[MarsupilamiX]

I like how you did not even mention my other points such as

1. Ease of universal search with physical keyboard

2. Keyboard shortcuts within apps such as going to top and bottom of page as well as bringing up address bar with keyboard shortcut.

3. The extra accuracy for typing novel names that the keyboard does not know. (person names, street names, passwords, etc)

And added to that the 26 keyboard shortcuts available from the home screen.

I do not want to give a quantified answer on how much time, but it is also not right to dismiss that all these advantages add up to less than a second. You would not know until you try all these.


Posted via CB10

Let's say I gain 1 sec. Let's just assume...

Now when I am on a touchscreen phone, I'll have to scroll and zoom less, simply because of more screen real estate.
How much time do I gain here, compared to a physical keyboard? Scrolling being an integral part of the smartphone experience.

What about high res pics, the 720x720 3 inch display can't even display properly?

Or what about the pleasure of seeing more.
How do you quantify that?
Because I can tell you that it personally makes me unhappier to use a 3 inched screen with a physical keyboard, compared to a 5 inch touchscreen.

I don't even want to use a Q10/Classic/Q5.
How would you quantify that?
I gain 12 secs a day but I make myself uselessly unhappy everytime I pick up my phone.

[pttptppt]

Tried it, does not work (in CB10)

Posted via CB10

Try in the browser

Posted via CB10

[skstrials]

Let's say I gain 1 sec. Let's just assume...

Now when I am on a touchscreen phone, I'll have to scroll and zoom less, simply because of more screen real estate.

Or what about the pleasure of seeing more.
How do you quantify that?
Because I can tell you that it personally makes me unhappier to use a 3 inched screen with a physical keyboard, compared to a 5 inch touchscreen.

I don't even want to use a Q10/Classic/Q5.
How would you quantify that?
I gain 12 secs a day but I make myself uselessly unhappy everytime I pick up my phone.

If you had to zoom in and zoom out on a pkb phone, it would be less effort since you can just use "i" or "o" for going in and out rather than using two fingers to make a gesture and having to hold your phone with other hand.

As I stated before, pkb phone is not for everyone since not everyone needs or wants the extra time efficiency or productivity.

If the screen space is more important to you, than time then of course only a 5 inch screen device will do.

But there are people like me who try to minimize the time looking at the phone to get other things done. And that is who pkb phones are meant for.

Posted via CB10

[Bbnivende]

My opinion is that 99 percent of potential smartphone owners want a phone that requires no specialised knowledge to operate efficiently.

Posted via CB10

[MarsupilamiX]

If you had to zoom in and zoom out on a pkb phone, it would be less effort since you can just use "i" or "o" for going in and out rather than using two fingers and having to hold your phone with other hand.

As I stated before, pkb phone is not for everyone since not everyone needs or wants the extra time efficiency or productivity.

If the screen space is more important to you, than time then of course only a 5 inch screen device will do.

Bit there are people like me who try to minimize the time looking at the phone to get other things done. And that is who pkb phones are meant for.

Posted via CB10

I think you misunderstood.
I have to scroll and zoom on a physical keyboard device, where the touchscreen phone displays the content correctly to begin with.

So every step added, is one unnecessary step for me.

I understand that people like physical keyboards, but you completely undermine your own argument with your last point.
You're not some sort of special user, because you try to minimise the time spend on the phone.
And that thought also isn't constrained to keyboard users.

Why would only keyboard users try to minimise the time uselessly spend on the phone????
What the....

My opinion is that 99 percent of potential smartphone owners want a phone that requires no specialised knowledge to operate efficiently.

Posted via CB10

That's a nicely worded statement and I fully agree.
Keyboard shortcuts fall into that category though.

[anon(9188202)]

My shrink says that the phone that keeps ringing in my head is very interesting..

[donnation]

I like how you did not even mention my other points such as

1. Ease of universal search with physical keyboard

2. Keyboard shortcuts within apps such as going to top and bottom of page as well as bringing up address bar with keyboard shortcut.

3. The extra accuracy for typing novel names that the keyboard does not know. (person names, street names, passwords, etc)

And added to that the 26 keyboard shortcuts (can be contacts, apps, or system action) available from the home screen, in addition to on screen icons.

I do not want to give a quantified answer on how much time is saved, but it is also not right to dismiss that all these advantages add up to less than a second. You would not know until you try all these.



Posted via CB10

Universal search on a Blackberry sucks now because it is the slow BB assistant. I'd argue that universal search on an iPhone is better now. It's quicker and is a simple swipe down from the top of the home screen.

Going to the top and bottom of a page is great, I agree. But is it better than say tapping the top and it automatically scrolling to the top for you?

What extra novelty? You can do the same on a virtual keyboard.

That's fine, you can have 26 actions but no one is going to remember 26 different keyboard shortcuts, it's just not realistic.

[MarsupilamiX]

That's fine, you can have 26 actions but no one is going to remember 26 different keyboard shortcuts, it's just not realistic.

I'm sure BelfastD did

[skstrials]

My opinion is that 99 percent of potential smartphone owners want a phone that requires no specialised knowledge to operate efficiently.

Posted via CB10

That is fair, hence the success of Iphones.

And it does take time to be efficient with physical keyboard and all its shortcuts, which is why you almost never see them used during YouTube reviews of physical keyboard BlackBerry phones. And people just bash physical keyboard phones for their small screens without mentioning their advantages.

The physical keyboard might require the specific knowledge, but that means over the time, you will be more productive and efficient with the keyboard. Whereas those on full touch phones will stay the same without the opportunity to be more efficient with their keyboard functions.

Posted via CB10

[skstrials]

Universal search on a Blackberry sucks now because it is the slow BB assistant. I'd argue that universal search on an iPhone is better now. It's quicker and is a simple swipe down from the top of the home screen.

Going to the top and bottom of a page is great, I agree. But is it better than say tapping the top and it automatically scrolling to the top for you?

What extra novelty? You can do the same on a virtual keyboard.

That's fine, you can have 26 actions but no one is going to remember 26 different keyboard shortcuts, it's just not realistic.

I agree that the search function got worse. However, it still remains true that you do not need to launch a separate app before typing on pkb phones. You can just type what you want from the home screen.

As for going from top to bottom, yes if BlackBerry could implement the tapping that would be great, but keyboard shortcut in the browser goes far more than that. It includes
- Zooming in and out with a keyboard shortcut which negates the need for two finger touch on the screen.
- U for bringing up address bar
- N and P for going forward and back
- T for opening a new tab

As for remembering 26 actions, if you have tried it, you would realize that it is quite easy.
- You are already familiar with the qwerty keyboard layout, therfore you would have a positional memory of where keys are and what the shortcut is for.
- Keys do not just have alphabets. All keys would have numbers or symbols in addition, helping you with your memory.
- Since you are assigning all shortcuts you can customize it to make sense for yourself.
For example, "B" for browser, "M" for Music, "C" for compose, etc
- If you set it up so that 26 actions are daily, often done actions, you get to learn very quickly, within one day.

Posted via CB10

[lnichols]

I like how you did not even mention my other points such as

1. Ease of universal search with physical keyboard

2. Keyboard shortcuts within apps such as going to top and bottom of page as well as bringing up address bar with keyboard shortcut.

3. The extra accuracy for typing novel names that the keyboard does not know. (person names, street names, passwords, etc)

And added to that the 26 keyboard shortcuts (can be contacts, apps, or system action) available from the home screen, in addition to on screen icons.

I do not want to give a quantified answer on how much time is saved, but it is also not right to dismiss that all these advantages add up to less than a second. You would not know until you try all these.



Posted via CB10

1. I hit search then hit the text entry and type in the VKB. That one second you saved is massive.

2. The address bar is always up on the 16x9 devices so we don't need a shortcut to make up for the loss of screen real estate. Also as mentioned those shortcuts work on full touch, you just have to bring up the VKB with the two finger swipe to use them. Since we get more screen we do less scrolling anyway.

3. OK. You can turn off auto correct and do this on VKB device.

As for the shortcuts, OK, I had these when I had a PKB device and I'm not missing them now with PKB. It is a touch optimized OS and I got used to touch with the 9900, and the Z10/30 have me very productive now with 2 full years of use. Was a PKB user from the Treo 600 through the BlackBerry 9900 and had plenty of experience with all of the things you mentioned, and I find the all touch form factor for BB10 to be superior for me. So what you see as advantages, I see as disadvantages in what little if any I lose to have a PKB swallowing up a third or more of screen space. Different strokes for different folks.

Posted via CB10

[MarsupilamiX]

That is fair, hence the success of Iphones.

And it does take time to be efficient with physical keyboard and all its shortcuts, which is why you almost never see them used during YouTube reviews of physical keyboard BlackBerry phones. And people just bash physical keyboard phones for their small screens without mentioning their advantages.

The physical keyboard might require the specific knowledge, but that means over the time, you will be more productive and efficient with the keyboard. Whereas those on full touch phones will stay the same without the opportunity to be more efficient with their keyboard functions.

Posted via CB10

You never saw the touchscreen as a huge user controllable keyboard, with contextsensitive shortcuts changing when needed?

All the things you do on the keyboard, can be done on the touchscreen as well.

I took you seriously until now, but that you honestly think, that people will always be more productive on physical keyboards, just shows that I can't take you seriously concerning that point.

Everything you do on the keyboard, can be done on the touchscreen. Scrolling to the top? If that's an issue, there are apps where you tap the top of the app, and you will get there.
Shouldn't be hard to incorporate that on a OS wide basis.

Being more productive...
I was never more productive on a phone, before I got my HTC One. This includes a BlackBerry Z10, a 9810, and everything since the OG Nokia Communicator. "I had them all". And the touchscreen coupled with business apps, is in a completely different league for me.

But that's not the only difference between us.
I would never dare to tell you that only a touchscreen phone can make you more productive. Simply because it's factually wrong.
Just like it's factually wrong to say that a physical keyboard user will always be more productive.
It's simply wrong.

So I would appreciate it if you leave the overgeneralisation out of your arguments, and also refrain from painting your buying decision as objectively superior to everything else.
You bought a physical keyboard device. It works for you. It's not objectively superior to a touchscreen phone.

[pantlesspenguin]

You would have to type a phrase first for the keyboard to learn the word, isn't that true?

However, there are plenty of occasions when you type a novel street name or person name that keyboard cannot predict OR correct, since it is not memorized in the keyboard yet.



Posted via CB10

Sure, but the same thing is true on a physical keyboard. How is "typing fresh" different between them?

[donnation]

I agree that the search function got worse. However, the it still remains true that you do not need to launch a separate app before typing on pkb phones. You can just type what you want from the home screen.

As for going from top to bottom, yes if BlackBerry could implement the tapping that would be great, but keyboard shortcut in the browser goes far more than that. It includes
- Zooming in and out with a keyboard shortcut which negates the need for two finger touch on the screen.
- U for bringing up address bar
- N and P for going forward and back
- T for opening a new tab

As for remembering 26 actions, if you have tried it, you would realize that it is quite easy.
- You are already familiar with the qwerty keyboard layout, therfore you would have a positional memory of where keys are and what the shortcut is for.
- Keys do not just have alphabets. All keys would have numbers or symbols in addition, helping you with your memory.
- Since you are assigning all shortcuts you can customize it to make sense for yourself.
For example, "B" for browser, "M" for Music, "C" for compose, etc
- If you set it up so that 26 actions are daily, often done actions, you get to learn very quickly, within one day.

Posted via CB10

Since universal search is tied to BB Assistant (which in my opinion is worthless now because of its speed) I don't see how its any type of time saver. I'm only comparing to an iPhone here, but it doesn't need a separate app to search. You simply pull down from the top and start typing and whatever you are looking for will be listed. IMO its faster and more efficient on an iPhone. It used to be the other way around but since BB is forcing people to use Assistant it makes universal search a pain now.

Zooming in and out doesn't have to be a two finger action. Its a double tap on the screen unless you are zooming in deep. Is that really slower than pushing a button?

If you find assigning 26 actions to each button something useful I think that's great, but imo its just not something practical that people will use every day. People don't use the myriad of keyboard shortcuts on a computer because there are too many to remember and I just think that its a little silly to think that 26 different key combinations is something that is going to be used regularly over pushing an icon in the matter of saving time. To each their own though and while we disagree I don't mean to be negative to your posts, I just have a different opinion than you.

[skstrials]

You never saw the touchscreen as a huge user controllable keyboard, with contextsensitive shortcuts changing when needed?

All the things you do on the keyboard, can be done on the touchscreen as well.

I took you seriously until now, but that you honestly think, that people will always be more productive on physical keyboards, just shows that I can't take you seriously concerning that point.

Everything you do on the keyboard, can be done on the touchscreen. Scrolling to the top? If that's an issue, there are apps where you tap the top of the app, and you will get there.
Shouldn't be hard to incorporate that on a OS wide basis.

Being more productive...
I was never more productive on a phone, before I got my HTC One. This includes a BlackBerry Z10, a 9810, and everything since the OG Nokia Communicator. "I had them all". And the touchscreen coupled with business apps, is in a completely different league for me.

But that's not the only difference between us.
I would never dare to tell you that only a touchscreen phone can make you more productive. Simply because it's factually wrong.
Just like it's factually wrong to say that a physical keyboard user will always be more productive.
It's simply wrong.

So I would appreciate it if you leave the overgeneralisation out of your arguments, and also refrain from painting your buying decision as objectively superior to everything else.
You bought a physical keyboard device. It works for you. It's not objectively superior to a touchscreen phone.

I am on my Z10 now. So I am aware of the keyboard coming out with two fingers. However, the keyboard shortcut here is quite meaningless since you would have to bring out the keyboard with two hands in the first place, then do the action, which you cost more time.

As for the productivity, you can go back to my and address my points rather than generalizing that I am generalizing.

Posted via CB10

[skstrials]

Sure, but the same thing is true on a physical keyboard. How is "typing fresh" different between them?

Virtual keyboards have a lot more intrusive auto correct that helps when you are typing normally, which is good when you are typing everyday phrases, but it is an hindrance when you are "typing fresh" since you have to be extra accurate with the keyboard.

Posted via CB10

[pantlesspenguin]

Virtual keyboards have a lot more intrusive auto correct that helps when you are typing normally, which is good when you are typing everyday phrases, but it is an hindrance when you are "typing fresh" since you have to be extra accurate with the keyboard.

Posted via CB10

Not really. I type normally no matter what I'm doing. If I'm typing a unique name or address and SwiftKey is trying to autocorrect it, I simply tap the left box on top of the keyboard which will enter exactly what I typed instead of the middle autocorrected option.

ETA: Usually if the word/name is unique enough it won't even try to autocorrect it to something else.

[MarsupilamiX]

I am on my Z10 now. So I am aware of the keyboard coming out with two fingers. However, the keyboard shortcut here is quite meaningless since you would have to bring out the keyboard with two hands in the first place, then do the action, which you cost more time.

As for the productivity, you can go back to my and address my points rather than generalizing that I am generalizing.

Posted via CB10

I think you misquoted me.
I wasn't the one talking about the keyboard on the Z10. I simply said that tapping the top of a lot of apps will bring you to the top.

Your productivity arguments are non-existent. The other 3 people and me should have made that clear.
Everything you do on the keyboard, I can do more efficiently on a touchscreen phone.
(Edit: This doesn't mean that you will be faster or more productive or happier when you use a touchscreen phone. That's why your generalisation annoyed me. I won't tell you that you need a touchscreen phone to be productive. I would therefore appreciate it if you can do the same, with the physical keyboard. It works for you. It doesn't work for me and a lot of other people. End of the story)

The only point I can't contradict are keyboard shortcuts, because they are a preference. I don't like them. I don't think in keyboard shortcuts, I think in concepts. And an icon fits my way of working better.

You completely ignore that you will zoom far less on a touchscreen than on a keyboard phone.
Double tap to zoom doesn't take substantially longer than pressing a key I won't even remember (meaning that double tapping is faster for me).

Like Donnation said, search is a non argument.

What else? Scrolling? I prefer scrolling on a touchscreen because I can scroll exactly as much as I want. Scrolling in increments of button presses is not fluid and usually makes me waste time because I have to correct the amount that was scrolled.

Going to the top? I tap the top of an app and I'll be there.

I honestly don't know what to tell you more, because you have a preconceived notion, of physical keyboard users always being more productive, yet you can't even understand that this is simply not true, depending on the workflow one has and how efficient an OS is.

I absolutely love shortcuts on the PC, because they work there.
They make sense, because when I write, I have both hands on the keyboard and none on the mouse or the screen.
When I have my phone, the touchscreen is a huge context sensitive keyboard AND screen.

But yes, I'll stop here, because I have the feeling that you simply won't understand that I am more productive on a touchscreen, than on a keyboard phone.
And that's after using smartphones since the OG Nokia Communicator.

I hope that you have fun with your keyboard phone, and that maybe one day, you'll understand that you aren't better or more intelligent, because you use a physical keyboard on your smartphone.

Virtual keyboards have a lot more intrusive auto correct that helps when you are typing normally, which is good when you are typing everyday phrases, but it is an hindrance when you are "typing fresh" since you have to be extra accurate with the keyboard.

Posted via CB10

Just to clarify:
Are you talking about heat maps, or about auto-correct?

[skstrials]

Please correct me if I am wrong. I own a Z10 and a Q10, so I have tried both styles of phones.

Universal Search:
On my Z10 on 10.3.1, I actually have to click first the search button THEN again on the actual word box to type.
I do not to understand how this is as easy as simply starting typing on my Q10?

Keyboard Shortcuts:
My Z10 has slots for 20 app icons from the home screen.
My Q10 has room for 15. With the added keyboard shortcuts, I can have access to over 40 actions straight from the home screen (combined with the 15 app icons).
Whether you use this feature or not, it is available if you want.


Call me what you want, but these points are true.

Posted via CB10

[slagman5]

Try in the browser

Posted via CB10

My keyboard shortcuts work in just about every native app, and doesn't require an extra step to get to them, all done one-handed and on the move...

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

[MarsupilamiX]

Please correct me if I am wrong. I own a Z10 and a Q10, so I have tried both styles of phones.

Universal Search:
On my Z10 on 10.3.1, I actually have to click first the search button THEN again on the actual work box to type.
I do not to understand how this is as easy as simply starting typing on my Q10?

Keyboard Shortcuts:
My Z10 has slots for 20 app icons from the home screen.
My Q10 has room for 15. With the added keyboard shortcuts, I can have access to over 40 actions straight from the home screen (combined with the 15 app icons).
Whether you use this feature or not, it is available of you want.


Call me what you want, but these points are true.

Posted via CB10

Everything necessary has already been said in the last few posts.

The TLDR version?
What works for you, doesn't work for everyone else. And no, you aren't special or more intelligent because you use a keyboard phone.

In case of further questions, I advise to reread the previous posts.

My keyboard shortcuts work in just about every native app, and doesn't require an extra step to get to them, all done one-handed and on the move...

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

It's great that it works for you.
Now let's ask the important question:

Would you tell me that it's impossible for me to be more productive and efficient on a touchscreen phone, compared to a keyboard phone?

[slagman5]

I'm sure BelfastD did

With enough use, remembering 26 shortcuts is cake. I remembered the entire periodic table after taking Chemistry class for a few weeks back when I was in college, for example...

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

[donnation]

Please correct me if I am wrong. I own a Z10 and a Q10, so I have tried both styles of phones.

Universal Search:
On my Z10 on 10.3.1, I actually have to click first the search button THEN again on the actual word box to type.
I do not to understand how this is as easy as simply starting typing on my Q10?

Keyboard Shortcuts:
My Z10 has slots for 20 app icons from the home screen.
My Q10 has room for 15. With the added keyboard shortcuts, I can have access to over 40 actions straight from the home screen (combined with the 15 app icons).
Whether you use this feature or not, it is available if you want.


Call me what you want, but these points are true.

Posted via CB10

On a Blackberry yes, your universal search point is correct. But with both phone if using either a pkb or a vkb you are still launching the Assistant app which takes a ridiculous amount of time to process things. And pushing the search icon is one button press less than typing it on your keyboard. While it may be a fraction of a second faster its really not something that is measurable in saving time.

This discussion is similar to those who say that having no home button saves time. It really doesn't. Whether your are pushing a button or swiping the screen its still an action and neither one saves time over the other.

[donnation]

all done one-handed and on the move...

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

You must be using a Q10 or Classic then because that's not being done on a Passport.

[MarsupilamiX]

With enough use, remembering 26 shortcuts is cake. I remembered the entire periodic table after taking Chemistry class for a few weeks back when I was in college, for example...

Posted without the aid of AutoCorrect with my physical keyboard via CB10

And I know a gazillion shortcuts in I don't know how many PC programs.
I also remember the content of some thousand books and when I go to the grocery store, I don't need a list.

Doesn't change the fact that I work less efficient when using keyboard shortcuts on a phone.
They are simply unnecessary, because the whole touchscreen is a big fat context sensitive "shortcut".

While you press a letter, I press an Icon. And when the letter you need to type is located on the top of the keyboard, I'll probably be faster than you, if my corresponding icon is on the bottom.

It's not naturally more efficient. And as someone who used smartphones before people even knew how they will be called, I can assure that I know how I work with smartphones, keys, different OS and a touchscreen.

It's just completely wrong to say that a keyboard is objectively more efficient. It's a preference, nothing more and nothing less.
Touchscreens dominate the business world. A world that works because people are efficient and productive. And I still wouldn't say that you need a touchscreen phone to be productive per se. Simply, because it's a preference. Something that 99.9% of the people prefer. But I still wouldn't do it.