[keithhackneysmullet]

It doesn't have to be pkb or full touch there is no reason they couldn't have a flagship pkb and a flagship slab.

Posted via CB10

[Soapm]

But the Bentleys use the existing infrastructure. It's more like if Bentley had to use special gas stations and roads.

And BB uses existing carrier infrastructure.

But compare the ride of a Bentley to a Chevy on a bumpy road, or compare the difference in highway noise...

[twiggyrj]

And BB uses existing carrier infrastructure.



But compare the ride of a Bentley to a Chevy on a bumpy road, or compare the difference in highway noise...

I think what he/she meant was that a Bentley isn't hampered compared to other cars like a BlackBerry is hampered by lack of apps compared to iOS/Android and to a lesser extent Windows Phone so comparing a BlackBerry to a Bentley isn't an accurate comparison.

[Soapm]

It doesn't have to be pkb or full touch there is no reason they couldn't have a flagship pkb and a flagship slab.

Posted via CB10

Not sure why some want BB to further reduce their customer base by cutting off the PKB then drown in the crowded pool of touch screens??? I know touch screens are the future but as long as you can, you might as well keep your devoted customers.

I remember when they said manual transmissions were a thing of the past... Sure, there's not as many as there once were, but they still make them to this day...

[asherN]

And BB uses existing carrier infrastructure.

But compare the ride of a Bentley to a Chevy on a bumpy road, or compare the difference in highway noise...

But the app gap makes like if the Bentley relied on specific gas stations. Which were few and far between.

[asherN]

Not sure why some want BB to further reduce their customer base by cutting off the PKB then drown in the crowded pool of touch screens??? I know touch screens are the future but as long as you can, you might as well keep your devoted customers.

I remember when they said manual transmissions were a thing of the past... Sure, there's not as many as there once were, but they still make them to this day...

Your car analogies just don't make sense. I don't need to rely on specialized fuel, oil, accessories to make the most out of a standard transmission car.

[tollfeeder]

App neutrality is a crock. It means writing to the lowest common denominator. Even assuming that there is an easy way to leverage the hardware of all platforms easily, the BB form factor is still a barrier.

I'm sure a developer would love to be able to write an app and just compile it for every platform out there. Thing is, every platform out there is 16:9. What is the incentive for the developer to rework the UI for 1:1? Or to account for a PKB?

First, there is no so called "BB form factor" or are you not aware that there are rectangular BlackBerry devices available as well?! Second, neither every app nor every game has the need to be widescreen. It's an aspect ratio very well suited for movies and TV shows but why would apps like Instagram, Skype and Snapchat need to be 16:9? Beats me. Furthermore most modern game engines are capable of adapting the native resolution and resize the image without distorting it. There are games running nicely on various devices AND form factors. Third, porting is a task more thoroughly done than just hammering the compiler button especially between Android and iOS.‎

Via Pasta CB10

[kraidx]

App neutrality is a crock. It means writing to the lowest common denominator. Even assuming that there is an easy way to leverage the hardware of all platforms easily, the BB form factor is still a barrier.

I'm sure a developer would love to be able to write an app and just compile it for every platform out there. Thing is, every platform out there is 16:9. What is the incentive for the developer to rework the UI for 1:1? Or to account for a PKB?

A very good point of the view, I would like to see developers and BlackBerry's take on this.

Posted via CB10

[Bbnivende]

Are the Android apps really really bad on your Classic and Passport?

Posted via CB10

[anon(153966)]

To me, for the very few that I use, they are not 100%. Sometimes they work flawlessly, sometimes, not at all...

Are the Android apps really really bad on your Classic and Passport?

Posted via CB10

[Soapm]

I think what he/she meant was that a Bentley isn't hampered compared to other cars like a BlackBerry is hampered by lack of apps compared to iOS/Android and to a lesser extent Windows Phone so comparing a BlackBerry to a Bentley isn't an accurate comparison.

Would you take your Bentley to grease monkey for an oil change? Would you fill it with the cheapest gas you can find? Would you stick a Garmin to the windshield of your Bentley? If you stand back and look you will see it "should" be an accurate analogy, except BB fell off its perch when it tried to compete on the low end with devices like the Storm. And they still haven't learned that is not their place which is evident by the LEAP.

What I'm saying is BB should have been content being the Bentley of Smartphones. No, you can't get manual windows and no one will want to hang dice from the mirror, but so what, I drive a Bentley, a name that speaks for itself...

[Soapm]

Your car analogies just don't make sense. I don't need to rely on specialized fuel, oil, accessories to make the most out of a standard transmission car.

Step back and you will see what I'm saying, putting a manual transmission in a car doesn't change the gas type like adding a PKB doesn't change the battery in the phone. But it does present an option that might sell another vehicle, and in these days of many options and slim profit margins, you don't start sending your loyal customers to a different manufacturer...

Remember, it was trying to compete with the masses in the low end market with devices like the Storm that knocked BB off the top, you don't fix that by staying in the crowded pool, hoping someone will notice your device, drowning, among the many they DO recognize like Android and iOS. You might as well leave that pool, dry yourself off and find another pool (market) where you stand a chance of being noticed and can again be king...

I'm suggesting they go back to being Bentley, and be content with your less than 1% market share that are proud to be Bentley owners... But to do that, you have to give them the best darn flawless device on the market...

[Soapm]

But the app gap makes like if the Bentley relied on specific gas stations. Which were few and far between.

Doesn't it? You ever see a Bentley at a cheap gas station??? And I also won't go get a can of fix a flat to fix my Bentley's tire.

However, what if Android was only the first runtime environment? What if they developed an iOS and Windows environment? Then you can run any app you want...

The question then is, is that still a BB and is that a phone you want?

[kenicolo]

I am sadly aware of those limitation. This doesn't mean that they can't work something out or that this proposition would not solve the app gap.

Posted via CB10

[MarsupilamiX]

Step back and you will see what I'm saying, putting a manual transmission in a car doesn't change the gas type like adding a PKB doesn't change the battery in the phone. But it does present an option that might sell another vehicle, and in these days of many options and slim profit margins, you don't start sending your loyal customers to a different manufacturer...

Remember, it was trying to compete with the masses in the low end market with devices like the Storm that knocked BB off the top, you don't fix that by staying in the crowded pool, hoping someone will notice your device, drowning, among the many they DO recognize like Android and iOS. You might as well leave that pool, dry yourself off and find another pool (market) where you stand a chance of being noticed and can again be king...

I'm suggesting they go back to being Bentley, and be content with your less than 1% market share that are proud to be Bentley owners... But to do that, you have to give them the best darn flawless device on the market...

Car analogies suck. They always do.

Garmin Navi and cheapest gas?
We call it the Amazon store and Snap on BB10.

Why is the manual transmission the equivalent of the keyboard? Why isn't it the steering wheel? Or the break pedal?
Why? Because car analogies suck and are never accurate.

The moment you equate BlackBerry to Bentley, is the moment the theoretical basis of your analogy disappears into thin air. Not even accounting for some other logical fallacies.

Bentley is a small scale luxury manufacturer owned by the VW group. BlackBerry is a small scale manufacturer not in the luxury segment.
The analogy breaks apart on that simple point already.

Bentley sells cars for an ASP of around 300k American Dollars (give or take). Depending on where you want to set the average, a typical BMW (already a luxury manufacturer compared to Toyota) will cost around 50k.
Obviously, a 50k BMW doesn't compete with the 300k Bentley though, since those are completely different target segments.

Looking at BlackBerry, they obviously aren't a luxury manufacturer and they do not sell their phones for 6 times the ASP of a Samsung/Apple.
Samsung/Apple/BlackBerry flagships are all around the 600$ mark.

Tldr, car analogies suck, dont use them.

Doesn't it? You ever see a Bentley at a cheap gas station??? And I also won't go get a can of fix a flat to fix my Bentley's tire.

However, what if Android was only the first runtime environment? What if they developed an iOS and Windows environment? Then you can run any app you want...

The question then is, is that still a BB and is that a phone you want?

You ever see a BlackBerry with Snap and the Amazon Store?
Oh wait....


Edit:
I just realised it...
You think that the Storm was cheap???
Or that Curve like devices didn't keep BlackBerry alive thanks to emerging markets?

Everybody can have his/her opinions, but the facts clearly contradict what you are saying.

[twiggyrj]

Would you take your Bentley to grease monkey for an oil change? Would you fill it with the cheapest gas you can find? Would you stick a Garmin to the windshield of your Bentley? If you stand back and look you will see it "should" be an accurate analogy, except BB fell off its perch when it tried to compete on the low end with devices like the Storm. And they still haven't learned that is not their place which is evident by the LEAP.

What I'm saying is BB should have been content being the Bentley of Smartphones. No, you can't get manual windows and no one will want to hang dice from the mirror, but so what, I drive a Bentley, a name that speaks for itself...

When I think Bentley I think prestige, all powerful, luxury and no compromise. No smartphone is anywhere near that level of prestige, I would say BlackBerry is more of a Saab than a Bentley. Just because its niche doesn't means its a Rolls Royce or a Bentley.

[TgeekB]

Not sure why some want BB to further reduce their customer base by cutting off the PKB then drown in the crowded pool of touch screens??? I know touch screens are the future but as long as you can, you might as well keep your devoted customers.

I remember when they said manual transmissions were a thing of the past... Sure, there's not as many as there once were, but they still make them to this day...

The same argument is made by those who say they should have stayed with BBOS, like BD feels. I don't know either way but I think you either have to move forward or stay where you are, not both.

Z30something

[asherN]

First, there is no so called "BB form factor" or are you not aware that there are rectangular BlackBerry devices available as well?! Second, neither every app nor every game has the need to be widescreen. It's an aspect ratio very well suited for movies and TV shows but why would apps like Instagram, Skype and Snapchat need to be 16:9? Beats me. Furthermore most modern game engines are capable of adapting the native resolution and resize the image without distorting it. There are games running nicely on various devices AND form factors. Third, porting is a task more thoroughly done than just hammering the compiler button especially between Android and iOS.‎

Via Pasta CB10

In a previous life, I wrote software for a living. I'm well aware what porting to multiple platforms entails. That's the point. It does take work. Then springs the idea of 'app neutrality', 'HTML5 is the saviour', etc. All predicated by the idea that there needs to be a way where porting IS clicking the right compiler option. Write Once, Run Many. Remember Java for browser? That was the promise. It was fulfilled to a certain extent, but none of those apps were able to exploit the strengths of the hardware they ran on.

As for form factor, yes I know there are 16:9 BB. But there are also 1:1 BB. I wrote internal apps for my sale force. They had a number of different laptops, with different screen resolutions. Even with re-sizable controls, there reaches a point where a screen cannot be re-sized. Does everything neef to be 16:9? of course not. But the overwhelming majority of phones are. Why would a developer not make use of all that real estate?

[Soapm]

When I think Bentley I think prestige, all powerful, luxury and no compromise. No smartphone is anywhere near that level of prestige, I would say BlackBerry is more of a Saab than a Bentley. Just because its niche doesn't means its a Rolls Royce or a Bentley.

This was my point (finally), BB WAS the Bentley of Phones back in the days of my 7280 but they gave up their edge around the time of the Storm when they tried heavily to compete with Android and iOS with low end devices. Not saying the storm was cheap, only that it was a disaster for the name BB... There were other disasters like determined not to give us a camera when we asked and let's not forget "sure type"...

[Soapm]

Looking at BlackBerry, they obviously aren't a luxury manufacturer and they do not sell their phones for 6 times the ASP of a Samsung/Apple..

You're over analyzing and missing the point, BB WAS the luxury phone manufacturer and you're right, they gave that up trying to compete with low end devices. That was my point, Bentley doesn't try to compete with Chevy, and BB never should have tried to compete with Android... And they're still trying with devices like the LEAP...

[Soapm]

The same argument is made by those who say they should have stayed with BBOS, like BD feels. I don't know either way but I think you either have to move forward or stay where you are, not both.

Z30something

I also felt that way until I learned it was a financial decision. I understand Java went from about $2 per device to about $20 (or something like that)... So leaving Java for a OS they owned now makes sense to me, I just wish they had of left a back door so we can still run our old Java apps but I guess there were implications there I don't know about.

I mean, they already didn't have a lot of apps, now they have even less...

[lnichols]

Step back and you will see what I'm saying, putting a manual transmission in a car doesn't change the gas type like adding a PKB doesn't change the battery in the phone. But it does present an option that might sell another vehicle, and in these days of many options and slim profit margins, you don't start sending your loyal customers to a different manufacturer...

Remember, it was trying to compete with the masses in the low end market with devices like the Storm that knocked BB off the top, you don't fix that by staying in the crowded pool, hoping someone will notice your device, drowning, among the many they DO recognize like Android and iOS. You might as well leave that pool, dry yourself off and find another pool (market) where you stand a chance of being noticed and can again be king...

I'm suggesting they go back to being Bentley, and be content with your less than 1% market share that are proud to be Bentley owners... But to do that, you have to give them the best darn flawless device on the market...

Your analogy fails as soon as you say the Storm, a device solely designed to compete with Apple's iPhone, was chasing after the low end market. Apple is clearly the luxury brand and BlackBerry was the business workhorse. BlackBerry did chase after the low end markets in places like India, Malaysia, Indonesia, and Africa, but with low end PKB devices like the, 85xx, 92xx and 93xx and BIS. These devices cheapened the brand, not the Storm. The only thing the Storm showed is that they were willing to release a horrible phone in both specs and capabilities, at a ridiculous price point, and burn everyone who bought the device by not supporting it. They didn't chase after low end markets with all touch until the Z3.

The other issue you are missing here is that no one advocating for a new high end all touch is saying to abandon PKB, we are saying stop ignoring your biggest BB10 base (all touch) and get a device out. They can build a high end all touch and PKB device, and probably get some economies of scale with parts sharing.

Posted via Z30

[Soulstream]

A very good point of the view, I would like to see developers and BlackBerry's take on this.

Posted via CB10

App dev here. HTML5 is "ok" for cross-paltform app development, but even that has it's limitations. The problem is that unless you force devs to build in a certain programming language, it's not gonna happen.

If we look at the mature desktop market we can see that it hasn't happened in DECADES for one unified and efficient way to write cross-paltform code. Sure, there is JAVA, but that requires a virtual machine and is not well suited for mobile devices. Also most applications for PC are not built in Java (it's more of a server-side language).

[tollfeeder]

As for form factor, yes I know there are 16:9 BB. But there are also 1:1 BB. I wrote internal apps for my sale force. They had a number of different laptops, with different screen resolutions. Even with re-sizable controls, there reaches a point where a screen cannot be re-sized. Does everything neef to be 16:9? of course not. But the overwhelming majority of phones are. Why would a developer not make use of all that real estate?

I'll admit, most (smart)phones surely are widescreen. But if you're talking full estate, i guess it just takes the proper scenario to utilise the whole screen as you can clearly see on the Passport. I mean, it's niche anyhow, isn't it?

[SunshineStateFlyer]

One of the problems, in my opinion, is actually that BlackBerry is kind of stuck in the middle when it comes to strategy.

On one hand they claim to be corporate focused only, on the other hand however, they are still depending on consumers, especially now as both markets are merging and business users expect more than just business capabilities, which also comes down to app availability.

They aren't trying to be in a real niche market, like Vertu is, since they're not diversified enough for that. Yet, they're too diversified for the mass market, as they stick to their own OS.

Posted via CB10