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  1. iBuilder's Avatar
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    #151  

    Default Re: Why BB10 Will likely fail, and what RIM can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by richardat View Post
    Well, i can certainly see your point without a doubt. I think the really troubling thing about that kind of policy is the policing.....less than 50.....lol....not easy to quantify?? One particularly vocal person, and 17 less prolific posters, with an average 42% negativity rating vs. how many positive posters? ;-) Or could it be 25 threads with potential negative side of the discussion, to 50 discussions for which there is no negative side?? Anyhow, that would be the problem of the mods. I had skimmed the opening of that thread some time ago and.....well again....complex issue no? Anyways, I appreciate your thoughtful replies, agree or not.
    Thanks

    If it helps, by "negative" I'm referring to just those folks that are either trying to shut a thread down or detract from the conversation, or are just tiresome in general - the troublemakers, if you will. I wouldn't call someone's viewpoint negative if it's merely in opposition.

    By way of local example: yourself and masahiro - you two have some back-and-forth in this thread, yet neither of you are negative.
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  2. lorax1284's Avatar
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    #152  

    Default Re: Why BB10 Will likely fail, and what RIM can do.

    The thousandth thread on the pointless, repeatedly refuted, downright stupid "RIM should go Android" idea is trolling when the OP has participated in countless other anti-RIM topics on this same site, and re-refuting it is frustrating for legitimate and fair-minded BB fans on a BB fan site. You can dress up trolling as critical discussion all you want, but that naively doesn't consider the OPs goals in the context of their history on CB.

    stirring the pot by regurgitating the same points in new threads is some kind of warped "no, listen to what I say! Agree with ME!" neurotic attention whoring that has already driven a lot of really knowledgable posters away from CB... Not sure if mobile nations has the balance between quality and click volume right.... Negative topics enrage and engage those inclined to feed trolls, which drives up page views, but I for one am fine leaving CB to the doomsayers and their "feeders" it the mods don't just merge these "old is new again" topics and keep the pointless noise down.

    Yeah, if you're defending this topic and the OP you won't miss me but that's kind of my point.
    Last edited by lorax1284; 11-10-2012 at 08:49 AM.
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  3. texazzpete's Avatar
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    #153  

    Default Re: Why BB10 Will likely fail, and what RIM can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by LuvULongTime View Post
    They seem to love their alternate devices so much more.
    I'm not sure why I'm supposed to love one device more than another to qualify to post here. Last I checked, you didn't purchase any of my devices for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by LuvULongTime View Post
    This is the internet after all. We pretend to own anything we want and be whoever we want to be.
    Freudian slip, perhaps?
    All the stuff in my profile are 100% owned by me...some can even be seen in my avatar.


    Quote Originally Posted by LuvULongTime View Post
    Anyway, I'm out of this thread. Enjoy folks. I don't believe in censorship. I love discussion and sharing ideas, but this is too much for me.
    Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
  4. CrackedBarry's Avatar
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    Thread AuthorThread Author   #154  

    Default Re: Why BB10 Will likely fail, and what RIM can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by timmy t View Post
    Yes, it is a low priority now because people don't do banking with their phones. When that starts to happen and your bank account info is on your phone and you start transmitting information from your phone to some NFC enabled device to pay for your purchase, then security will become more of an issue.
    Does anyone know how much of an issue security is in those Asian countries where electronic wallets are popular?
    Firstly, that's nonsense and you know how we KNOW its nonsense? Look at people's personal computers. Most people these days do personal banking from them, yet they choose to do it from Windows PCs that are notoriously insecure compared to Mac or Linux machines. So we can see that even WHEN people do something as sensitive as personal banking, they want to use a solution that is as secure as possible AS LONG as they don't have to go out of their way to change their preferred computer or smartphone platform.

    And for your information, plenty of people do their personal or business banking from an iPhone or Android phone. Sure, it might not be an absolutely bulletproof solution, but we don't demand that. (Look at how insecure our home computers or heck, our physical credit cards are) people only demand that its reasonably secure.

    And secondly: Why do you assume that a mobile payment solution will be based on NFC? Mobile banking is still in its infancy, and there's no reason to assume why we won't have an NFC-less solution, like for example the one that Apple has implemented in their newest IOS...
  5. lnichols's Avatar
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    #155  

    Default Re: Why BB10 Will likely fail, and what RIM can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roo Zilla View Post
    Looks like RIM has their work cut out for them. Seems Sony has taken the #3 spot in smartphone market share in the 3rd quarter. HTC in 4th, RIM in 5th. Nokia lumped in with "others." Not that it really matters for BB10 since presumably it will require a new ecosystem, but losing market share can't be good. I guess you lose relevancy. So weird... who woulda thought Sony.

    Smartphone market share Q3 2012: Samsung, Apple gain RIM, HTC lose | BGR
    The problem with the metrics in that article is that while RIM may have only shipped 7.3 Million phones from their warehouses that quarter, over 10 Million Blackberry phones were sold to end users during that same quarter. Still down from the 11.8 Million a year before, but not as horrible as "shipped" number would imply. RIM had a glut of inventory and they are clearing them out. The good news is that if BB10 uptake plus BBOS 7 sales in developing markets is as high as end users sales, since their will be no inventory glut of BB10 devices, they could be back in third in the "shipped" metric in a few quarters.
  6. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
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    #156  

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CrackedBarry View Post
    And secondly: Why do you assume that a mobile payment solution will be based on NFC? Mobile banking is still in its infancy, and there's no reason to assume why we won't have an NFC-less solution, like for example the one that Apple has implemented in their newest IOS...
    Because that's the technology credit cards already employ, NFC.
  7. shaleem's Avatar
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    #157  

    Default Re: Why BB10 Will likely fail, and what RIM can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by lorax1284 View Post
    The thousandth thread on the pointless, repeatedly refuted, downright stupid "RIM should go Android" idea is trolling when the OP has participated in countless other anti-RIM topics on this same site, and re-refuting it is frustrating for legitimate and fair-minded BB fans on a BB fan site. You can dress up trolling as critical discussion all you want, but that naively doesn't consider the OPs goals in the context of their history on CB.

    stirring the pot by regurgitating the same points in new threads is some kind of warped "no, listen to what I say! Agree with ME!" neurotic attention whoring that has already driven a lot of really knowledgable posters away from CB... Not sure if mobile nations has the balance between quality and click volume right.... Negative topics enrage and engage those inclined to feed trolls, which drives up page views, but I for one am fine leaving CB to the doomsayers and their "feeders" it the mods don't just merge these "old is new again" topics and keep the pointless noise down.

    Yeah, if you're defending this topic and the OP you won't miss me but that's kind of my point.
    Amen!
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  8. the_kid_hartford's Avatar
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    #158  

    Default Re: Why BB10 Will likely fail, and what RIM can do.

    WOW, I mean WOOOOW.....this thread is an absolute CLASSIC......
    "Every tradition constructed by human beings is subject to ossified arrogance, blinding pomposity and outright bigotry. That is true not just for Judaism, not just for Christianity, not just for Islam, it is true for secular traditions as well."

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  9. CrackedBarry's Avatar
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    Thread AuthorThread Author   #159  

    Default Re: Why BB10 Will likely fail, and what RIM can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by belfastdispatcher View Post
    Because that's the technology credit cards already employ, NFC.
    And? They also employ magnetic stripes... Fundamentally they employ CC numbers that can be transmitted through IR or an LCD screen. We might as well use those methods for a mobile CC system.

    NFC is a solution just looking for a problem, and in big parts of the world, large parts of Europe for example, there isn't the infrastructure in place for NFC payments. So it ISN'T the technology credit cards employ on a world wide basis.

    NFC could be a possible mobile payment solution, or it might not be. A hardware agnostic and easy to use system like Passbook on iPhones might be the way forward instead, combined with SMS or qr codes. Who knows.

    Anyways, my basic point stands. People won't switch phones ecosystems merely based on perceived security, since A: they perceive their current cellphone OS to be secure enough, and B: Allthough mobile banking is fairly popular, mobile payments aren't beyond the current fairly limited methods.
  10. bitek's Avatar
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    #160  

    Default Re: Why BB10 Will likely fail, and what RIM can do.

    this would the end of rim if it had adopted android. qnx is the answer and rim will prevail. nokia is gone because it went easy way and adopted win8. now it will compete with microsoft on phones. true sign of confidence in nokia success from microsoft. htc, lg are doing so great with android and making "tons" of money. security and innovation is the key. if os is good many will switch. keep in mind. there are many who switched to android and ios but not trully happy. good product from rim with awesome keyboard and next gen os will make them come back. rim does not need to have all apps but it needs good selection. I think rim will have it. time to buy stock.

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  11. Nine54's Avatar
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    #161  

    Default Why BB10 Will likely fail, and what RIM can do.

    RIM's pivot moment was when it announced the purchase of QNX and transition to a new platform. At the point, it decided it wanted to remain an integrated software-hardware player like Apple instead of an OEM for another platform. Nokia's similar pivot came with Elop's "burning platform" memo and announcement that Nokia would become a privileged OEM for WP.

    Maybe time will tell, but right now, I don't think we can determine whether those were inherently good or bad moves. All we can measure is the execution, and on that front, I think both RIM and Nokia made some questionable decisions. The first was announcing these transitions before really understanding the effort required to transition. This effectively killed interest in current platforms and created a lame-duck period that was entirely too long, especially for RIM. The second was foregoing gradual migration strategies and basically throwing away the existing ecosystems they did have.

    RIM could have provided an upgrade path for devs and users by leveraging virtualization and more robust hardware. Imagine if RIM had released dual- or quad-core phones that could be upgraded to BB 10 and if BB 10 could run BB 7 as a virtual machine or runtime environment. That way, devs could continue creating apps for the existing market and know those apps would be supported on BB 10. Users could purchase better devices today without worrying that those devices will be obsolete once BB 10 arrives.

    As to why WP isn't doing better, I think the OP is right: sure, it might be a fine OS, maybe even better in some ways. In fact, I'd be surprised if some consumers aren't lured to the tile-based interface, especially the older crowd who might like how bright and easy-to-see they are. But, once consumers learn that it's a separate ecosystem and that it doesn't have anywhere near the number of apps available, why would they buy one? Because the UI is a little nicer? Because of compatibility with Windows? Those just aren't compelling enough reasons for consumers when their family and friends all have iPhones or Android phones. I worry that without a major differentiator, it could be the same story for BB 10. Plus, the BlackBerry and Nokia brands have a negative stigma in some markets, particularly in North America.

    RIM and Nokia didn't want to be another OEM in the "crowded" Android market, but we're constantly reminded about how Samsung is the only profitable player. Instead of trying to compete with the entire iOS and Android ecosystems, RIM and Nokia could have set their sights on Samsung, and capitalized on the struggles of HTC and Motorola. In fact, RIM could have had a real opportunity to own MDM and BYOD by leveraging BB 7 for company-issued phones where security is key and leveraging Android for consumer-oriented devices. Both could be manageable by Mobile Fusion just as they are now, but this way, RIM could get a slice of the BYOD pie. And if it still wanted to go the BB 10 route, it could have done so gradually, phasing out BB 7 first.

    Ironically, it feels like the closer we get to the launch of BB 10 devices, the longer a shot it has. The more time it takes, the more time BB users are without hardware advancements like LTE and better cameras and compelling apps like Netflix and Instagram. Even if those apps are released for BB 10, what about new compelling apps after that? Will developers continue to take an iOS-Android first approach? That's something MS doesn't seem to realize with WP8. Yeah, sharing a code base with Windows 8 might make it easier for devs to to port between Windows and WP, but it's not like these devs won't still need or want to develop for iOS and Android. And how many mobile apps will people really need or want PC/Windows counterparts for?

    Time ultimately will tell, but even with "third-place" up for grabs, it's possible that anything outside the #1 and #2 players will be also-rans...

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  12. ljfong's Avatar
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    #162  

    Default Re: Why BB10 Will likely fail, and what RIM can do.

    Palm's burning platform was Palm OS, came up with WebOS, but due to bad execution ultimately Palm went away. While Nokia's was Symbian OS and they are struggling at the moment with Microsoft wholesale bet. Microsoft's burning platform was Windows Mobile, then they came up with Windows Phone 7 and now 8. RIM's burning platform would be Java-based OS-es. Out of all these companies, Microsoft is the only one that has tons of cash to burn and has very deep software portfolios outside mobile, therefore can afford to make mistake over and over. Microsoft will persist and continue to improve and to pump money into its mobile effort the way it did with its XBox gaming platform. BlackBerry 10 has to come out pretty much "close to perfect", as RIM has nowhere near the luxury Microsoft enjoys. I am rocking my Torch 9810 till my contract ends in April 2013 or beyond, depending on what I see and what I like when the time comes.
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  13. reeneebob's Avatar
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    #163  

    Default Why BB10 Will likely fail, and what RIM can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by sinsin07 View Post
    The terms secure, FIPS and unroot don't belong in the same sentence as Android.

    The term that best fits in a sentence with Android is malware.
    ...Really.

    I've owned 4 android devices and never had an instance of malware. I remember a popular BB app maker spamming all who downloaded their app.

    Lets not go crazy with the hyperbole.


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  14. kdna's Avatar
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    #164  

    Default Re: Why BB10 Will likely fail, and what RIM can do.

    ANDROID is the biggest piece of garbage in the market at the moment. The apps are crap. Usability wise it's too complicated and the operating system isn't streamlined. The hardware side of things is a different story. Over 1000 different Android devices. Security issues? Malware, rooting, phone hijacking. Wait... did google release Wallet? That flopped. Android is an effing joke.

    RIM would be better off dropping support of Android runtime on PB and BB10 and continuing forward with its own unique offering(lets not waste resources on competitors and having to support backward compatibility in the future for someone else's os). Bring out the guns from R&D in Waterloo. Google and Apple are trying to kill off BlackBerry is a media / PR war because they're threatened by BlackBerry 10. The competition doesn't have a single clue as to what's to pulverize their faces. They know they'll lose market share as soon as a better shiner nuclear super phone enters the marketplace ala BB10.

    Haters be hating. Competitors be playing dirty. Watch out. 2013 is it!
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    #165  

    Default Re: Why BB10 Will likely fail, and what RIM can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by kdna View Post
    ANDROID is the biggest piece of garbage in the market at the moment. The apps are crap. Usability wise it's too complicated and the operating system isn't streamlined. The hardware side of things is a different story. Over 1000 different Android devices. Security issues? Malware, rooting, phone hijacking. Wait... did google release Wallet? That flopped. Android is an effing joke.

    RIM would be better off dropping support of Android runtime on PB and BB10 and continuing forward with its own unique offering(lets not waste resources on competitors and having to support backward compatibility in the future for someone else's os). Bring out the guns from R&D in Waterloo. Google and Apple are trying to kill off BlackBerry is a media / PR war because they're threatened by BlackBerry 10. The competition doesn't have a single clue as to what's to pulverize their faces. They know they'll lose market share as soon as a better shiner nuclear super phone enters the marketplace ala BB10.

    Haters be hating. Competitors be playing dirty. Watch out. 2013 is it!
    This is clearly a trolling post, but I'll respond.
    I want RIM to succeed with BB10 more than anyone, but to call Android garbage is the same myopic view that Lazaridis and Balsillie had that got RIM is this position.

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  16. aragone79's Avatar
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    #166  

    Default Why BB10 Will likely fail, and what RIM can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by reeneebob View Post
    This is clearly a trolling post, but I'll respond.
    I want RIM to succeed with BB10 more than anyone, but to call Android garbage is the same myopic view that Lazaridis and Balsillie had that got RIM is this position.

    I've got blisters on me fingers!!! from using Tapatalk 2
    Agree with u. Most of us wants to see BB10 to be the winner by the end, but don't disrespect any OS platforms. Every OS has its own weakness.

    If we want to see BB10 to be a winner, then try to explore all advantageous of BB10 when it releases and sounds those to people near us.

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    #167  

    Default Re: Why BB10 Will likely fail, and what RIM can do.

    It's really a matter of the pretentious BlackBerry owners who had only a trendy interest in BlackBerry hardware and then abandoned it for the next big thing that gave BlackBerry such a negative appearance to the public. BlackBerry refused to change and mimic what everyone else was doing mostly because they had millions of customers already established, and like a good company, they stayed loyal to their userbase and didn't yank the rug out from under their feet with a major OS change since the one they had was proven to work and made everyone happy. If anyone has been paying close attention like a true BlackBerry fan would, the gradual improvements to the BlackBerry OS has been not only a smooth transition fof the long time faithful, it's also given BB time to adjust to a healthy mix of what the customers wanted AND what kind of operating system they could build that would distinguish them from the rest. Though the BB phone users have no clue yet, all of us PlayBook owners have OS 2.1, which is a precursor to the finished product of BB OS 10, and we can say without a doubt that RIM has pulled out all the stops at this point. I honestly don't think Apple and Google won't know what hit them, but then neither of those companies listened to their customers when they complained about bad antenna issues and getting rid of Adobe Flash Player....oh, wait a minute! Weren't both companies guilty of turning their backs on Adobe? What the were they thinking?
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  18. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
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    #168  

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CrackedBarry View Post
    And? They also employ magnetic stripes... Fundamentally they employ CC numbers that can be transmitted through IR or an LCD screen. We might as well use those methods for a mobile CC system.

    NFC is a solution just looking for a problem, and in big parts of the world, large parts of Europe for example, there isn't the infrastructure in place for NFC payments. So it ISN'T the technology credit cards employ on a world wide basis.

    NFC could be a possible mobile payment solution, or it might not be. A hardware agnostic and easy to use system like Passbook on iPhones might be the way forward instead, combined with SMS or qr codes. Who knows.

    Anyways, my basic point stands. People won't switch phones ecosystems merely based on perceived security, since A: they perceive their current cellphone OS to be secure enough, and B: Allthough mobile banking is fairly popular, mobile payments aren't beyond the current fairly limited methods.
    Go to McDonalds, see what they're using, that's right NFC. If you have a credit card with nfc you can just tap to pay.

    And why do you think people need to switch? There's a new generation young and old every year ready to get a smartphone.
  19. cjcampbell's Avatar
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    #169  

    Default Re: Why BB10 Will likely fail, and what RIM can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrackedBarry View Post
    And? They also employ magnetic stripes... Fundamentally they employ CC numbers that can be transmitted through IR or an LCD screen. We might as well use those methods for a mobile CC system.

    NFC is a solution just looking for a problem, and in big parts of the world, large parts of Europe for example, there isn't the infrastructure in place for NFC payments. So it ISN'T the technology credit cards employ on a world wide basis.

    NFC could be a possible mobile payment solution, or it might not be. A hardware agnostic and easy to use system like Passbook on iPhones might be the way forward instead, combined with SMS or qr codes. Who knows.

    Anyways, my basic point stands. People won't switch phones ecosystems merely based on perceived security, since A: they perceive their current cellphone OS to be secure enough, and B: Allthough mobile banking is fairly popular, mobile payments aren't beyond the current fairly limited methods.
    BB has already started NFC credit card payments from your phone here in Canada. Passbook is for gift cards, as far as I can understand, and each is retailer specific. NFC is not only a possibility, it is a reality.

    As for people switching for perceived security, you're right. It hasn't stopped the migration to other platforms, but what people WILL do, and is a proven fact, is switch phones for certain features that they find useful.
  20. CrackedBarry's Avatar
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    Thread AuthorThread Author   #170  

    Default Re: Why BB10 Will likely fail, and what RIM can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nine54 View Post

    Time ultimately will tell, but even with "third-place" up for grabs, it's possible that anything outside the #1 and #2 players will be also-rans...

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk
    That's what I think we'll see. And besides WP7, yup you can add Palm OS and to a lesser degree Symbian to the list of excellent OS'es that for some reason never really had a chance.

    Personal Computers are the market most alike mobile devices, and in that market there wasn't room for more than two ecosystems (and could somebody tell me why an vertical manufacturer with an "own" OS is so great when it comes to cellphones, when the same model has really only ever worked with ONE computer manufacturer: Apple? Not having their own OS doesn't seem to have hurt Dell, Lenovo, Acer or any other computer company. Isn't it just power of habit of sorts, that makes people insist that RIM needs their own OS, when there really isn't any case for it?)

    If you look at other electronic products or categories, there really aren't many where every manufacturer can afford their own ecosystem. The market always settles down to choose one or two standards, whether its Bluray/HD DVD, PC/Mac, PSP/Nintendo. Heck, even the console market which has the same kind of ecosystem to a certain degree, that cellphones have, is split between Playstation and Xbox (Nintendo Wii isnt a fifth generation console and doesn't compete directly with PS3/Xbox360).

    So I agree with Nine54. I don't really see the case for third or fourth place. If the mobile market is anything like previous brand new product categories like PCs or game consoles, which after the initial gold rush matured and solidified into one or two market players, then RIM has two choices: Become an OEM in the only (or only other) ecosystem, in this case most likely Android, or it can join the ranks of storied companies like Atari, Palm, Commodore and SEGA.

    (Personally I'd prefer the first option. Then again, I've owned as many RIM devices as Android and Apple devices, so I'm fairly hardware-agnostic)
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  21. gflashgordon11's Avatar
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    #171  

    Default Why BB10 Will likely fail, and what RIM can do.

    Well i for one am sticking with BB, I got my son an Android phone for his birthday, because that's what he wanted, I had a chance to play with it first (load it with apps i knew he liked) and to be totally honest I found it more to be a toy than anything else, where as my BB Torch is a perfectly good all rounder, which i'm very happy with, so can't wait to get my hands on a BB10 phone. I'm already due an upgrade so just hanging on
  22. sinsin07's Avatar
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    #172  

    Default Re: Why BB10 Will likely fail, and what RIM can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by reeneebob View Post
    ...Really.
    I've owned 4 android devices and never had an instance of malware. I remember a popular BB app maker spamming all who downloaded their app.
    Lets not go crazy with the hyperbole.
    Your personal experience is not a barometer for the entire platform.

    As they say, it's just a matter of time: malware LOL

    Could explain why there are more than 8 pages of antivirus/anti-malware programs on googleplay.

    Android is the Window 98 of mobile, its everywhere and and Google doesn't give a damn about security, just like MS back in the day.
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    #173  

    Default Re: Why BB10 Will likely fail, and what RIM can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by richardat View Post
    Right. The OP thinks they should have gone the other way. He may or may not be right. Personally, as I said earlier, I have doubts about whether Android could have kept the company in anything resembling it's current size/state (though the OP acknowledged this as well). The point of the reply is that you belittled the idea with a sarcastic insult toward him, then simply called it "bad". I doubt very much that Thor would have done that to him, or anyone else, considering he "seriously" considered it.

    It's troubling that you would be aware how seriously they considered it, and then - just because they decided not to go that way - belittle people who think they should have done that, on the strength of RIM's final decision. That is taking black and white thinking, and blind-faith to all new levels. IF you are using RIM's final decision to justify calling the other option "bad", then you should use RIM's "serious consideration" to acknowledge that it is not an easy call. If on the other hand, you simply believe the idea was always 'bad" and worthy of sarcastic insult, then you should deliver the same mockery to Thor for seriously consider it.
    I say move on Richard, it's how I chose to respond and who cares. I'm not Thor or anyone that matters and neither are you. Go save someone else if crackedintheheadbarry has an issue with it he can say so. I'm not the only on here that is sarcastic at times. If you don't like it report it or ignore it and move on. Quit getting off topic with me and my response that didn't hurt anyone. I didn't call the OP any names etc I said bad idea which I think it is.
    Sent from me using my fingers. Be pantless in 5K. Febreze - for more than smells.
    the 50K CrackBerry challenge
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  24. kbz1960's Avatar
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    #174  

    Default Re: Why BB10 Will likely fail, and what RIM can do.

    Quote Originally Posted by reeneebob View Post
    ...Really.

    I've owned 4 android devices and never had an instance of malware. I remember a popular BB app maker spamming all who downloaded their app.

    Lets not go crazy with the hyperbole.


    I have jawbone shards coming out of my gums ! from using Tapatalk.
    Just don't forget email spam isn't malware. And yes not everyone is going to be infected just like not everyone is infected using windows.
    Sent from me using my fingers. Be pantless in 5K. Febreze - for more than smells.
    the 50K CrackBerry challenge
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    reeneebob (11-12-2012) 
  25. kbz1960's Avatar
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    #175  

    Default Re: Why BB10 Will likely fail, and what RIM can do.

    Double post.
    Sent from me using my fingers. Be pantless in 5K. Febreze - for more than smells.
    the 50K CrackBerry challenge
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