yeah and Blackberry really nailed the pricing with the Q5....

Pre-Chen no, Post Chen - Z3

Posted via CB10

[donnation]

Blend/Android (and ios compatibility, Blend, Blend

Difference being Apple locks you into their ecosystem, i.e. if you want to switch to another phone/get another tablet/buy another laptop then your ecosystem is gone, BlackBerry wants to create a unified ecosystem so you can switch devices seamlessly but remain using their OS

Apples downfall is that the biggest predicted growth in smartphone market is in developing markets, where Internet is spreading at an increasing rate at cheaper prices (See Google Loon) and interestingly enough, these are the makers where BlackBerry has the majority of its market share, unless Apple decide to go really cheap on their devices, they're blocking themselves from real growth, whatever their current sales numbers are

Posted via CB10

Do you honestly think that Blend is going to work better with iOS or OSX devices then iOS and OSX devices themselves? When Blend is released I guess we'll see but the last time BB had an "answer" to using your BB with a computer was BBLink and that program is complete trash. While Blend is different than BBLink I'll reserve judgment when I see it as BB hasn't exactly been worth much here in the past.

[tinochiko]

Do you honestly think that Blend is going to work better with iOS or OSX devices then iOS and OSX devices themselves? When Blend is released I guess we'll see but the last time BB had an "answer" to using your BB with a computer was BBLink and that program is complete trash. While Blend is different than BBLink I'll reserve judgment when I see it as BB hasn't exactly been worth much here in the past.

And when they related Link, they were burning cash, people were being fired left right and centre, today as of the last quarters finances, they are on the road to profitability, people are no longer being fired, they are hiring left right and centre, and so yes just like the Z3, I belive that Blend will be a well executed product, fair enough on reserving judgement

I honestly believe Blend is the better product because you're not restricted to mac/windows, you as a user get to decide where you want your ecosystem to be, scratch that , you get to carry your ecosystem around with you!

And please, take a look at BlackBerry's recent investments and partnership, you'll notice a common theme - "not only functions with BlackBerry devices, but also iOS and Android", yes maybe BlackBerry is taking this road because they can't afford to build/maintain their own system but I believe this strategy will win out in the end because more and more users want choices and options

Posted via CB10

[Glenn Biddle]

Apple must be the best phones because they sell more of them than anybody else and McDonald's must make the best hamburgers because they've sold more hamburgers than anyone else even though their hamburgers aren't fit for human consumption.

Posted via CB10

[donnation]

Apple must be the best phones because they sell more of them than anybody else and McDonald's must make the best hamburgers because they've sold more hamburgers than anyone else even though their hamburgers aren't fit for human consumption.

Posted via CB10

Blackberry must be the worst phones because they sell the fewest of them - See why that analogy doesn't work?

[tinochiko]

Blackberry must be the worst phones because they sell the fewest of them - See why that analogy doesn't work?

Yes.. where you said BlackBerry sells the fewest, because they don't...

Unless you're comparing with the the top two dominant platforms but that wouldn't make any sense, local Pubs in England/Diners in America don't sell as many burgers McDonald's or Burger king but in some towns they wouldn't have a burger anywhere else

Posted via CB10

[UKAlltheWay]

Apple must be the best phones because they sell more of them than anybody else and McDonald's must make the best hamburgers because they've sold more hamburgers than anyone else even though their hamburgers aren't fit for human consumption.

Posted via CB10

Just lurking around these forums,...I've seen this ridiculous analogy trotted out and shot down a dozen times. But it keeps coming back!

[tinochiko]

Just lurking around these forums,...I've seen this ridiculous analogy trotted out and shot down a dozen times. But it keeps coming back!

I know right! Humans consume McDonald's burgers just fine!

Posted via CB10

[MarsupilamiX]

Blend/Android (and ios compatibility, Blend, Blend

Difference being Apple locks you into their ecosystem, i.e. if you want to switch to another phone/get another tablet/buy another laptop then your ecosystem is gone, BlackBerry wants to create a unified ecosystem so you can switch devices seamlessly but remain using their OS

You definitely don't understand what an ecosystem represents, if you think that Blend will be a suitable alternative to the Google/MS/Apple ecosystem.
The inherent limitations of Blend will prevent that...

You also seem to have the misconception, that the other companies have a locked down ecosystem.
This might be partly true for specialised services, like the Apple iPay, but when it comes down to Google services for example, or MS Office, then you'll see really fast that I can get that on every platform, except the BlackBerry.

It's just that the integration with your own platform/OS/services is usually better than on the platforms and then you have proprietary services on top.
Now Blend, which has the inherent limitation of being as useful as your app store and ecosystem on the BlackBerry, doesn't even compete in the slightest.
It is however a nice continuation of the Bridge concept... But definitely not even close to an answer in terms of ecosystem, when we look at the competition.

It would also be a strange thought, if you think that the Blend integration will be superior to the in-house integration of Apple and Microsoft.

Apples downfall is that the biggest predicted growth in smartphone market is in developing markets, where Internet is spreading at an increasing rate at cheaper prices (See Google Loon) and interestingly enough, these are the makers where BlackBerry has the majority of its market share, unless Apple decide to go really cheap on their devices, they're blocking themselves from real growth, whatever their current sales numbers are

Posted via CB10

If you describe that as Apple's downfall, I have the slight feeling that you neither understand their business model, nor why they didn't go significantly cheaper with the 5C.
(Hint: the 5C very probably wasn't meant to break sales records by itself. It was meant to make the 5S even more attractive (which business man would ever buy a 5C???) while providing some colourful choices).

It's correct that most of the growth in terms of user numbers, will happen in emerging markets and it is also correct that most of those customers sit on a tighter budget than in "developed" economies.
What you don't seem to grasp, is that Apple prefers to sell 10s of millions of devices with a gross profit of 400$ instead of 10s of millions of devices with a gross profit of 50$ (cheap Androids).


Apple would never be able to have that share of the profits made in the smartphone market, if they wouldn't sell their devices the way they do.

Apple also has a pretty straight forward strategy for their midrange devices: the iPhone that is 2 generations old, is their midrange device.
And economically, that makes a lot of sense, because they can just continue to produce what they produced for years already.
Huge effects of economies of scale apply here, and huge discounts for their bulk orders as well. Those are just very simple exemples why it's absolutely logical for Apple to not bother with low-end device.

Simply said: they don't need it.
And you also seem to ignore that potential customers in and upwards of the middle-class in emerging markets, can afford the iPhone without much trouble.
Apple doesn't need incredibly high volume sales, to generate the profits they do.

Pre-Chen no, Post Chen - Z3

Posted via CB10

The Z3 is still overpriced compared to other Android and WP devices in the market place it competes in.
For a device with such a low price, it doesn't sell exactly well nonetheless.

The Z3 was a step in the right direction, but if you think that the phone is already enough, then you are painstakingly misinformed.

BlackBerry suffers from an inexistant ecosystem and app store in emerging markets as well and the Z3 is at least 50% more expensive than a comparable Android and Windows Phone device.
Now, relatively compared to the Q5.... The price is acceptable.
But that wasn't hard, since the Q5 very probably was their most overpriced smartphone in BlackBerry's history, closely followed by the Z30.

Posted via CB10

[MarsupilamiX]

Apple must be the best phones because they sell more of them than anybody else and McDonald's must make the best hamburgers because they've sold more hamburgers than anyone else even though their hamburgers aren't fit for human consumption.

Posted via CB10

With the huge difference, that McDonald's wouldn't sell nearly as many Hamburgers, if their pricing strategy would resemble the one from Apple.
A Cheeseburger from McDonald's costs about 1 Euro where I live.
A Cheeseburger from TGI Friday's (and they aren't the best nonetheless, but there is no comparison with MCD) costs about 10 Euro where I live.

So yeah, the analogy is pretty much worthless, because the overlapping similarities are basically inexistant.

I know right! Humans consume McDonald's burgers just fine!

Posted via CB10

So, how is having an iPhone detrimental for your physical health again?
(ofc, we have to ignore the higher possibility of getting mugged because you have an iPhone. Under these circumstances, having a BlackBerry definitely augments the odds of never getting mugged because of a phone.)

Posted via CB10

[donnation]

And when they related Link, they were burning cash, people were being fired left right and centre, today as of the last quarters finances, they are on the road to profitability, people are no longer being fired, they are hiring left right and centre, and so yes just like the Z3, I belive that Blend will be a well executed product, fair enough on reserving judgement

I honestly believe Blend is the better product because you're not restricted to mac/windows, you as a user get to decide where you want your ecosystem to be, scratch that , you get to carry your ecosystem around with you!

And please, take a look at BlackBerry's recent investments and partnership, you'll notice a common theme - "not only functions with BlackBerry devices, but also iOS and Android", yes maybe BlackBerry is taking this road because they can't afford to build/maintain their own system but I believe this strategy will win out in the end because more and more users want choices and options

Posted via CB10

Lol you can't just say "oh, that stuff is in the past and it doesn't matter." It does matter and just because they have a new guy at the helm who at this point has mainly been a lot of talk and the release of ONE device and a rehash of a 3 year old phone. Point being you can't say that none of the things Blackberry has done over the last couple of years don't matter because they do.

[Tre Lawrence]

Apple must be the best phones because they sell more of them than anybody else and McDonald's must make the best hamburgers because they've sold more hamburgers than anyone else even though their hamburgers aren't fit for human consumption.

Posted via CB10

No. Not the McDonald's analogy.

Oh dear...

[Tre Lawrence]

Just lurking around these forums,...I've seen this ridiculous analogy trotted out and shot down a dozen times. But it keeps coming back!

I give up. Seriously.

Every time someone uses that sad analogy, kittens die.

[Tre Lawrence]

With the huge difference, that McDonald's wouldn't sell nearly as many Hamburgers, if their pricing strategy would resemble the one from Apple.
A Cheeseburger from McDonald's costs about 1 Euro where I live.
A Cheeseburger from TGI Friday's (and they aren't the best nonetheless, but there is no comparison with MCD) costs about 10 Euro where I live.

So yeah, the analogy is pretty much worthless, because the overlapping similarities are basically inexistant.

Can we sticky this? Or make understanding this concept a prerequisite for site membership?

Just say "NO" to bad fast food analogies!

[--TommesJay--]

Nah, BlackBerry's relative pricing is definitely worse. Like, there is currently no other manufacturer who got the pricing THAT wrong.
Worst ecosystem, worst customer service, worst app store and worst touchscreen flagship in the whole marketplace.
BlackBerry is basically so far behind in those basic categories, that every flagship device from BlackBerry will be overpriced compared to the rest of the market.

I agree with the point on expandable storage though. It's pretty much the only thing that keeps me from upgrading to the iPhone 6+.
Cloud storage is no substitute for a 64GB+ card that works offline, per drag&drop, on all devices with a usb port/card reader and can be swapped from device to device.

It just doesn't compare in the slightest, and having the option for expandable storage is probably a must for me when I consider a new device.



From a quick look, it seems that the iPhone 6+ performs just as well as the Z30, in terms of battery life.

So, I don't really get your point...

Posted via CB10

But....last time I checked I bought a Z10 because of it's OS and unique feature/hardware combination. And I'm pretty certain there was no device available from a competing OEM that was able to give me what I wanted. Isn't it that what sets the price for one personally? I mean I could've bought a Samsung phone with better overall specs and an ecosystem instead, but that would've still made a worse deal for me. Should BlackBerry price a Passport at 199 off contract because there's barely an ecosystem, no BlackBerry Stores and not the very latest SoC in it?

Posted via CB10

[eyesopen1111]

Should BlackBerry price a Passport at 199 off contract because there's barely an ecosystem, no BlackBerry Stores and not the very latest SoC in it?
Posted via CB10

BlackBerry should definitely take those things, and more, into account when pricing against competitors.


Z-30 / STA100-5 / 10.3.0.1154 / T-Mobile USA

[tinochiko]

Lol you can't just say "oh, that stuff is in the past and it doesn't matter." It does matter and just because they have a new guy at the helm who at this point has mainly been a lot of talk and the release of ONE device and a rehash of a 3 year old phone. Point being you can't say that none of the things Blackberry has done over the last couple of years don't matter because they do.

And never once did I say it doesn't matter.. I welcome a wait and see perceptive, I just personally have seen enough to believe they're headed in the right direction for the most part

Posted via CB10

[tinochiko]

You definitely don't understand what an ecosystem represents, if you think that Blend will be a suitable alternative to the Google/MS/Apple ecosystem.
The inherent limitations of Blend will prevent that...

You also seem to have the misconception, that the other companies have a locked down ecosystem.
This might be partly true for specialised services, like the Apple iPay, but when it comes down to Google services for example, or MS Office, then you'll see really fast that I can get that on every platform, except the BlackBerry.

It's just that the integration with your own platform/OS/services is usually better than on the platforms and then you have proprietary services on top.
Now Blend, which has the inherent limitation of being as useful as your app store and ecosystem on the BlackBerry, doesn't even compete in the slightest.
It is however a nice continuation of the Bridge concept... But definitely not even close to an answer in terms of ecosystem, when we look at the competition.

It would also be a strange thought, if you think that the Blend integration will be superior to the in-house integration of Apple and Microsoft.



If you describe that as Apple's downfall, I have the slight feeling that you neither understand their business model, nor why they didn't go significantly cheaper with the 5C.
(Hint: the 5C very probably wasn't meant to break sales records by itself. It was meant to make the 5S even more attractive (which business man would ever buy a 5C???) while providing some colourful choices).

It's correct that most of the growth in terms of user numbers, will happen in emerging markets and it is also correct that most of those customers sit on a tighter budget than in "developed" economies.
What you don't seem to grasp, is that Apple prefers to sell 10s of millions of devices with a gross profit of 400$ instead of 10s of millions of devices with a gross profit of 50$ (cheap Androids).

http://cdn.bgr.com/2014/03/bi7qscviyaajfnc.png
Apple would never be able to have that share of the profits made in the smartphone market, if they wouldn't sell their devices the way they do.

Apple also has a pretty straight forward strategy for their midrange devices: the iPhone that is 2 generations old, is their midrange device.
And economically, that makes a lot of sense, because they can just continue to produce what they produced for years already.
Huge effects of economies of scale apply here, and huge discounts for their bulk orders as well. Those are just very simple exemples why it's absolutely logical for Apple to not bother with low-end device.

Simply said: they don't need it.
And you also seem to ignore that potential customers in and upwards of the middle-class in emerging markets, can afford the iPhone without much trouble.
Apple doesn't need incredibly high volume sales, to generate the profits they do.



The Z3 is still overpriced compared to other Android and WP devices in the market place it competes in.
For a device with such a low price, it doesn't sell exactly well nonetheless.

The Z3 was a step in the right direction, but if you think that the phone is already enough, then you are painstakingly misinformed.

BlackBerry suffers from an inexistant ecosystem and app store in emerging markets as well and the Z3 is at least 50% more expensive than a comparable Android and Windows Phone device.
Now, relatively compared to the Q5.... The price is acceptable.
But that wasn't hard, since the Q5 very probably was their most overpriced smartphone in BlackBerry's history, closely followed by the Z30.

Posted via CB10

You definitely don't understand the word partially..

And I never said I didn't understand Apples model, I just wouldn't adopt it if I was in their position, why settle for less ?

And yes their old phones become 'budget' so phones that are two years old, more expensive, versus a new phone at the same price rate? (in fact the iPhone will still be slightly higher)

In a developing country I would barging people would rather have a new Z3 than an old iPhone if value for money was their primary concern, newer hardware so better compatibility with new technology plus the added benefit of android compatibility, two appstore for the price of one, SD card support etc etc.

This thread questions the relationship between iPhone and Passport so forgive me for comparing apples closed ecosystem (please please explain how it's only closed because of a apple pay?

Without third party applications;
Want to send someone a file from an iPhone to non iPhone -struggle and limitations

Want to get music anywhere apart from iTunes? - struggle and limitations

And that's just phones, then there's trying to use an ipad with a different phone from iPhone or vice versa (iPhone with android tablet) they won't compliment each other


I prefer they don't want it rather than they don't need it, do they not need the market share to keep shareholders happy? If they did that this year, instead or besides the two iphones introduced a $200 with reasonable specs (doubtful) they would kill BlackBerry's device segment by the end of the year

I have also said the Z3 is s step towards the right direction so I'm glad we agree there, and of course there are cheaper, there will always be cheaper that's why it can't just be about price, that BlackBerry branding still has to be worth something

Posted via CB10

[tinochiko]

BlackBerry should definitely take those things, and more, into account when pricing against competitors.


Z-30 / STA100-5 / 10.3.0.1154 / T-Mobile USA

And I'm sure they did, and instead of just making their high end phones dirt cheap and finishing off whatever brand value there is left, they are activity taking steps to add value, heavily waited towards enterprise but nonetheless


Posted via CB10

[Bbnivende]

You definitely don't understand the word partially..

And I never said I didn't understand Apples model, I just wouldn't adopt it if I was in their position, why settle for less ?

And yes their old phones become 'budget' so phones that are two years old, more expensive, versus a new phone at the same price rate? (in fact the iPhone will still be slightly higher)

In a developing country I would barging people would rather have a new Z3 than an old iPhone if value for money was their primary concern, newer hardware so better compatibility with new technology plus the added benefit of android compatibility, two appstore for the price of one, SD card support etc etc.

This thread questions the relationship between iPhone and Passport so forgive me for comparing apples closed ecosystem (please please explain how it's only closed because of a apple pay?

Without third party applications;
Want to send someone a file from an iPhone to non iPhone -struggle and limitations

Want to get music anywhere apart from iTunes? - struggle and limitations

And that's just phones, then there's trying to use an ipad with a different phone from iPhone or vice versa (iPhone with android tablet) they won't compliment each other


I prefer they don't want it rather than they don't need it, do they not need the market share to keep shareholders happy? If they did that this year, instead or besides the two iphones introduced a $200 with reasonable specs (doubtful) they would kill BlackBerry's device segment by the end of the year

I have also said the Z3 is s step towards the right direction so I'm glad we agree there, and of course there are cheaper, there will always be cheaper that's why it can't just be about price, that BlackBerry branding still has to be worth something

Posted via CB10

It depends which iPhone you are talking about.

I would bargain that most consumers would prefer a iPhone 5 over any current BlackBerry phone.

[tinochiko]

It depends which iPhone you are talking about.

I would bargain that most consumers would prefer a iPhone 5 over any current BlackBerry phone.

if value for money was their primary concern

Meaning an iPhone of similar value (taking into account the 'benefits' of ecosystem etc)

Posted via CB10

[tinochiko]

And for the record, this 'Old phones become our budget phones' response is equal in merit to android apps filling BlackBerry's 'app gap'

All manufacture's old products become those that people on tight budget get, some firms have made a business out of selling 'refurbished items' to exactly this market, aren't willing or able to buy the products new, most people I knew at the time who had a BlackBerry, bought it second+ hand always for about �60 , so it doesn't make it okay as an alternative strategy to hitting the budget market from the offset because the difference is, a 2 year old+ phone for which newer software (if available) is likely to be poorly optimised, and hardware which is straining to continue normal function

Posted via CB10

[Bbnivende]

if value for money was their primary concern

Meaning an iPhone of similar value (taking into account the 'benefits' of ecosystem etc)

Posted via CB10

Agreed, I bought a Z10 for $199, and the 5c would have been considerably more. The reality is that only a high end physical keyboard device like the Classic and Passport can attract premium pricing. There are too many all touch alternatives to a Blackberry that offer better specs and ecosystem. Sad but true.

[IndianTiwari]

IPhone 6 will not have any impact on BlackBerry Passport. IPhone 6 will instead compete WITH ITS OWN IPHONE 5S and other brands. I am sure it will not expand its market share.
BlackBerry Passport is altogether a different platform than Z30 / Z10/Z3. Passport will create a new segment for larger sized phone and will extend the market.

From my Z30 Device using 10.3.0.1052

[revelations65]

I went out yesterday to a local phone shop and tested the Iphone 6 this was an honest test I wanted to understand the hype, and this is what I wrote
I went to check out the iPhone 6 gave it a good go, my review I admire Apple I admire their ability to sell an inferior product, I place my z10 next to iPhone 6's built quality very flimsy Z10 built quality there is no contest , OS 8 frustrating, functionality no where near BB10 , ecosystem yes Apple does win this but seriously how many Apps do you need, lastly marketing Apple I must give them credit they can sell an empty box and people would still line up and buy them. There you go I really wanted to give Apple a chance to sell me their product I do not buy product based on marketing or placing U2 on a phone, I look at the meat and potatoes, and for me personally Apple 6 Apple OS 8 are like a MacDonald's Burger looks good might taste good but there is really no nutritional value it is just plain consumer junk food,

There you go, the sad reality is people are so roped in with Apple they cannot see anything different or wrong, in terms of built quality I give Blackberry the edge, I just wanted also to state I was prepared to be amazed but I left the shop laughing to myself over �500 pounds for this, your serious ,