[Nikolay Konov]

Hello.

I've seen it quiet a lot on the forums...now and then people make those comments that BB's giving Access PIN in order for Government organizations to gain access to certain devices if they request so....so everyone's like "OMG even BB sold out so they'll let Gov and such organizations access my device now".

Am I the only one who thinks that's something logical and normal ? Imagine your kid got murdered and the Police lacks evidence...she's been exchanging messages with the murderer via her BB but the Policy can't access that because of BB is super secure ? Are you guys kidding me ? What's all the fuzz about....I guess that people think like that: "if BB create a backdoor for the OS to be breached by a PIN key or w/e then hackers would be able to use that backdoor and hack into my phone and from there get info?" I find that way of thinking a bit stupid but it's logical as well...yet you can't expect the device to be absolutely unbreachable and so on...especially in the world that we live in where IT and computers are everywhere....even now that BB is so safe and stuff you can't tell me that there's no way to hack it and I'm amazed that it hasn't been done yet by some smart programmer just like they did with the Blackphone (lol at this btw)...

...even then if it's true that BB is so secure then that's a good news and I don't understand all the whine...that'd mean that if there's such a backdoor for real then the device is really accessable only via that PIN (masterkey) or w/e it is and all BB users should be happy because BB won't give away those PINs without a legal reason behind it...

What's your opinion guys- thanks for reading.

[zocster]

Moved to general discussion. And so far, I believe they only have these agreements with India and Indonesia?

Sent from 2AD743B7 via Tapatalk Pro

[jasonvan9]

I wonder how the Police ever used to solve murders before cell phones??

I don't like knowing there is a security hole in my device that I can do nothing about... where there is great power comes great responsibility, and I don't know about you but i don't trust strangers with a back door to my data with no oversight

Posted via my BlackBerry Z30

[anon6040766]

You don't need the security hole. All you need is a subpoena. Murders are extreme rare cases glorified in the media to appear to occur at higher rates than they do. Sure, 1 murder is 1 too many, but they happen far less often than TV would lead you to believe. Moreover, in the cases where murder is involved it would be very easy for the prosecution to work with the police to work with the carrier and BlackBerry to pull those messages. Lastly, with the small percentage of BlackBerry's being used, chances are the communication was between a BlackBerry and non-BlackBerry device and you could easily retrieve the data from the other device.


Sent from my...go ahead and guess?

[BlackberryAtQuadra]

Hello.

I've seen it quiet a lot on the forums...now and then people make those comments that BB's giving Access PIN in order for Government organizations to gain access to certain devices if they request so....so everyone's like "OMG even BB sold out so they'll let Gov and such organizations access my device now".

Am I the only one who thinks that's something logical and normal ? Imagine your kid got murdered and the Police lacks evidence...she's been exchanging messages with the murderer via her BB but the Policy can't access that because of BB is super secure ? Are you guys kidding me ? What's all the fuzz about....I guess that people think like that: "if BB create a backdoor for the OS to be breached by a PIN key or w/e then hackers would be able to use that backdoor and hack into my phone and from there get info?" I find that way of thinking a bit stupid but it's logical as well...yet you can't expect the device to be absolutely unreachable and so on...especially in the world that we live in where IT and computers are everywhere....even now that BB is so safe and stuff you can't tell me that there's no way to hack it and I'm amazed that it hasn't been done yet by some smart programmer just like they did with the Blackphone (lol at this btw)...

...even then if it's true that BB is so secure then that's a good news and I don't understand all the whine...that'd mean that if there's such a backdoor for real then the device is really accessable only via that PIN (masterkey) or w/e it is and all BB users should be happy because BB won't give away those PINs without a legal reason behind it...

What's your opinion guys- thanks for reading.

I think you meant well, but the way you explained it, makes it very, very wrong!

Foe example, imagine a building company named "B Berry Houses ltd".
Imagine "B Berry Houses ltd" decides to install hidden cameras and microphones in houses which they build in order to help government if they need it. Would you like to know, before you buy the house? Would you like that the government must have sufficient reasons approved by the court of law before they can access those cameras and microphones, and/or information collected in this way in your house? Would you like to know that all the activities and information access trough this "back door" are regulated by the law, so you would know exactly who, when, how can use it, and what can do with the collected information in this way, in advance and with known consequences!
And not only that, but to be ask to give support or not, before such a law is voted and utilized!


I think you should advance your arguments for us to be able to understand what you mean.

I personally truly hope that such a back door on BB phones doesn't exist without my knowledge and my consent. (by 'back door' I mean any kind of information collection without my consent, knowledge, and for whatever reason and for whatever /higher/ purpose and/or need). What Apple did with a back door in iOS is the shame or disgrace and scandal 'par excellence'!

[robert_in_la]

You don't need the security hole. All you need is a subpoena. Murders are extreme rare cases glorified in the media to appear to occur at higher rates than they do. Sure, 1 murder is 1 too many, but they happen far less often than TV would lead you to believe. Moreover, in the cases where murder is involved it would be very easy for the prosecution to work with the police to work with the carrier and BlackBerry to pull those messages. Lastly, with the small percentage of BlackBerry's being used, chances are the communication was between a BlackBerry and non-BlackBerry device and you could easily retrieve the data from the other device.


Sent from my...go ahead and guess?

True on the subpoena. On a side note, if your handheld device is locked and the police want to check it-- they will need a court order from a judge. Only time that doesn't apply is at a port of entry into the U.S..

The U.S. Supreme Court has even ruled that when entering the country a person, even a U.S. citizen, has reasonable expectation that they will have no privacy. What's reasonable is up to the discretion of the U.S. official at the port of entry.

[robert_in_la]

You don't need the security hole. All you need is a subpoena. Murders are extreme rare cases glorified in the media to appear to occur at higher rates than they do. Sure, 1 murder is 1 too many, but they happen far less often than TV would lead you to believe. Moreover, in the cases where murder is involved it would be very easy for the prosecution to work with the police to work with the carrier and BlackBerry to pull those messages. Lastly, with the small percentage of BlackBerry's being used, chances are the communication was between a BlackBerry and non-BlackBerry device and you could easily retrieve the data from the other device.


Sent from my...go ahead and guess?

True on the subpoena. On a side note, if your handheld device is locked and the police want to check it-- they will need a court order from a judge. Only time that doesn't apply is at a port of entry into the U.S..

The U.S. Supreme Court has even ruled that when entering the country a person, even a U.S. citizen, has reasonable expectation that they will have no privacy. What's reasonable is up to the discretion of the U.S. official at the port of entry.

Here's some more info:

The Government's interest in preventing the entry of unwanted persons and effects is at its zenith at the international border. Time and again, we have stated that "searches made at the border, pursuant to the longstanding right of the sovereign to protect itself by stopping and examining persons and property crossing into this country, are reasonable simply by virtue of the fact that they occur at the [153] border." United States v. Ramsey, 431 U.S. 606, 616, 52 L. Ed. 2d 617,XXXXX 1972 (1977). Congress, since the beginning of our Government, "has granted the Executive plenary authority to conduct routine searches and seizures at the border, without probable cause or a warrant, in order to regulate the collection of duties and to prevent the introduction of contraband into this country." United States v. Montoya de Hernandez, 473 U.S. 531, 537, 87 L. Ed. 2d 381,XXXXX 3304 (citing Ramsey, supra, at 616-617, 52 L. Ed. 2d 617,XXXXX 1972 (citing Act of July 31, 1789, ch 5, 1 Stat 29)). The modern statute that authorized the search in this case, 46 Stat 747, 19 U.S.C. � 1581(a)[19 USCS � 1581(a)], 1 derived from a statute passed by the First Congress, the Act of Aug. 4, 1790, ch 35, � 31, 1 Stat 164, see United States v. Villamonte-Marquez, 462 U.S. 579, 584, 77 L. Ed. 2d 22,XXXXX 2573 (1983), and reflects the "impressive historical pedigree" of the Government's power and interest, id., at 585, 77 L. Ed. 2d 22,XXXXX 2573. It is axiomatic that the United States, as sovereign, has the inherent authority to protect, and a paramount interest in protecting, its territorial integrity.

[Nikolay Konov]

I think you meant well, but the way you explained it, makes it very, very wrong!

Foe example, imagine a building company named "B Berry Houses ltd".
Imagine "B Berry Houses ltd" decides to install hidden cameras and microphones in houses which they build in order to help government if they need it. Would you like to know, before you buy the house? Would you like that the government must have sufficient reasons approved by the court of law before they can access those cameras and microphones, and/or information collected in this way in your house? Would you like to know that all the activities and information access trough this "back door" are regulated by the law, so you would know exactly who, when, how can use it, and what can do with the collected information in this way, in advance and with known consequences!
And not only that, but to be ask to give support or not, before such a law is voted and utilized!


I think you should advance your arguments for us to be able to understand what you mean.

I personally truly hope that such a back door on BB phones doesn't exist without my knowledge and my consent. (by 'back door' I mean any kind of information collection without my consent, knowledge, and for whatever reason and for whatever /higher/ purpose and/or need). What Apple did with a back door in iOS is the shame or disgrace and scandal 'par excellence'!

Well if you put it that way as long as I don't know it it'll be ok for me...I mean if I murder my wife without knowing about those cameras and they pull out a video in order to prove I did it it'll sure come to handy...as long as those kind of cameras/BB backdoor are in good hands I believe they're justified...the issue appears when such technology is used to spy on a company in order to steal information and profit from that for example...it's all about who's got access and who can initiate such a thing.

However, my point dear forum is that in the nowadays world there is so many different options via which information about you could be gathered that your Android phone for example is just the tip of the iceberg -you'll be amazed how much info a team assigned with that as a task could gather from various of sources except your mobile device....so now having that in mind why would people care so much about the security flaws of their phone when their life in general is not secure to begin with -in terms of personal data and all that.

Also a question of mine here -does stuff like Text Messages (SMS) go through the BB servers or was that only for BBM ? Basically a lot of the data on your phone can be simply accessed through the Mobile Operator as well I guess.

[kadthekid]

Indian government has no access to any blackberry internal data. All the websites reported that all blackberry data will be available to the department of telecom but it was never enforced. Partly due to the fact that BB10 came out which could be used on any data plan. Even if it was enforced they can only access data of prior BB10 devices that are not on BES.

Posted via CB10

[Doggerz]

Why? Because I don't trust any government. Especially my own. And I don't trust BlackBerry anymore either.

I no longer have any expectations of privacy thanks to Snowden and good reporting about BlackBerry. It's not just India BTW. United Arab Emirates also has a deal and I'm sure a lot more. It's not like BlackBerry is eager to say they give everything away.

I bet most of the posts you see about this on here are from me. I've been banned a few times for taking about this subject.

Thanks for bringing it up though. I see some posts here they are very fair and thoughtful about the subject proving that not everyone here is a sheep.



Z30STA100-5 / 10.2.2.1531 / T-Mobile USA

[--TommesJay--]

The only creepy thing about all of this (latest example the uproar about BlackBerrys acquisition of Secusmart as a representative of the "five eyes" in the German public and media) is that people

* fight to protect their data against governments and authorities while at the same time
* willfully disclosing ALL of their data and privacy towards large public corporations like Facebook, Google, Apple, Microsoft and others as well as
* willfully giving any random software developer access to his/her most private data through app permissions

... it's beyond comical to me.

[skibnik]

As it stands now all email, and text goes over your carriers network if a government agency wants that info they use a court order to gather that info from the carrier servers. If it's a corporate account using BES they also can use a court order to demand the info so no back door is necessary. Same with voice calls they need a court order to "tap" your phone whether it's a land line or cell. The part that gets people concerned is when government agencies bypass the system to secretly collect data on its citizens like the NSA does regularly.

Z30 and loving it!

[BlackberryAtQuadra]

Well if you put it that way as long as I don't know it it'll be ok for me...

Those cameras are also in you bathroom (all the time!) and a lot of people to watch on the other side ! Maybe your neighbor or relative works there and have to watch!? What about your kids and theirs private moments!? People would not be happy about this, most of them ! And not only the people but the society would not find this as a good thing for the society itself!

... if I murder my wife ...

You aren't married yet, are you? Or you've made a mistake and meant "If my wife kills me ... " )))

... nowadays world there is so many different options via which information about you could be gathered ...

Yes, that's correct. But also there's a lot of ways I, you and others could do a lot of thing but we don't do it, because it's wrong thing to do (sometimes is's against the law). We should and must protect our privacy despite so many different options in which information about us could be gathered, shouldn't we?

Also a question of mine here -does stuff like Text Messages (SMS) go through the BB servers or was that only for BBM ? Basically a lot of the data on your phone can be simply accessed through the Mobile Operator as well I guess.

SMS goes through operators' infrastructure and BBM through BB's infrastructure. BB doesn't hold or store messages and messages are encrypted. SMS is an open book so personally I for example don't use it for sending someone a password. Also emails are an open book for almost everyone so I use it carefully.
But I know in advance all that, and the government needs a court to use it against me, in case, and only in case I'm suspected for breaking some existing law! In case they are mistaken, I can sue them for a compensation for wasting my time and wasting taxpayers money , and the compensation will be paid from taxpayers money ! That's life .

[Nikolay Konov]

Those cameras are also in you bathroom (all the time!) and a lot of people to watch on the other side ! Maybe your neighbor or relative works there and have to watch!? What about your kids and theirs private moments!? People would not be happy about this, most of them ! And not only the people but the society would not find this as a good thing for the society itself!


You aren't married yet, are you? Or you've made a mistake and meant "If my wife kills me ... " )))


Yes, that's correct. But also there's a lot of ways I, you and others could do a lot of thing but we don't do it, because it's wrong thing to do (sometimes is's against the law). We should and must protect our privacy despite so many different options in which information about us could be gathered, shouldn't we?


SMS goes through operators' infrastructure and BBM through BB's infrastructure. BB doesn't hold or store messages and messages are encrypted. SMS is an open book so personally I for example don't use it for sending someone a password. Also emails are an open book for almost everyone so I use it carefully.
But I know in advance all that, and the government needs a court to use it against me, in case, and only in case I'm suspected for breaking some existing law! In case they are mistaken, I can sue them for a compensation for wasting my time and wasting taxpayers money , and the compensation will be paid from taxpayers money ! That's life .

-Well regarding your first quote there I mean that this data is stored on a digital source and it's been accessed only if needed to be...that means if the Police wants to investigate me they can pull out a disk and watch me naked in the bathroom killing my wife for example or taking a shower in case I'm innocent...then I'll be ok with that and if my neighbor is an inspector working on the case I'll have to just deal with it and live on....you put it in a way that sounds like it's a BigBrother but it's not the whole world watching -just some people...keep in mind what I say -it should be accessed only when needed...just like the calls you do -every call you do is being recorded for a period of time. If needed this call can be recovered...meanwhile a computer software is listening to it and scanning for code words so it won't be a living human being listening to you bragging at your boss how you ****ed your neighbor's wife, get it ?

Also I'm pretty sure you can'y really sue nobody for investigating you as long as you're a legit suspect and that's provable by evidence! The way you put it sounds like the policy needs to research...research...research....choose one suspect and investigate ONLY him because if they pick up 3...well 2 of those will be innocent so they can sue them for being investigated without having fault ? That's a bit funny really -I hope I haven't misunderstood you and I hope you get my point on this one as well. As long as an investigation is being done on a legit suspect -that suspect can't really sue the state for investigating him since there's been evidence or some kind of an info leading to that person as a suspect. etc

[crackbrry fan]

As long as a court order is obtained, I have absolutely no qualms if BlackBerry passes over info. I have issues when it's done to "keep me safe ".

Posted via CB10

[raino]

Indian government has no access to any blackberry internal data. All the websites reported that all blackberry data will be available to the department of telecom but it was never enforced. Partly due to the fact that BB10 came out which could be used on any data plan. Even if it was enforced they can only access data of prior BB10 devices that are not on BES.

Can you please find and post a source for this?

As long as a court order is obtained, I have absolutely no qualms if BlackBerry passes over info. I have issues when it's done to "keep me safe ".

Court orders can be obtained under the "keep me safe" type of reasoning too. That's what FISA courts are for.

[crackbrry fan]

Can you please find and post a source for this?



Court orders can be obtained under the "keep me safe" type of reasoning too. That's what FISA courts are for.

I agree but it still means that they require a warrant as long as the due process is followed, I have no problems. As to the other question here is a link where BlackBerry vehemently denies "backdoors".

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/report-...service=mobile

http://www.heydary.com/publications/...lackberry.html

http://www.heydary.com/publications/...lackberry.html

Posted via CB10

[masterful]

Don't be foolish in relying to the op and give him some respect.

You don't think that your carrier is betraying you? Like sms is simply plain text., your phone call is not recorded? Or anyone tapping it? Do you really think that they going to ask for your permission to eavesdrop? Wake up people and smell the coffee. By accessing the Internet then you already exploited. I hope you realize that. You have to wait for all this Snowden to know about this? Geezz.

By the way how many of you read the legal documents of your carrier and home Internet provider? If you have then you must be a lawyer or some sort paralegal !!

#BBFactCheck

[Raestloz]

I said the same thing too.

BlackBerry gave away data under warrant, they didn't approach the authorities and go "Pssst, officer, how about some cold, hard, totally inconspicuous backdoor access to our encrypted data?". The warrant was because there was a crime and the authorities want to find some evidence; if the evidence is found, the criminal could be better convicted and everybody else can be safer.

In essence, BlackBerry was working with authorities to help them keep you safe. To say that BlackBerry is unethical to do so would imply that you have a secret so dark the society will punish you for finding out with or without context.

I can't believe the spin people made to make it as if BlackBerry gave away every single thing they own to authorities even before they say anything.

Z10 STL100-1/10.2.1.3247

[raino]

I agree but it still means that they require a warrant as long as the due process is followed, I have no problems. As to the other question here is a link where BlackBerry vehemently denies "backdoors".

BlackBerry denies using backdoor-enabled encryption code - The Globe and Mail

Inside the Rim: Decrypting the Blackberry

I don't doubt that they don't provide encryption keys, but they do share content. From the second link above,

However, despite these harsh words, RIM was able to avert a total ban and reach a deal with the respective governments, but only after RIM decided to allow the Saudi and Indian government to have access to Blackberry users’ emails and instant messages.

This is also confirmed by the Times of India:

The country's law enforcement agencies will soon be able to track e-mail as well as email attachments on a real time basis over BlackBerry devices, check whether chats sent over the popular BlackBerry Messenger (BBM) have been 'delivered' or 'read', and intercept web-browsing facilities on these devices

kadthekid does not dispute this ball got rolling, but he/she is saying it was never enforced. Which means what exactly?

[Raestloz]

I don't doubt that they don't provide encryption keys, but they do share content. From the second link above,



This is also confirmed by the Times of India:



kadthekid does not dispute this ball got rolling, but he/she is saying it was never enforced. Which means what exactly?

I think they're saying that the deal was reached but the officials are too lazy to actually check everything in real-time

Kind of like the German officers and Enigma

Z10 STL100-1/10.2.1.3247

[jason9900]

LOL OP I agree with you completely.

What I am more shocked about is how no one quoted that lame Benjamin Franklin line yet, you all know which one I'm talking about

Posted via CB10

[MarsupilamiX]

The only creepy thing about all of this (latest example the uproar about BlackBerrys acquisition of Secusmart as a representative of the "five eyes" in the German public and media) is that people

* fight to protect their data against governments and authorities while at the same time
* willfully disclosing ALL of their data and privacy towards large public corporations like Facebook, Google, Apple, Microsoft and others as well as
* willfully giving any random software developer access to his/her most private data through app permissions

... it's beyond comical to me.

Because they
A) Have no clue what their actions actually mean.
B) Still didn't understood that giving a company access to your data, is basically the same as giving it to your government.
C) Don't care about any privacy implications whatsoever, but just need a reason to complain.
D) Have never truly been educated what is behind all of the convenient Internet services, and how they directly or indirectly pay for it.

Oh and because the governments of the world don't try hard enough to protect their citizens' privacy from corporations.
If a government would actually be serious about that, then it would contradict my point B) and gathering data would be more difficult for said government.
Such a self-chastiment is sadly not expected from any government though...

Posted via CB10

[Prem WatsApp]

Why? Because I don't trust any government. Especially my own. And I don't trust BlackBerry anymore either.

I no longer have any expectations of privacy thanks to Snowden and good reporting about BlackBerry. It's not just India BTW. United Arab Emirates also has a deal and I'm sure a lot more. It's not like BlackBerry is eager to say they give everything away.

I bet most of the posts you see about this on here are from me. I've been banned a few times for taking about this subject.

Thanks for bringing it up though. I see some posts here they are very fair and thoughtful about the subject proving that not everyone here is a sheep.



Z30STA100-5 / 10.2.2.1531 / T-Mobile USA

Thanks Doggerz, for your opinion. No tech can really be trusted anymore, but I'd go with the lesser evil.

At this stage, BlackBerry provides me with the right user experience and perceived security, and I'm fine with that. Ubuntu Phone is still nascent and carries the common open-source risks, whereas Jolla relies too much on Android for my liking.




? BlackBerry? I premdict the future's gonna be chenomenal! ?

[Nikolay Konov]

Yea well that's my whole point that it seems to me that most people are kinda stupid -they're like barking dogs who rage about some official article saying that BB will cooperate with the Police for example...so people go nuts about it because "omg BB is giving away my data"...meanwhile every day the Internet...your Facebook....Google and many more are scanning and analyzing your so precious data in order to target you with commercials or simply analyze the current market's demand and whatnot...just because it remains hidden people are not so aware so they're joyfully sharing all that info. That's what bothers me most -the human stupidity in some of those posts -and in 99% of those posts it's some random guy with a normal job who can't possibly have anything valuable as a piece of information in his device but they're so focused on their own bubble (world) that they go rage-mode for those kinda things.

I'm getting a bit off-topic maybe -I've got a lot of thoughts in my mind and posting walls of text is never a good thing since nobody bothers to read them hm^

Thanks for the discussion guys.