[Maxxxpower]

Well, this is a Blackberry forum. Posting here that John Chen is a bit of a letdown for doesn't mean I cry all day and have nothing else to think about. It just fits the topic of what's discussed here.

[gvs1341]

Well, this is a Blackberry forum. Posting here that John Chen is a bit of a letdown for doesn't mean I cry all day and have nothing else to think about. It just fits the topic of what's discussed here.

I hadn't even replied to you originally :-)

I had quoted crackedup77 who had quoted someone else!

And I was OT and I had mentioned all tech sites, not just this thread!

Ciao!!! :-)

 Q5 / Z30

[lnichols]

Well, I'm with DarkJoker33, except for one fact.

Like you, I've also had my Z30 since launch. But I don't feel the need to upgrade. Want, maybe. But not need. The camera is way more than fine (then again maybe I should compare it to my DSLR like everyone seems to do), I have zero lag, and my screen isn't used to show live video feeds from brain surgery, so I'd still call that pretty damned good.

Your comparison of TVs just shows your argument in the same light as a 6 year old crying their eyes out for the newest and bestest Elmo doll, because the one they have is already 2 whole weeks old and, well, I want the new one damnit!! Nobody needs to upgrade their CRT to a flat screen if the old tube is still working, and I'm not sure you realize how many people still use them each and every day.

It gets irritating when people don't realize the difference between really NEEDING something, and wanting to upgrade their smartphone because, even though it still works just as it did on day one, it's not all shiny and new anymore. Hey, all the kids have 4K phones now for all those high resolution 'omg-look-at-this-insane-dessert-im-eating-dont-you-want-to-be-like-me' pics on Instagram, so I guess you should too.

I feel for you, man. That's a serious first world problem you got there.

Posted via CB10

My typical upgrade cycle is two years. Launch Z10 users are either past that or will be soon. That was the flagship all touch at launch. Z30 will be at two year window in October. You have to have product life cycles and replacement cycles to retain customers. Imagine all the BBOS users they converted to all touch, who no no longer want a PKB or thicker and heavier device, and have become reliant on Android apps, not having a BB10 device to upgrade to. You risk not only losing customers, but upset lost customers who will be very vocal in what they think of BlackBerry. Not a good situation, but one that BlackBerry could easily addressed by BlackBerry.

Posted via CB10

[DarkJoker33]

Well then, most of your post is nonsense. I have had the Z30 since close to launch and I am ready for a new phone. The camera is garbage and is really getting in the way of things. The screen is 720p at an age where quad HD is quickly becoming the norm. So no the specs are NOT up to the standards. If you think otherwise than you really haven't been paying attention to the market.And yes it is laggy. Specially when running android apps and even native apps. Well I have had my Z30 for a LOT longer than yours so you don't know what you're talking about.

I like how you are able to discern the motives of people clamouring for an all new touch device from their posts. Want vs need LOL. Way to miss the forest for the trees.

As for who cares? All the touch users do, who have had devices from launch and is ready to move on to another device. All the same users who will move on to alternatives if not given another option. We get shafted for being loyal and forced to either stay with dated hardware or move on,instead of having the option to use a better touch screen device. The z10 was already 2 years late to the market and Z30 is marginally better, so at this point these phones are way behind in the grand scheme of things.

It gets irritating when people don't see the peoples point of view in wanting to upgrade instead of stupidly responding with well why do you need a new one if the old one works? Well then why don't you stick with your old CRT tvs if they work fine, its not like you need HD resolution right?

Congratulations, you've had your phone longer than me.
Camera is garbage how?
Does it take pictures? Yup
Does it take. 5 seconds longer to focus than an iphone?
Omg not that, it's so horrible.
What is a 4k display needed for on a phone?
Do you watch NFL on there?
Last I knew, and this was a bit ago, is that the NFL is the only one shooting in 4k.

Again, omg no. The phone lags a bit on apps it not really supposed to run?
This is a travesty. Where's the president and seal team 6. This needs to be addressed immediately.
Are those "native apps" android port "natives"?
Or perhaps and app from a developer,that doesn't keep up on it?
That more on the dev.

Sounds like you want to be part of "the crowd".
Maybe you should go.

You've been with BlackBerry "for so long", you should know how they operate by now.
You came into the phone knowing what it can and can't do.

Posted via CB10

[Maxxxpower]

I hadn't even replied to you originally :-)

Should this prevent me from replying to you..?

[gvs1341]

@ Inichols:

Maybe the projected sales volume and target sale price for a Z50 didn't justify the R&D, manufacturing, support and distribution costs.

The Z30 has been selling at quite a price cut for quite a while - it wasn't exactly a hot seller at the time & price of release.

So maybe JC, in his quest to turn BBRY to profitability, didn't go down that path.

For the slider he might stick to the Passport's formula - low volume niche hardware at a very premium price.

The Enterprise customers might be happy to Leap for the revamped Z3!

And PKB users have the Passport.

The Classic is there for both Enterprise and for consumers not wanting to spend that much on the Passport.

 Q5 / Z30

[DarkJoker33]

@ Inichols:

Maybe the projected sales volume and target sale price for a Z50 didn't justify the R&D, manufacturing, support and distribution costs.

The Z30 has been selling at quite a price cut for quite a while - it wasn't exactly a hot seller at the time & price of release.



 Q5 / Z30

This is logical, and what I was going to address next

Posted via CB10

[DarkJoker33]

Take care of the customer base that stayed strong and stuck it out with 9900's and moving on to classics.
See how that plays out, and then address the all touch scenario after.

Smart business decisions to stay afloat.

The slider alone is a semi all touch, I understand that it's not full touch, but you have the option to use it as either.

Posted via CB10

[Chuck Finley69]

LOLOLOL - The company gave a roadmap - whether you like it or not - they've given a roadmap. They've announced 4 phones...they've explained a software focus....they've been saying this for months, JC has been saying this for months.

When the company says over and over and over, "Enterprise focus", guess what, it means they're not focused on consumers, meaning YOU. If you buy a phone as consumer, they will take your money, if you don't buy a phone or two, JC is not losing sleep.
If you're not happy with phones the company is offering, don't buy them. Company knows they can't make everyone happy and has anticipated further defection. Carrier salespeople will happily demo IOS or Android devices for you to choose from and show you new love.

Blackberry decided to breakup since they couldn't do what's best for them and be in a relationship with you. Breaking up hurts, and can be friends, but this is the new them and they're seeing other people now. But understand, Blackberry says it's not you, it's them.

Don't be the creepy guy that keeps hanging around now. Leave, go...why are you still here???

[lnichols]

@ Inichols:

Maybe the projected sales volume and target sale price for a Z50 didn't justify the R&D, manufacturing, support and distribution costs.

The Z30 has been selling at quite a price cut for quite a while - it wasn't exactly a hot seller at the time & price of release.

So maybe JC, in his quest to turn BBRY to profitability, didn't go down that path.

For the slider he might stick to the Passport's formula - low volume niche hardware at a very premium price.

The Enterprise customers might be happy to Leap for the revamped Z3!

And PKB users have the Passport.

The Classic is there for both Enterprise and for consumers not wanting to spend that much on the Passport.

 Q5 / Z30

Again!!!! BlackBerry has never released an all touch BB10 device with top line specs, and without either beta software or the specter of the company being chopped off for parts. Z10 launched with garbage 10.0 code and early 10.1 wasn't much better. Z30 was launched at the same time the for sale was put up with a launch event in a market irrelevant to the tech world. Now that they have the pieces in place, they have the ability to release an all touch device without these issue and can have an accurate read on whether or not an all touch, high end BlackBerry device can sell. They have proven with the Passport, that they can design and manufacture a low quantity of devices and be profitable with them, and an all touch will be able to be made cheaper due to less complicated manufacturing processes as opposed to sliders and PKB devices.

Posted via CB10

[donnation]

I'd be happy to stay with my Z30 for another year as I don't really have any problems with it. The thing I hate about it is the no LTE with AT&T. I also have a Passport but I much prefer a full touchscreen as I just don't type as well on the Passports spread out keyboard. If Blackberry would release an additional version of the Z30 with full LTE for AT&T I'd buy it in a minute.

[Maxxxpower]

LOLOLOL - The company gave a roadmap - whether you like it or not - they've given a roadmap.

You must have seen another event (in your mind?).
And no, the announcement of one device, a guy with a prototype in his hands and vague hints at two other devices are clearly not a roadmap.


Btw: some people are mixing up that that this thread is not about the lack of full touch devices but the lack of a roadmap.

[LuvULongTime]

@ Inichols:

Maybe the projected sales volume and target sale price for a Z50 didn't justify the R&D, manufacturing, support and distribution costs.

The Z30 has been selling at quite a price cut for quite a while - it wasn't exactly a hot seller at the time & price of release.

So maybe JC, in his quest to turn BBRY to profitability, didn't go down that path.

For the slider he might stick to the Passport's formula - low volume niche hardware at a very premium price.

The Enterprise customers might be happy to Leap for the revamped Z3!

And PKB users have the Passport.

The Classic is there for both Enterprise and for consumers not wanting to spend that much on the Passport.

 Q5 / Z30

We've all been over this a zillion times. The Z10 was released with beta SW, no apps, and a horrible marketing campaign. It had no chance. The Z30 was released with sub par specs from day 1. It was released when the company put itself up for sale, the OS still wasn't ready for prime time, and there was NO ADVERTISING.

Now in present day, we have in 10.3.1 a fully baked OS with a mixture of native and sanctioned android apps via amazon. All BlackBerry needs to do is release an all touch with Passport level specs at least. Control inventory, and market the heck out of it. This would be the first all touch phone that would actually stand a chance in the market. The first two had no chance for the reasons I have already stated above. Chen owes it to try all touch one more time and give it a real shot, not a half hearted attempt.

[AbAll87]

This thread is about a road map.

For people defending BlackBerry because they supposedly gave a road map , check the definition for road map

Road map: a detailed plan or explanation to guide you in setting standards or determining a course of action



Z10STL100-3/10.3.1.2267

[bb10adopter111]

I think we might have some folks who run lots of android apps and so need more power. I run 90% native BB10 apps and find my Z10 to be snappy and solid. So long as they offer a new all touch before the Z10 slows down or dies I'll be fine. But if I ran a bunch of non-optimized apps headless simultaneously, I'm sure I'd feel differently.

Posted via CB10

[gvs1341]

Now that they have the pieces in place, they have the ability to release an all touch device without these issue and can have an accurate read on whether or not an all touch, high end BlackBerry device can sell.

Now in present day, we have in 10.3.1 a fully baked OS with a mixture of native and sanctioned android apps via amazon. All BlackBerry needs to do is release an all touch with Passport level specs at least. Control inventory, and market the heck out of it. This would be the first all touch phone that would actually stand a chance in the market. The first two had no chance for the reasons I have already stated above. Chen owes it to try all touch one more time and give it a real shot, not a half hearted attempt.

Maybe BBRY doesn't have the $$$ for yet another trial. At least not in FY2015.

JC, BBRY's board and share holders will have the last say in above scenario - not we who want a Z50.

Honestly they DIDN'T really announce four devices at the MWC.

1. Leap - revamped Z3.
2. Porsche device - most probably a Porsche Design Passport.
3. The Slider
4. ??? !!! I don't consider coloured Classic variants as a new device.

That's only three new devices even if we consider the Porsche Design Passport as "new".

So whoever blurted out "four devices" during that presentation, from that stage yesterday either:
- Has habitual slip tongue moments, or
- Was drunk, or
- Lying outright, or
- Kept the details about 4th device to himself.

It's all speculation really. We can argue about what should / could be done but that won't make BBRY bring out a Z50 any sooner - because - 99% current smartphone users don't care.

 Q5 / Z30

[birdman_38]

I run 90% native BB10 apps and find my Z10 to be snappy and solid.

So you only run 10 apps? Lol

[sentimentGX4]

@ Inichols:

Maybe the projected sales volume and target sale price for a Z50 didn't justify the R&D, manufacturing, support and distribution costs.

The Z30 has been selling at quite a price cut for quite a while - it wasn't exactly a hot seller at the time & price of release.

This is actually a very good theory why Blackberry decided against an all touch device despite the greater demand among current BB10 users.

BlackBerry may have a higher ASP and therefore higher margin on PKB devices than all touch devices. I can definitely see that being the case given the deluge of cheap, quality Android devices.

Chen's goal may be to simply turn a profit or minimize losses from the hardware division. He isn't concerned about maintaining market share and so is willing to leave Z10 and Z30 users out in the cold.



P.S. Further evidence of this may be observed from the MSRP of the Classic vs. the LEAP despite having similar components. BBRY thinks that it can charge >$100 more by tacking on a keyboard while reducing touchscreen size. $100 adds a lot to Blackberry's bottom line.

[vegetto_456]

Congratulations, you've had your phone longer than me.
Camera is garbage how?
Does it take pictures? Yup
Does it take. 5 seconds longer to focus than an iphone?
Omg not that, it's so horrible.
What is a 4k display needed for on a phone?
Do you watch NFL on there?
Last I knew, and this was a bit ago, is that the NFL is the only one shooting in 4k.

Again, omg no. The phone lags a bit on apps it not really supposed to run?
This is a travesty. Where's the president and seal team 6. This needs to be addressed immediately.
Are those "native apps" android port "natives"?
Or perhaps and app from a developer,that doesn't keep up on it?
That more on the dev.

Sounds like you want to be part of "the crowd".
Maybe you should go.

You've been with BlackBerry "for so long", you should know how they operate by now.
You came into the phone knowing what it can and can't do.

Posted via CB10

You know that quad hd is not the same thing as 4k right? The camera takes horrible quality pictures. At this day and age when we use our phones as our main camera in our day to day lives, a terrible camera def is a huge negative. No I don't carry around my slr around everywhere with me but I do have my phone. I don't get your attitude honestly. Why are you willing to settle for mediocrity and not wanting more from blackberry? Being an apologist doesn't help anyone, least of all yourself.

Stockholm syndrome much bud?

Posted via CB10

[vegetto_456]

Well, I'm with DarkJoker33, except for one fact.

Like you, I've also had my Z30 since launch. But I don't feel the need to upgrade. Want, maybe. But not need. The camera is way more than fine (then again maybe I should compare it to my DSLR like everyone seems to do), I have zero lag, and my screen isn't used to show live video feeds from brain surgery, so I'd still call that pretty damned good.

Your comparison of TVs just shows your argument in the same light as a 6 year old crying their eyes out for the newest and bestest Elmo doll, because the one they have is already 2 whole weeks old and, well, I want the new one damnit!! Nobody needs to upgrade their CRT to a flat screen if the old tube is still working, and I'm not sure you realize how many people still use them each and every day.

It gets irritating when people don't realize the difference between really NEEDING something, and wanting to upgrade their smartphone because, even though it still works just as it did on day one, it's not all shiny and new anymore. Hey, all the kids have 4K phones now for all those high resolution 'omg-look-at-this-insane-dessert-im-eating-dont-you-want-to-be-like-me' pics on Instagram, so I guess you should too.

I feel for you, man. That's a serious first world problem you got there.

Posted via CB10

Quad hd is not the same as 4k first of all and second, no one is comparing the camera to slr. They are comparing to flagships of yesteryears. Thats not even counting the phones coming out this year. But I digress. If you're comparing the camera to flagships around the time z30 came out, you will see that the z30 falls behind the competition.

Posted via CB10

[MarsupilamiX]

The Z30 has been selling at quite a price cut for quite a while - it wasn't exactly a hot seller at the time & price of release.

Did you see into what market BlackBerry launched the Z30?
Did you see how BlackBerry priced and specced the Z30 at launch?
To say it simply, the Z30 pretty much was the worst phone you could buy for 600$.
It was a 300$ phone and everyone knew it. The market later corrected BlackBerry's pricing mistake.

So, if the Z30 wasn't exactly a hot seller, then because it had no ecosystem, had worse specs than every 300$ Android at the time, but got sold for 600$.
The touch form-factor wasn't the problem. The Z30 was the problem.

So maybe JC, in his quest to turn BBRY to profitability, didn't go down that path.

The market buys touchscreen phones in 99.9% of the cases by now, in all different market tiers.

If Chen wants to save the BlackBerry handset division, then the only way to profitability is to have devices with mass market appeal or to sell their devices for 6 times(more or less) the ASP of their competitors phone.

It's either, or, in the case mentioned above though.
2000$ keyboard phones don't have mass appeal and 600$ for mass appealing flagships is pretty much the standard price.
Not having an all touch flagship is pretty much one of the safest way to ensure that the handset division will disappear soon.

For the slider he might stick to the Passport's formula - low volume niche hardware at a very premium price.

What Premium price? Huh?
The Passport is the most normally priced BlackBerry I have seen im quite some time.
It doesn't use the best specs out there, but 600$ is the standard flagship pricing.
The Passport doesn't sell for 3000$. That's a premium price.

The Enterprise customers might be happy to Leap for the revamped Z3!

At 240$ I doubt it. You'll get twice as many fleet phones if you go down the Android/WP route.
It's definitely a much much much better device for the Enterprise than the Classic, but I don't really see most enterprise customers changing back to BlackBerry because of the Leap.

The Classic is there for both Enterprise and for consumers not wanting to spend that much on the Passport.
 Q5 / Z30

99.9% of people buy touch phones now. And if I have the choice to pay 450$ for a revamped Q10 or 600$ for a real upgrade, I'll buy the Passport.
I'm not a keyboard guy though, so I won't buy neither.
For Enterprise buyers, the Classic is overall too expensive. At 250$, the phone would have been fine, even though it has a keyboard (which is a negative differentiatior nowadays).

[crackberry_geek]

Mr Chen, you promised a 12 month roadmap. Instead we got another S4 device that leaked already and the preview of another strange device that will be probably as "successful" as the Passport. Additionally a Porsche device that isn't of any interest for most of us. Is that all we get in the next 12 months? What about the fourth device? You mean the new Classic colors? Is that what you call a roadmap?

Spot on OP!

Mr Chen... get a clue.

BlackBerry 2015 = Stealing defeat from the jaws of victory.

Posted via CB10

[MarsupilamiX]

Take care of the customer base that stayed strong and stuck it out with 9900's and moving on to classics.
See how that plays out, and then address the all touch scenario after.

Smart business decisions to stay afloat.

The slider alone is a semi all touch, I understand that it's not full touch, but you have the option to use it as either.

Posted via CB10

BlackBerry hasn't been a smart business for about 6 years now?
Ever followed the quarterly reports?
Never realised that BlackBerry already lost money in the days of the 9900?
The Classic is DOA. "Nobody" buys physical keyboard devices anymore. The only smart thing BlackBerry announced was the Leap.

And if you are another of those honestly suggesting that people buy a slider, who don't want a physical keyboard...
You still don't get that people genuinely prefer the touchscreen. Alone. Without keyboard add ons.

Just look at the sales. BlackBerry being the only keyboard manufacturer should give you an idea about the market size.
Combine it with the info that BlackBerry hasn't been profitable in the last 5 years, and you should have an idea on how sustainable a strategy focused on physical keyboard phones might be. (hint: it destroyed and still destroys the company. The market has rejected the physical keyboard, and thus BlackBerry as well. It's not hard to understand if you leave the CrackBerry bubble. People don't give an eff about keyboards anymore. Those times have passed.)

[crackberry_geek]

The market buys touchscreen phones in 99.9% of the cases by now, in all different market tiers.

If Chen wants to save the BlackBerry handset division, then the only way to profitability is to have devices with mass market appeal or to sell their devices for 6 times(more or less) the ASP of their competitors phone.

It's either, or, in the case mentioned above though.
2000$ keyboard phones don't have mass appeal and 600$ for mass appealing flagships is pretty much the standard price.
Not having an all touch flagship is pretty much one of the safest way to ensure that the handset division will disappear soon.

Chen's actions are much easier to understand once one recognizes that he really doesn't want to save the hand set division.

While standing behind his excuse of "intending" to stay in such markets (weasel words)... every action he takes confirms otherwise.

Posted via CB10

[MarsupilamiX]

You must have seen another event (in your mind?).
And no, the announcement of one device, a guy with a prototype in his hands and vague hints at two other devices are clearly not a roadmap.


Btw: some people are mixing up that that this thread is not about the lack of full touch devices but the lack of a roadmap.

I'll be the first to admit to your BTW.
But, those issues are intertwined.
No matter how detailed the roadmap would have been....
It would have lacked something without a full touch flagship.

Oth, I actually agree with your thesis.
This wasn't a roadmap.
This was a pitch for a business plan to their investors.
It actually reminded me of startups, trying to raise capital and promising the most interesting things through vaporware.

The whole software suite is vapor for now.
The Slider... No specs, no release, no pricing. A prototype. Something a startup usually needs to pitch their ideas successfully. Nothing you'd expect from a smartphone manufacturer who is in the business since the early 2000's.

The hints for the other devices... Vapor again. Nothing tangible at all.
So yes, this might have been called a Roadmap, but for me this clearly looks like a sales pitch to investors, where you try to sell potential, instead of something real.

Chen's actions are much easier to understand once one recognizes that he really doesn't want to save the hand set division.

While standing behind his excuse of "intending" to stay in such markets (weasel words)... every action he takes confirms otherwise.

Posted via CB10

I don't disagree.
Especially with this "roadmap", it confirms the suspicions to be honest.

Nothing he has done makes sense, if I suppose that he wants to save the hardware business.
J.Chen's data gathering/analysis team can't be that bad, that they recommend making more keyboard phones nobody wants. I just can't believe it anymore.

If however, I suppose that he quietly wants to kill the handset business, while he needed some money from handset sales to make the transition to a SaaS company...
The choices actually start to make sense.