[ubizmo]

Timely article: How Every App Developer Helps Defend Android And iOS Against A Smartphone Revolution - Forbes

From that article:

When you look at the continued success of Android and iOS, the army of developers provides many wins for the platforms. They publish the apps that make the handsets more attractive. They provide services that lock customers in. And by the sheer volume of developers, and a natural resistance to switching development platforms, the two leading mobile operating systems have created a moat around one of their most valuable resources to stop other platforms building any significant mainstream momentum

[sentimentGX4]

I must say I have never and still don't understand why they ignored North America so thoroughly. It made them unable to counter the iOS/Android smartphone onslaught.

Nokia smartphones were never competitive with iPhone or Android. Much like Blackberry, it had problems balancing maintaining an OS and smartphone hardware.

Devices would be delayed and when they were finally released they would arrive with a clunky OS and horrible specs due to lack of coordination between the two departments and, back then, having lower specs made the performance of the devices really noticeable. I was a Nokia 5800 owner and my device would run into multiple "low memory" phones every single time I web browsed.

To illustrate how outdated smartphones were, the N97 was in the same gen as the iPhone 4. The former had a ARM11 434 mhz CPU and the other had a 1 ghz ARM Cortex A8. For the Nokia 808, it had a 1.3 ghz ARM11 while competitors had dual core 1.2 GHZ ARM Cortex A9 processors. Not only that, but Nokia phones were bricks with tiny displays vs. Samsung or even Apple. (Back in Symbian S^1 fans were actually arguing 3.5" displays were too big.)

Ultimately, after Nokia gave up on Symbian as well as Maemo, their hardware improved drastically. The Lumia 800, despite still being outdated, came with the most modern smartphone specs Nokia had ever released since the N95 era. Since then, Nokia hardware had a resurgence around WP8 launch time. For this year and WP8.1, however, Nokia hardware has weakened once again. Though, it will still never be bad as the Symbian days.

[crackbrry fan]

I never said that I am a good person
(@ abusing the desperate BB10 owners)

If anything is unclear to you, feel free to ask though!
(deciphering has this connotation for me, of being needed when someone sends cryptic messages)

Posted via CB10

Oh sorry, I speed read but those were the key words that popped up and quite aptly describes the general concensus Amongst developers. Please clear up my perception .

Posted via CB10

[CanuckBB]

I don't get why they don't just pay some of these BB10 develoeprs that are hacking their APIs and are obviously doing them a favour by finding security exploits, $20K and get them to build and maintain a BB10 app. BB10 users don't have any expectations and it's not like we'd particularly be expecting a speedy update cycle. It comes down to lack of will.

I don't know where you're from, but around here, you are not going to find many developers working for $20K. Entry level is more at the $30K-$40K rate. Add the benefits, and the fully loaded costs of that $30K developer is closer to $40K, not including stuff like space, power, equipment. . At $1.00 per, you have to sell 40,000 copies of those apps every year before you turn a profit on that developer.

IDC predicts the BB's market share will drop to 0.3% by 2018. In a market approaching 300 million units, that's 900,000 units. So you need 4.5% of the market to buy your app every year to just support that developer.

[Brandon Orr]

I don't know where you're from, but around here, you are not going to find many developers working for $20K. Entry level is more at the $30K-$40K rate. Add the benefits, and the fully loaded costs of that $30K developer is closer to $40K, not including stuff like space, power, equipment. . At $1.00 per, you have to sell 40,000 copies of those apps every year before you turn a profit on that developer.

IDC predicts the BB's market share will drop to 0.3% by 2018. In a market approaching 300 million units, that's 900,000 units. So you need 4.5% of the market to buy your app every year to just support that developer.

I'm talking about indie developers who aren't working for a company. You think some University Student who is developing apps anyway would refuse $20K to build an app? Obviously there would be ongoing payment for maintenance. But it was more of an acknowledgement that it's not millions of dollars. And I do know third party BlackBerry developers who have made well over $40K with the current OS userbase. Don't forget...to Facebook and Snapchat the value of a user is worth waaaaay more than $1 I think Snapchat users were pegged at like $15-20 per user. These companies don't make money from the app, it's just an avenue for people to access their services and tap on ads, etc. So you can't really equate capital costs of building the app with revenues or profits in the traditional sense.

edit: I'd also like to add that based on what I've found with mobile apps, it's not so much the mobile apps that cost money maintaining, it's the actual back-end that chews up a bunch of the money. That Back-end servers and file hosting will be maintained and upgraded regardless of whether a BB10 app is built or not.

[Ment]

I'm talking about indie developers who aren't working for a company. You think some University Student who is developing apps anyway would refuse $20K to build an app? Obviously there would be ongoing payment for maintenance. But it was more of an acknowledgement that it's not millions of dollars. And I do know third party BlackBerry developers who have made well over $40K with the current OS userbase. Don't forget...to Facebook and Snapchat the value of a user is worth waaaaay more than $1 I think Snapchat users were pegged at like $15-20 per user. These companies don't make money from the app, it's just an avenue for people to access their services and tap on ads, etc. So you can't really equate capital costs of building the app with revenues or profits in the traditional sense.

edit: I'd also like to add that based on what I've found with mobile apps, it's not so much the mobile apps that cost money maintaining, it's the actual back-end that chews up a bunch of the money. That Back-end servers and file hosting will be maintained and upgraded regardless of whether a BB10 app is built or not.

But what apps would BB pay for. If its a clone of other apps than BB is on the hook for the IP/trademark infringement if there are not prior agreements. How do you achieve feature parity and support. Look at the BB Facebook app. It pales in comparison to IOS/Android versions. Its not as easy as throwing some thousands at poor college students or some indie dev. You've got to keep throwing thousands even tho there is no ROI after you've sold your app for a buck because the app using public have been conditioned not to pay for updates.

On sunk costs, thats like saying raising kids doesn't cost much cause if you have a spare room then whether its used or not doesn't have an effect on the mortgage.

[Brandon Orr]

But what apps would BB pay for. If its a clone of other apps than BB is on the hook for the IP/trademark infringement if there are not prior agreements. How do you achieve feature parity and support. Look at the BB Facebook app. It pales in comparison to IOS/Android versions. Its not as easy as throwing some thousands at poor college students or some indie dev. You've got to keep throwing thousands even tho there is no ROI after you've sold your app for a buck because the app using public have been conditioned not to pay for updates.

On sunk costs, thats like saying raising kids doesn't cost much cause if you have a spare room then whether its used or not doesn't have an effect on the mortgage.

No, No, I meant the actual companies pay for the app.

[TGR1]

No, No, I meant the actual companies pay for the app.

Did you ask any of the bigger developers you have spoken with why they don't (hire a student)? Seems like the best source for the answer.

[early2bed]

Hire a student, get a bunch of interns, pick up day laborers at Home Depot...what does that prove? Theoretically any business should be able to get things done on the cheap via these methods. The problem is that you usually get what you pay for.

Maybe I should ask my accountant why they can't hire accounting students to do my taxes so that I don't have to pay $2,000 every year. It can't be that hard. I guess I don't understand accounting any more than some of you understand mobile app development.

[unbreakablej]

Actually the recent trend in the legal industry in my country has been to hire trainees rather than associated because they don't even get any benefits, just a monthly allowance.

Posted via CB10

[Brandon Orr]

Did you ask any of the bigger developers you have spoken with why they don't (hire a student)? Seems like the best source for the answer.

They're just the developers they don't have a say. Seems to be a decision up in management who makes the shots.

[Brandon Orr]

Hire a student, get a bunch of interns, pick up day laborers at Home Depot...what does that prove? Theoretically any business should be able to get things done on the cheap via these methods. The problem is that you usually get what you pay for.

Maybe I should ask my accountant why they can't hire accounting students to do my taxes so that I don't have to pay $2,000 every year. It can't be that hard. I guess I don't understand accounting any more than some of you understand mobile app development.

That's completely different, especially when you have indie developers like Nemory who are sniffing APIs left and right and making better native apps than their android equivalents. A student accountant on the other hand needs certifications just to even be able to touch your taxes which add to the cost. A developer can be anyone they don't need a certification to start coding. And while you get what you pay for, an accountant messing up can land you in jail, a bad app will not.

Edit: i'd also like to point out the prevalence of unpaid interns or minimum wage interns at firms around the world that specifically hire students because they are cheaper AND can get the job done.

[Ment]

That's completely different, especially when you have indie developers like Nemory who are sniffing APIs left and right and making better native apps than their android equivalents. A student accountant on the other hand needs certifications just to even be able to touch your taxes which add to the cost. A developer can be anyone they don't need a certification to start coding. And while you get what you pay for, an accountant messing up can land you in jail, a bad app will not.

Edit: i'd also like to point out the prevalence of unpaid interns or minimum wage interns at firms around the world that specifically hire students because they are cheaper AND can get the job done.

No serious development company is going to rely on interns to make their apps. For every Nemory there many more that aren't even worth an intern salary. If you're a project manager and you tell your boss you're going to rely on interns because of the lower wage scale and then you'd better get ready to have your head on a pike when delays happen and that decision will be singled out as the reason even if it isn't.

Read a sobering look at the costs of app development for Twitterific

ith such a short schedule, we worked some pretty long hours. Let's be conservative and say it's 10 hours per day for 6 days a week. That 60 hours for 9 weeks gives us 540 hours. With two developers, that's pretty close to 1,100 hours. Our rate for clients is $150 per hour giving $165,000 just for new code. Remember also that we were reusing a bunch existing code: I'm going to lowball the value of that code at $35,000 giving a total development cost of $200,000.

Anyone who's done serious iPhone development can tell you there's a lot of design work involved with any project. We had two designers working on that aspect of the product. They worked their asses off dealing with completely new interaction mechanics. Don't forget they didn't have any hardware to touch, either (LOTS of printouts!) Combined they spent at least 25 hours per week on the project. So 225 hours at $150/hr is about $34,000.

There are also other costs that many developer neglect to take into account: project management, testing, equipment. Again, if we lowball that figure at $16,000 we're at $250,000. This number falls in line with Jonathan Wight's (@schwa) $50-150K estimate with the 22 day Obama app.

Take another hit, dude.

Now if you want to build backend services for your app, that number's going to go up even more. Everyone seems surprised that Instagram chewed through $500K in venture funding to build a new frontend and backend. I'm not.

[Brandon Orr]

No serious development company is going to rely on interns to make their apps. For every Nemory there many more that aren't even worth an intern salary. If you're a project manager and you tell your boss you're going to rely on interns because of the lower wage scale and then you'd better get ready to have your head on a pike when delays happen and that decision will be singled out as the reason even if it isn't.

Read a sobering look at the costs of app development for Twitterific

What I'm getting at is that app development is more prevalent today than it ever was and in the hands of so many people. You have twelve year olds building apps. It's not some secret language that only a few know. And as such developing apps don't cost as much as they used to. It simply doesn't require the resources it used to 3 or 4 years ago. There's ONE developer who builds and maintains the WhatsApp app on BB10. A similar project probably would've required two or three people 4 or 5 years ago. That's what I'm saying. The development cost of the app isn't what's holding back companies from building a BB10 native cascades app.

[early2bed]

Just because it can be done in a half-assed way doesn't mean that a corporation can do it that way. Do you think a bank can just hire someone to develop an app that scrapes content off their website and call it an app? Putting out a free app under an pseudonym is a lot different then officially supporting a platform with an app that has your company brand on it. That brand could be worth billions. You not only need a professional team of developers, you need a company that you can sue the pants off of if they damage your brand. And that team of developers are going to charge that corporation 10 times more because they have to be 10 times more diligent about their work.

The fact is that companies that develop for mobile are not supporting BB10 and have no plans to until some mythical Blackberry resurgence. Whether they are lazy, incompetent, conspiring against Blackberry, or making a simple business decision is a moot point because it's not up to us, is it? Nothing that happens on this thread is going to change that.

[Ment]

What I'm getting at is that app development is more prevalent today than it ever was and in the hands of so many people. You have twelve year olds building apps. It's not some secret language that only a few know. And as such developing apps don't cost as much as they used to. It simply doesn't require the resources it used to 3 or 4 years ago. There's ONE developer who builds and maintains the WhatsApp app on BB10. A similar project probably would've required two or three people 4 or 5 years ago. That's what I'm saying. The development cost of the app isn't what's holding back companies from building a BB10 native cascades app.

The goods apps today are more complex than apps from 3-4 years as well. You can't compare the costs of single developers to teams because the cost structure is different. They aren't billing what their skills would bring in the open market which would include labor/healthcare/retirement/benefits etc. If they did calculate the opportunity costs they might find they aren't making very much money. In exchange their deferred compensation they own the entirety of their work as far as the app goes. Also single devs don't take on complex projects like teams do. So you can get a Flappy Bird but not a FlipBoard.

[Soulstream]

OK. 1 intern/student makes the app. That app must be maintained/updated/bug-fixed/etc. Software development isn't something easy and creating a GREAT app takes lots of time and money.

[Soulstream]

From that article:

When you look at the continued success of Android and iOS, the army of developers provides many wins for the platforms. They publish the apps that make the handsets more attractive. They provide services that lock customers in. And by the sheer volume of developers, and a natural resistance to switching development platforms, the two leading mobile operating systems have created a moat around one of their most valuable resources to stop other platforms building any significant mainstream momentum

also another good quote from that article is: "We have no plans to build our own OS. It’s easy to design a new OS, but the problem is building the ecosystem around it." And that's exactly what BB did with BB10. It created a great OS with no ecosystem and now they must "steal" from another ecosystem (android).

[skibnik]

Can someone please explain why Netflix refuses to have a native app? BlackBerry approached them and practicality begged on hands and knees offering to write and maintain the app themselves and pay Netflix a license fee for the api same goes for instagram. What possible reason would there be for them to boycott BB10?

Z30 and loving it!

[Tre Lawrence]

Can someone please explain why Netflix refuses to have a native app? BlackBerry approached them and practicality begged on hands and knees offering to write and maintain the app themselves and pay Netflix a license fee for the api same goes for instagram. What possible reason would there be for them to boycott BB10?

Z30 and loving it!

IIRC, BBRY made a silly overture via Twitter... something about sending developers over, and even retweeting stuff calling Netflix CEO names.

But I think there were negotiations in the background, and I believe app ransoms were at play. BBRY didn't pay.

I agree with Netflix's assertion that making a BB10 native app makes no sense from a "gaining new subscribers" point of view. The ill-fated boycott shows it was a good decision

[Blue787]

If one steps back in the immediate state, we'll realize based on app uptake alone and the brandished term "ecosystem" it would appear BlackBerry doesn't have a chance in hell. The bottom line is indeed important, and hence a developer would be most fool hearted to think he can gain his bread and butter on a platform with around 1% adoption in the mobile market.

How does BlackBerry counter this ? Not being a tech head I wouldn't even hazard a guess at a suggestion, it maybe uninformed at best. However, there is a market for BlackBerry and its products. I personally left not because of an app shortage, but rather due to the conformist approach BlackBerry took as it sought to address the runaway touch screen onslaught by Apple and Google.

The new shiny attempts, multiple models, followed by high return rates, heavy losses on the Playbook, and seemingly bad decision after decision had placed BlackBerry at the cross roads. Strangely, whilst suffering on the consumer side, BlackBerry also suffered heavy losses on the enterprise side of the pond. All stuff we already know.

Has BlackBerry made a good enough case for BB OS10/7 over the interim to garner support from developers worldwide ? What has been the value added incentive ? Has a true ROI picture been painted for developers given the alter low market share of the platform ?

As we watch the development of Chen and company new products I can't help but wonder if a lesson is to be learned from history. Shut up shop,file Chp. 11 ? I suggest not. BlackBerry has an opportunity though marginal in the upcoming releases to once again appeal to developers.

Given the scope of the Passport and it varies possible applications in the enterprise and health care, will we see the results of serious and persistent ground work by Chen and company ? For me from my vantage point, BlackBerrys' issues are one of first perception, then adoption, followed by development.

I would warn however, quality over quantity should be the take home message of Chen come September, it is an uphill battle whereas the quality of a platform is now at the mercy of the voluminous nature of said platform.

Here's wishing Chen and the goodly people in Waterloo all the best at the turning of the calendar. Cheers !

Posted via CrackBerry App

[Thunderbuck]

IIRC, BBRY made a silly overture via Twitter... something about sending developers over, and even retweeting stuff calling Netflix CEO names.

But I think there were negotiations in the background, and I believe app ransoms were at play. BBRY didn't pay.

I agree with Netflix's assertion that making a BB10 native app makes no sense from a "gaining new subscribers" point of view. The ill-fated boycott shows it was a good decision

Actually, Netflix was the one company where I really did wonder their motives. I mean, they supported the Wii and the PS Vita; would BB10 really have killed them?

I think MS quietly applied a little back room persuasion in their case.

Posted from CB10 running on my awesome Z30 2B6927F7

[MarsupilamiX]

Actually, Netflix was the one company where I really did wonder their motives. I mean, they supported the Wii and the PS Vita; would BB10 really have killed them?

I think MS quietly applied a little back room persuasion in their case.

Posted from CB10 running on my awesome Z30 2B6927F7

No idea about the PS Vita, but the Wii was the console that sold the most units in the last generation.

So.... Yeah it's totally logical to support that one, and not BB10, which had... 1 million users back then?

Posted via CB10

[Yatezy]

No idea about the PS Vita, but the Wii was the console that sold the most units in the last generation.

So.... Yeah it's totally logical to support that one, and not BB10, which had... 1 million users back then?

Posted via CB10

It actually makes more sense to support consoles, even ones that sell in limited numbers, than it does phones. I got a netflix account solely because I can watch it on my playstation and thus on my TV.

[MmmHmm]

Can someone please explain why Netflix refuses to have a native app? BlackBerry approached them and practicality begged on hands and knees offering to write and maintain the app themselves and pay Netflix a license fee for the api same goes for instagram. What possible reason would there be for them to boycott BB10?

Z30 and loving it!

If I ran a large company like Netflix (which I don't), I wouldn't let another company develop and maintain my app on their platform. Will the app be properly supported? Will bugs be fixed in a timely manner? If Netflix wants to change branding or image, will the app be updated for the new look? Will BlackBerry make sure to update its app to include the same features as on the other platforms? If customers complain about the app or leave bad reviews, will BlackBerry be responsive? BlackBerry has a reputation for bad customer service.

Too much loss of control over the product. If I ran a company like Netflix, I would decide to either support a platform or not. I wouldn't just shrug my shoulders and say, eh, just let BlackBerry do it.